Vaughters confirms past doping by Danielson, others at Garmin

[Benotti69]

Has Vaughter's confirmed anything in regards to Weltz?

 

[webvan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12...

I think.

Ok but why was that story about to be put in the "rubbish bin"? I reread it and it makes sense to me? The previous comment made me think that he had been taken to task by someone.

 

[dadane]

Dead on! ...

I think back to the kids in my year at school and I know of at least 5 of only 150 using PEDs at age 14. OK, they were all into boxing and weightlifting, but the availiblity was astonishing, and they considered it perfectly normal, because the coaches at the clubs and gyms were encouraging it. Do not under-estimate the scale of the problem at grass roots level.

PS. I went to school in a location in Greater London. No further geo details available... !

 

[thingswelike]

I don't get it
Someone posted this on Velonews at the bottom of the news article refering to JV's Clinic revelations:

Dennis Cudworth · Top Commenter
Thomas, what should happen now is that JV and the other riders should be suspended.

Then Joe Papp responded with this!

Joe Papp · Top Commenter · Pittsburgh
Agree w/ you 100% Dennis. If USADA hopes to maintain even a hint of legitimacy around its persecution of Armstrong, then they must immediately acknowledge being aware of these serious allegations and confirm the existence of active cases for anti-doping violations against each of the named riders.

But surely (as Joe surely knows) USADA have held testimonies/confessions for a good while now from these very riders and JV.
Plus, immunity deals aside, they would probably have a case of doping under duress, given that JB/moral/ferrari/etc are all being prosecuted for distribution and how quickly they leapt to a clean team.

Issuing a statement about these guys might be wise, but going after them? What's that going to do?

 

[fishtacos]

Not to pile on Tommy D, but wouldn't this thread be the appropriate place to have the picture of him with Dr. Ferrari at their training camp? I looked for it but couldn't find it, yet.

Anyone have a copy?

 

[TomasC]

Still can't believe that he called out Danielson. After a few brief conversations about him with HWSBN, I thought for sure that he was clean. What a disappointent.
Now it appears that things were possibly not all that lily white with Chipotle/Slipstream.
Was TD using with Disco or with JV's team?

Have you seen this by Steve Tilford?

 

[Benotti69]

Have you seen this by Steve Tilford?

Any body know whether Tiford is BSing, although he does back up his article with results!

It also points to JVs playing the game of sitting on the fence and jumping down to whatever side suits his PR at the time.

If Tilfords assesment is write it backs up what i beleive about Garmin doping to the maximum 'human' levels that only a few can attain, ie the LeMonds. The rest have to dope to get to LeMond maximum level.

 

[webvan]

Have you seen this by Steve Tilford?

Wow, that's sickening if true, what he did, what JV is now saying, something's not right here and I guess JV has more of a vested interest...

Good point made in a comment over there, why didn't the guys who were getting cheated get on his case instead of turning their head the other way. I don't that...were they also taking "stuff" that didn't work as well, there must be a reasonable explanation!

 

[Bumeington]

Have you seen this by Steve Tilford?

Wtf? Have I read this correctly. He says 3rd and then 2nd for Danielson in collegiate MTB, and then calls that being beaten up and makes out it's a huge change that he's suddenly winning

 

[workingclasshero]

Congratulations to all the posters in the Jakscke thread who caused the story to spill.

The Clinic proves it is better at the CN reporting/interrogation than the CN website

In closing, I really feel so sorry Tommy D couldn't write his own sob story of dreaming of being a pro bike rider as he rode his tricycle as a kid , awwweeee...

Next up, UCI to force pro riders to be interrogated by the Clinic posters when posting up a odd Blood test!

Clinic : 1
CN Reports & JV: 0

to be fair though JV knew exactly what he was doing, so I think he scores three points.

 

[the big ring]

Wtf? Have I read this correctly. He says 3rd and then 2nd for Danielson in collegiate MTB, and then calls that being beaten up and makes out it's a huge change that he's suddenly winning

And whilst Danielson averaged 40MPH for the timetrial, he was only 10-30 seconds in front of 2nd to 10th.

Hang on. 40mph.

But still, that's not that much better than the other guys. 5% more power for 2nd place up to 17% more power for 10th place to do the same time as Danielson.

