Vaughters dilemma?

Mar 13, 2009
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what happens when Wiggins scores a dominant second in the Tour in 2010, on an Armstrong program?

JV will be a little aggrieved one assumes.

Does Garmin still attempt to do it ethically? Or do they dispense with all practical restrictions, and the facade?

I see a parallel with Obama. There is no change in his first term. He is still seeking to build consensus and constituencies to enact a change which may or may not come. What happens if General Petraeus is commander in chief for the second term which never comes?

I reckon a dominant Wiggins may force JV to dispense with all the superficial and pragmatic actions and fully subvert professed ideals. Then one can question what are ideals if they vanish when they fail to stand up to test.
 
blackcat said:
what happens when Wiggins scores a dominant second in the Tour in 2010, on an Armstrong program?

JV will be a little aggrieved one assumes.

Does Garmin still attempt to do it ethically? Or do they dispense with all practical restrictions, and the facade?

I see a parallel with Obama. There is no change in his first term. He is still seeking to build consensus and constituencies to enact a change which may or may not come. What happens if General Petraeus is commander in chief for the second term which never comes?

I reckon a dominant Wiggins may force JV to dispense with all the superficial and pragmatic actions and fully subvert professed ideals. Then one can question what are ideals if they vanish when they fail to stand up to test.

Given the course for this year's tour, I think that Wiggins will have to be doped out of his mind to even finish in the top 5, let alone a dominant second.
 
blackcat said:
what happens when Wiggins scores a dominant second in the Tour in 2010, on an Armstrong program?

He won't. Wiggins was no doubt already on a "program" to improve as much as he did to 5th on the GC. This year was not a very strong field and had 3 contenders out of form as well - I don't predict Wiggins will ever do as well on GC as he did this year. He's like a weak Cadel Evans or Leechheimer on the climbs - he can barely even follow wheels.

But yes I agree with you on your take on JV. He is just another in a long line of people who tried to change the system and do things their way. He wanted to create a "clean" team and prove that a team clean could do well. It couldn't; Vaughters failed. He was broken by the stronger force of the entrenched system and was coopted by it.
 
Nov 21, 2009
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BikeCentric said:
He won't. Wiggins was no doubt already on a "program" to improve as much as he did to 5th on the GC ...

That would be the British Olympic cycling program ... the same one which saw the UK walk away with all the medals while avoiding any doping issues. That was what you were referring to ?
 
Mar 10, 2009
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yarp

Wiggins move just reeks of "take the money and run" and I agree with the earlier post - of course he's on a "program".

With proven liars like Nygaard (nice work defending Riis in earlier years) at work, Sky won't be all they're professing to be.

Poor Brailsford....good intentions, but naive.
 
Tranquil said:
Actually, it was what you were referring to ... You just didn't know.

Nothing to be embarrassed about.

I guess I have to spell it out for you. He rode the TDF for Garmin. His being part of the British Olympic Track team had zero to do with his efforts at the TDF. As a matter of fact, his track training was actually detrimental to his Grand Tour training. He had to lose a lot of weight to climb with the front group, weight that helps him on a flat track in the Pursuit.

I'm sorry I had to spell that out for you. And frankly, I could care less that your silly track team managed to not get busted at the most recent Olympics. That doesn't mean jack to me given the current state of the sport.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Tranquil said:
That would be the British Olympic cycling program ... the same one which saw the UK walk away with all the medals while avoiding any doping issues. That was what you were referring to ?

Almost avoiding.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Tranquil said:
That would be the British Olympic cycling program ... the same one which saw the UK walk away with all the medals while avoiding any doping issues. That was what you were referring to ?

..uh, yea.....you guys are the only clean ones...:rolleyes:
 
BikeCentric said:
He won't. Wiggins was no doubt already on a "program" to improve as much as he did to 5th on the GC. This year was not a very strong field and had 3 contenders out of form as well - I don't predict Wiggins will ever do as well on GC as he did this year. He's like a weak Cadel Evans or Leechheimer on the climbs - he can barely even follow wheels.

