Vaughters dilemma?

[Tranquil]

I guess I have to spell it out for you. He rode the TDF for Garmin. His being part of the British Olympic Track team had zero to do with his efforts at the TDF. As a matter of fact, his track training was actually detrimental to his Grand Tour training. He had to lose a lot of weight to climb with the front group, weight that helps him on a flat track in the Pursuit.

I'm sorry I had to spell that out for you. And frankly, I could care less that your silly track team managed to not get busted at the most recent Olympics. That doesn't mean jack to me given the current state of the sport.

At least you managed to avoid any more embarrassing doping references. Good job.

Best avoid complex subject areas which nobody really understands, apart from those on the front line.

 

[Anonymous]

I guess I have to spell it out for you. He rode the TDF for Garmin. His being part of the British Olympic Track team had zero to do with his efforts at the TDF. As a matter of fact, his track training was actually detrimental to his Grand Tour training. He had to lose a lot of weight to climb with the front group, weight that helps him on a flat track in the Pursuit.

I'm sorry I had to spell that out for you. And frankly, I could care less that your silly track team managed to not get busted at the most recent Olympics. That doesn't mean jack to me given the current state of the sport.

but it was the doctor, and staff at british cycling who developed his weight loss program and everything else, Roger Palfreeman, Steve Peters and the rest of them... so his efforts at the tour de france had one hell of a lot to do with team GB. sorry to spell that out for you..

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

JV made it clear that we were a bunch of nobodys who barely deserved a response from someone as vaunted as is he. I don't expect him back anytime soon.

I actually think he was taken a bit back by how pointed and detailed a lot of people on this forum were in their knowledge of doping and the inner workings of the sport, and that they weren't afraid to say so.

your grammar was **** poor Alpe, but I will looking past it

What is, this, the 2nd grade?

Good point on Martin, btw. He does talk a good game though, eh?! But then again, as I pointed out about 100x on here, Richard Virenque, Bjarne Riis, LA and many others have spoken out against doping.

 

[frenchfry]

I actually think he was taken a bit back by how pointed and detailed a lot of people on this forum were in their knowledge of doping and the inner workings of the sport, and that they weren't afraid to say so.



What is, this, the 2nd grade?

Good point on Martin, btw. He does talk a good game though, eh?! But then again, as I pointed out about 100x on here, Richard Virenque, Bjarne Riis, LA and many others have spoken out against doping.

Virenque has spoken out against doping? I must have missed that one.

Generally he has enough trouble putting a comprehensible sentence together, much less taking a stand on a given subject.

I never really even had the impression he admitted to doping, more that he stopped denying when it became so ridiculous that he had to.

 

[red_explosions]

At least you managed to avoid any more embarrassing doping references. Good job.

Best avoid complex subject areas which nobody really understands, apart from those on the front line.

Contrary to popular opinion, doping practices are pretty easy to understand. Hence the need for those who facilitate these practices to come up with all sorts of BS smoke and mirrors to throw the gullible off the scent.

Look at the plethora of lame excuses provided for suspicious performances - he's dehydrated; on a special diet; uses a better cadence; more psychologically motivated; taking this, that and the other supplement etc. etc. Anyone with a basic knowledge of physiology could blow holes in these arguments. Unfortunately most people don't have this, so enough people get fooled by the garbage that's spouted, enough to keep the show on the road.

 

[Galic Ho]

what happens when Wiggins scores a dominant second in the Tour in 2010, on an Armstrong program?

JV will be a little aggrieved one assumes.

Does Garmin still attempt to do it ethically? Or do they dispense with all practical restrictions, and the facade?

I reckon a dominant Wiggins may force JV to dispense with all the superficial and pragmatic actions and fully subvert professed ideals. Then one can question what are ideals if they vanish when they fail to stand up to test.

Bike Centric expressed the matter this way:

He won't. Wiggins was no doubt already on a "program" to improve as much as he did to 5th on the GC. This year was not a very strong field and had 3 contenders out of form as well - I don't predict Wiggins will ever do as well on GC as he did this year. He's like a weak Cadel Evans or Leechheimer on the climbs - he can barely even follow wheels.

But yes I agree with you on your take on JV. He is just another in a long line of people who tried to change the system and do things their way. He wanted to create a "clean" team and prove that a team clean could do well. It couldn't; Vaughters failed. He was broken by the stronger force of the entrenched system and was coopted by it.

I normally agree with Blackcat, but Wiggins has no chance of coming second. Improvement? Out of this universe. Even non cycling fans will look and say cheat. Is team Sky that daft? Maybe they've gotten the non critical thinkers in cycling to believe Wiggins is naturally that gifted but they haven't fooled everyone with their 'clean team and ethics' speech. I said it a few days ago. I rewatched Floyd's Tour and what did I hear from Liggett's mouth? Phil talking about Wiggins being dropped from the groupetto, the autobus, the slowest climbers on a mountain stage.