38% more power for the author, Steve Tilford, to do the same time as Danielson. Ouch.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road.php?id=road/2003/jun03/naturevalley03/naturevalley032

1 Tom Danielson (USA) Saturn Cycling Team 9.08?
2 Viktor Rapinski (Blr) Saturn Cycling Team 0.10
3 John Lieswyn (USA) 7-Up/Maxxis 0.13
4 Adam Bergman (USA) Jelly Belly 0.20
5 Mark Mcmormack (USA) Saturn Cycling Team 0.21
6 Trent Klasna (USA) Saturn Cycling Team
7 Peter Knudsen (USA) Schroeder Iron 0.27
8 Aaron Olson (USA) Schroeder Iron
9 Dylan Sebel (USA) Broadmark Capital 0.29
10 Henk Vogels (Aus) Navigators 0.30

 

[ToreBear]

true, but why danielson

logic says that vdv and Z are about to be named by usada anyway in their widely expected 'reasoned decision'...what is danielsen's connection to armstrong case ?

Johan Bruyneel and the upcomming arbitration?

 

[Bavarianrider]

Vaughters is almost as bad als Holzer in terms of lying.
Or should i say good.
What a complete joke of a human being he is.

 

[hiero2]

On the subject of ethical/good behaviour. I see that Laura Weislo had no problem tweeting the story to Tom Danielson and Dekker.

https://twitter.com/Laura_Weislo/status/243454198254030848

Which looks like putting the knife into someone?

Then there's Laura's piece on the "Stinging response to USADA" and then this

https://twitter.com/Laura_Weislo/status/243456582577451009

Quote:
@dnlbenson Someone's on verbal Ipecac.

I'm a bit confused out about where she's coming from.

I'm a bit confused about where benson is coming from on that one - is he referring to Laura or to JV? Meh - both could be righteously accused of being verbally overenthusiastic. Laura's tweets definitely look like "intent to cause bodily harm".

Some people get off on creating chaos and damage tho. I am reminded of one poster here that I sent a pm to, questioning some things the poster said. I thought they were quite, hmmm, strange. He admitted he often posted outrageous stuff just to watch the **** fly. I can't live like that, but some folks do.

Speaking of throwing stuff out there, tho. Can we speculate on the identity of another forum poster? Certain names and behaviors seem very coincidental.

 

[webvan]

Really, got anything to back up your claim?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Wait, you guys really think that Vaughters "accidentally" revealed this info?

Really? After years and years of keeping secret, he's suddenly undone on the CN message boards?

Seriously, people. Vaughters is a smart guy. He knows what he's doing. I thought it was very nice of him to come on here to explain things. He didn't reveal anything earth-shattering anyway. It was just the equivalent of confirming that the sun rises in the east.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I find Weislo calling for a truth and reconciliation committee to be hilarious. Is she going to include herself in this?

Not once have I seen her reflect on her actions, on the way in which she has written about doping.

Talk about a fellow-traveller.

Weislo is part of the problem not the solution.

 

[hiero2]

Any body know whether Tiford is BSing, although he does back up his article with results!

It also points to JVs playing the game of sitting on the fence and jumping down to whatever side suits his PR at the time.

If Tilfords assesment is write it backs up what i beleive about Garmin doping to the maximum 'human' levels that only a few can attain, ie the LeMonds. The rest have to dope to get to LeMond maximum level.

I don't think Tilford is BSing.

However, I do think he is letting his dislike of TD color his current judgement of both TD and JV. Even if you buy into what he tries to convince us of, and what he apparently believes - he believes that Tom Danielson was a massive doper. We have Steve saying TD doped. JV is saying TD doped. They agree. They don't seem to agree on how much, but they agree. It doesn't mean that JV isn't right in thinking he could ride clean, and it doesn't prove that he isn't riding clean today. We have Tilford's intuitive belief that TD CAN'T ride clean as proof, that is all. Otherwise, The real question then, is can TD be riding clean today? For all we have here, the only thing that will give us heads or tails is how much we like and trust TD and JV. A popularity contest, nothing more.

Personally, I think the power data and bio passport data support what JV says - the peloton is cleaner, possibly cleaner than it has been in over 20 years. Notice I do not say CLEAN. You know I do not expect it to ever be clean. I just want cleaner - so a rider without steroids or O2 vector can ride and win.

 

[sniper]

I don't think Tilford is BSing.

However, I do think he is letting his dislike of TD color his current judgement of both TD and JV. Even if you buy into what he tries to convince us of, and what he apparently believes - he believes that Tom Danielson was a massive doper. We have Steve saying TD doped. JV is saying TD doped. They agree. They don't seem to agree on how much, but they agree. It doesn't mean that JV isn't right in thinking he could ride clean, and it doesn't prove that he isn't riding clean today. We have Tilford's intuitive belief that TD CAN'T ride clean as proof, that is all. Otherwise, The real question then, is can TD be riding clean today? For all we have here, the only thing that will give us heads or tails is how much we like and trust TD and JV. A popularity contest, nothing more.