But yes I agree with you on your take on JV. He is just another in a long line of people who tried to change the system and do things their way. He wanted to create a "clean" team and prove that a team clean could do well. It couldn't; Vaughters failed. He was broken by the stronger force of the entrenched system and was coopted by it.

You don't think putting two riders in the top eight of GC and finishing second in the TTT is doing well in your second year at the TDF?
 
I tend to agree with BikeCentric. I think Vaughters had, and probably still has good intentions. But the lure to at the very least look the other direction in the face of what is obviously going on elsewhere, in order that your team can get results as well, would have to be impossible to fight, resist.

In a sense, I think Riis may have been like this at one point. Maybe. Where he hoped to start a system to curb doping, but that proved to be impossible and still have his riders finish races, let alone win. To me, it's highly likely Riis eventually facilitated helping dope his own riders, likely in the hope that it could be done minimally, discreetly, without harming them, or having them go out on their own and get caught, or worse. With JV, my gut tells me he's sitting on a fence where he can talk with Dan Martin or David Millar and support their anti-doping stance, while looking away with others, giving them leeway to do what doping they need to do to get results. All while reminding everyone, "it's not possible to watch over them all day", and that he has riders like Martin and Millar on his team, whom he honestly supports.

In a sense, I really can't completely blame him if that's the case. We all pretty much agree doping is still a very big problem across the entire sport. And his riders likely aren't completely jacked, and if he had a super strict, super clean team, they'd never get results and often not even finish races.

JV has posted on here before and was a little peeved by some of our criticisms and viewed us as being somewhat cynical, but he also left a little sooner than time allowed for him to answer some serious questions that were probably more detailed and insightful than he anticipated. I'd love it if he had the grit to come on here and hammer this one out as well.
 
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Anonymous

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Alpe d'Huez said:
I tend to agree with BikeCentric. I think Vaughters had, and probably still has good intentions. But the lure to at the very least look the other direction in the face of what is obviously going on elsewhere, in order that your team can get results as well, would have to be impossible to fight, resist.

In a sense, I think Riis may have been like this at one point. Maybe. Where he hoped to start a system to curb doping, but that proved to be impossible and still have his riders finish races, let alone win. To me, it's highly likely Riis eventually facilitated helping dope his own riders, likely in the hope that it could be done minimally, discreetly, without harming them, or having them go out on their own and get caught, or worse. With JV, my gut tells me he's sitting on a fence where he can talk with Dan Martin or David Millar and support their anti-doping stance, while looking away with others, giving them leeway to do what doping they need to do to get results. All while reminding everyone, "it's not possible to watch over them all day", and that he has riders like Martin and Millar on his team, whom he honestly supports.

In a sense, I really can't completely blame him if that's the case. We all pretty much agree doping is still a very big problem across the entire sport. And his riders likely aren't completely jacked, and if he had a super strict, super clean team, they'd never get results and often not even finish races.

JV has posted on here before and was a little peeved by some of our criticisms and viewed us as being somewhat cynical, but he also left a little sooner than time allowed for him to answer some serious questions that were probably more detailed and insightful than he anticipated. I'd love it if he had the grit to come on here and hammer this one out as well.

He made it clear that we were a bunch of nobodys who barely deserved a response from someone as vaunted as is he. I don't expect him back anytime soon.
 
A

Anonymous

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Race Radio said:
At least one question was answered by Wiggins departure. Remember when Wiggins was making all those lame comments and many people thought he was being an A$$. Our UK friends jumped in and explained that he was just "Taking the pi$$" and it was all a kind hearted joke.

Know we know he was actually being an A$$

Why? There is nothing there that suggests that. Just the normal regret and awkwardness when a rider leaves a team.
 
woodburn said:
You don't think putting two riders in the top eight of GC and finishing second in the TTT is doing well in your second year at the TDF?
He (Bikecentric) is not arguing that He was not succesful in the Tour de France results. He is saying that he failed to prove everyone that a clean Team could be succesful in a dirty system.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Great White said:
Why? There is nothing there that suggests that. Just the normal regret and awkwardness when a rider leaves a team.

Perhaps I did not explain my position correctly.

Earlier this year Wiggins took some pot shots at Gramin. It was dismissed as just his sense of humor. Now we know it was because he was taking a shot at Gramin and JV, he wasn't' joking
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
I tend to agree with BikeCentric. I think Vaughters had, and probably still has good intentions. But the lure to at the very least look the other direction in the face of what is obviously going on elsewhere, in order that your team can get results as well, would have to be impossible to fight, resist.

In a sense, I think Riis may have been like this at one point. Maybe. Where he hoped to start a system to curb doping, but that proved to be impossible and still have his riders finish races, let alone win. To me, it's highly likely Riis eventually facilitated helping dope his own riders, likely in the hope that it could be done minimally, discreetly, without harming them, or having them go out on their own and get caught, or worse. With JV, my gut tells me he's sitting on a fence where he can talk with Dan Martin or David Millar and support their anti-doping stance, while looking away with others, giving them leeway to do what doping they need to do to get results. All while reminding everyone, "it's not possible to watch over them all day", and that he has riders like Martin and Millar on his team, whom he honestly supports.

In a sense, I really can't completely blame him if that's the case. We all pretty much agree doping is still a very big problem across the entire sport. And his riders likely aren't completely jacked, and if he had a super strict, super clean team, they'd never get results and often not even finish races.

JV has posted on here before and was a little peeved by some of our criticisms and viewed us as being somewhat cynical, but he also left a little sooner than time allowed for him to answer some serious questions that were probably more detailed and insightful than he anticipated. I'd love it if he had the grit to come on here and hammer this one out as well.
your grammar was **** poor Alpe, but I will looking past it :D

Martin was second to Valverde in Catalunya. Was Martin the true winner, or are glasses a little rose colouring lenses. Excuse my grammar.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Grilled said:
Wiggins move just reeks of "take the money and run" and I agree with the earlier post - of course he's on a "program".

With proven liars like Nygaard (nice work defending Riis in earlier years) at work, Sky won't be all they're professing to be.

Poor Brailsford....good intentions, but naive.
good intentions my a$$. He has promised a TDF win in 5 years. Brailsford ain't dat naive.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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BikeCentric said:
He won't. Wiggins was no doubt already on a "program" to improve as much as he did to 5th on the GC. This year was not a very strong field and had 3 contenders out of form as well - I don't predict Wiggins will ever do as well on GC as he did this year. He's like a weak Cadel Evans or Leechheimer on the climbs - he can barely even follow wheels.

But yes I agree with you on your take on JV. He is just another in a long line of people who tried to change the system and do things their way. He wanted to create a "clean" team and prove that a team clean could do well. It couldn't; Vaughters failed. He was broken by the stronger force of the entrenched system and was coopted by it.
I disagree Wiggins was on a big program like Kohl. Wiggins was boosted, we can see that in his bloodwork from ACE or whomever JV was using.

But he was not on the 3 intra Tour transfusions plus an initial transfusion like Bernie Kohl. *

Asterisk, Bernie had his final transfusion screwed by one of Matschiner's underlings.

Wiggins has ALOT of ceiling to work with, in his medical program.

And on one stage where Schleck and Contador were away, he was the first to attack the remainding group, and attempt to bridge. He could not maintain the gap on StrongArm, but Wiggo DID attack the group. That convinced me, all was not what we were told it was.

So Wiggo did attack the remaining leaders, if you consider it an attack, and he still have muh more potential with his medical program. That is where the gains lie. He will be better in the mtns next year. Tweak training, invigorate the medical support under Brailsford. Watch Wiggo fly.

I said it here first folks.
 
Race Radio said:
Perhaps I did not explain my position correctly.

Earlier this year Wiggins took some pot shots at Gramin. It was dismissed as just his sense of humor. Now we know it was because he was taking a shot at Gramin and JV, he wasn't' joking

Who's Gramin? I think Wiggins is nuts if he believes that Sky will be as strong in support of a GC contender as Garmin. I think he wanted out for the money and because he is afraid the American team would favor the American GC man in VdV over himself when it came to it.