Personally, I think the power data and bio passport data support what JV says - the peloton is cleaner, possibly cleaner than it has been in over 20 years. Notice I do not say CLEAN. You know I do not expect it to ever be clean. I just want cleaner - so a rider without steroids or O2 vector can ride and win.

hands together for Tilford, calling a spade a spade.
damage control is all JV has on his mind these days.
the number of dodgy figures on his team is rising with the day (not including our friend Inigo, nota bene). He knows coming clean en masse is the only way out, because everything is gonna be out in the open soon anyway, and denying a la Weltz is not an option anymore because the tides are turning. By denying, Weltz is saying: we're still there doping full throttle. Vaughters knows this is an alarming situation and is taking corresponding steps to control the damage.
I'm not sure why Prentice's email isn't more often brought to the fore. The perception is reality theme. That's Garmin's motto alright.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

hands together for Tilford, calling a spade a spade.
damage control is all JV has on his mind these days.
the number of dodgy figures on his team is rising with the day (not including our friend Inigo, nota bene). He knows coming clean en masse is the only way out, because everything is gonna be out in the open soon anyway, and denying a la Weltz is another way of saying: we're still there doping full throttle.
I'm not sure why Prentice's email isn't more often brought to the fore. The perception is reality theme. That's Garmin's motto alright.

Maybe Prentice's email ought to be in your sig

 

[hiero2]

Wait, you guys really think that Vaughters "accidentally" revealed this info?

Really? After years and years of keeping secret, he's suddenly undone on the CN message boards?

Seriously, people. Vaughters is a smart guy. He knows what he's doing. I thought it was very nice of him to come on here to explain things. He didn't reveal anything earth-shattering anyway. It was just the equivalent of confirming that the sun rises in the east.

"Accidentally" - yes and no. I believe he realized that there is less harm in such a revelation than there would have been even 6 months ago, and possibly even some good. All the people pointing out that this could be beneficial PR are not wrong. But still, imo, JV did not sit down with a premeditated thought "I am going to out CVV, TD, etc tonight". If he was going to do it intentionally, it would have happened two questions earlier. Every time he has come here and dropped some cherry bomb, he has been prodded first. To think that he can forecast the prodding is way too Machiavellian for real life. I've known real spin artists who didn't think that deep. To think that he TOOK ADVANTAGE of the prodding would be very realistic. Even though it would still be dangerous, since it could have blown up, JV would have some idea in the back of his mind where the ball might end up. After all, he has been talking to the people he "outed" - he should have some idea of where they stand. He also has inside knowledge of upcoming events that we might know less of.

But taking advantage of an opportunity is a much different kettle of fish. JV has adequately demonstrated over the years that he can have a big mouth. That he allows himself to demonstrate his big mouth when it looks to do what Tilford said - protect his team and his riders - demonstrates good managerial sense, not a diabolical schemer.

But if his mouth was so big that he let drop jewels like he did WITHOUT knowing in the back of his mind that the individuals were probably ok with it, then I don't think he would be in the position he is in. He would never have gotten this far.

 

[Deagol]

To me he's confirming it all on twitter - no problem with riders. It's a another carefully sculpted admission to dull the impact of the USADA hurricane.

Whether you think it was a mistake or planned doesn't really matter, it was a big blow to the Omerta. I was really annoyed when only a couple of current pro's spoke out after Lance accepted his punishment. JV's admission is a great sign. It really is up to the fans and journalists now to keep the pressure on and get the clean out that's needed. Short term bad for cycling's reputation - Long term its the only way forward.

Armstrong and McQuaid's worst ****ing nightmare is a rogue JV deciding Martyrdom is the way forward. For that reason alone this whole situation is brilliant.

Thanks JV - no apologies needed whatsover.

yes, yes, and yes !

 

[sniper]

Maybe Prentice's email ought to be in your sig

I know I know. I'm after JV too much. but goodness me... I'm just counterbalancing all the "thank you JV, love you JV" posts in here.

too bad we never heard from that cyclingleaks poster again.
any idea who that may have been?

 

[hrotha]

I agree with hiero. It should be remembered that *we* were the ones who brought up Vande Velde, Zabriskie and other ex-Posties/Discoveries and asking what the difference between them and Jaksche was.

But maybe there's a mole among us.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Calling Alanis Morrisette

Talk about ironic. JV gossiping about TD, CVV and DZ while telling us that one of the reasons why he wouldn't hire JJ was because he gossiped too much.