Second on the Tour, even fourth, clean? Pull the other one. Sky will have to find more than AICAR and a good vampire to do that against Schleck 1 and 2 backed by Cancellara, let alone Contador with Vino and Perreiro backing him up considering their rosters failings. But in Sky's favour is the protocol and language used by everyone linked to the team. Positive talk and PR by the team. No, factual talk, everyone associated knows what is secretly going on and the length the team is undergoing to win. They're prepared. Wiggins talk said this much months ago with his rubbish. So maybe Blackcat might have picked a sure bet. Put a few hundred on Wiggins then if you're game. Even doped I don't really rate him. As I said, he podiums in 2nd, I hope if Vaughters is up to it, he comes out and spills the beans. In anger and to uphold the values he has laid down. You know, fulfill the measure he said his team is upheld to. This isn't like his time at Postal where he was an underling. JV is the numero uno at Garmin and he could really upset the apple cart given Wiggins and Sky have pooped in his lap (transfer and loyalty and not getting AC) and Sky goes like a rocket and Garmin fumble (next years race).

If he does it will be a nice turn around from what the line he was feeding on this very forum, a week after the Tour this year, concerning Vande Velde and Wiggins climbing wattage per kilo. 5.9 and 6.1 per kilo respectively, I believe. Lets get a power tap for every day in the mountains and see if that is correct. To those who ask why, we've heard numerous figures thrown about this year, some over 6.5 watts/kg. Is that natural or possible after 2 weeks hard racing without exogenous applications of chemistry? Science says no.

 

[Ripper]

what happens when Wiggins scores a dominant second in the Tour in 2010, on an Armstrong program?

Blackcat, you seem to have gotten over your anger (or frustration) over Wiggo. Weren't you quite pissed earlier this year when He was in le Tour? I remember you pointing out it could not all be weight loss (I do not disagree), but also that track cycling was not that deep and McGee was a much more talented rider, etc.

Not flaming, just wondering if anything changed?

 

[Escarabajo]

Blackcat, you seem to have gotten over your anger (or frustration) over Wiggo. Weren't you quite pissed earlier this year when He was in le Tour? I remember you pointing out it could not all be weight loss (I do not disagree), but also that track cycling was not that deep and McGee was a much more talented rider, etc.

Not flaming, just wondering if anything changed?

+1.

I was wondering the same. I think Blackcat is having second thoughts. And on the Lin thread he appeared a little defensive on Garmin.

 

[Tranquil]

... Unfortunately most people don't have this, so enough people get fooled by the garbage that's spouted, enough to keep the show on the road.

No doubt about that. The only question is whether you believe you are being fed garbage or not. I know you are.

 

[blackcat]

Bike Centric expressed the matter this way:



I normally agree with Blackcat, but Wiggins has no chance of coming second. Improvement? Out of this universe. Even non cycling fans will look and say cheat. Is team Sky that daft? Maybe they've gotten the non critical thinkers in cycling to believe Wiggins is naturally that gifted but they haven't fooled everyone with their 'clean team and ethics' speech. I said it a few days ago. I rewatched Floyd's Tour and what did I hear from Liggett's mouth? Phil talking about Wiggins being dropped from the groupetto, the autobus, the slowest climbers on a mountain stage.

Second on the Tour, even fourth, clean? Pull the other one. Sky will have to find more than AICAR and a good vampire to do that against Schleck 1 and 2 backed by Cancellara, let alone Contador with Vino and Perreiro backing him up considering their rosters failings. But in Sky's favour is the protocol and language used by everyone linked to the team. Positive talk and PR by the team. No, factual talk, everyone associated knows what is secretly going on and the length the team is undergoing to win. They're prepared. Wiggins talk said this much months ago with his rubbish. So maybe Blackcat might have picked a sure bet. Put a few hundred on Wiggins then if you're game. Even doped I don't really rate him. As I said, he podiums in 2nd, I hope if Vaughters is up to it, he comes out and spills the beans. In anger and to uphold the values he has laid down. You know, fulfill the measure he said his team is upheld to. This isn't like his time at Postal where he was an underling. JV is the numero uno at Garmin and he could really upset the apple cart given Wiggins and Sky have pooped in his lap (transfer and loyalty and not getting AC) and Sky goes like a rocket and Garmin fumble (next years race).

If he does it will be a nice turn around from what the line he was feeding on this very forum, a week after the Tour this year, concerning Vande Velde and Wiggins climbing wattage per kilo. 5.9 and 6.1 per kilo respectively, I believe. Lets get a power tap for every day in the mountains and see if that is correct. To those who ask why, we've heard numerous figures thrown about this year, some over 6.5 watts/kg. Is that natural or possible after 2 weeks hard racing without exogenous applications of chemistry? Science says no.

Gallic you are wrong. Garmin and Vaughters' supervision, will not allow his riders/allowed his riders, to dope with impunity. It restricted Wiggins' program. I doubt he got intra Tour blood transfusions. And you need those to win GC. Look how Wiggins faltered in the final chrono. Final chrono is all about recovery. Without intra Tour blood transfusions and insulin and IGF-1 for recovery with some strength hormones, your recovery program is severely restricted.

Wiggins on that program, will be like Kohl in 2007. Kohl's only doping came from Matschiner and not Holczer. JV aint got Steffan dosing his riders with recovery gear, I know that much. Wiggins has all that and more which he will be able to capitalise upon wih Brailsford and Sky.

 

[blackcat]

Blackcat, you seem to have gotten over your anger (or frustration) over Wiggo. Weren't you quite pissed earlier this year when He was in le Tour? I remember you pointing out it could not all be weight loss (I do not disagree), but also that track cycling was not that deep and McGee was a much more talented rider, etc.

Not flaming, just wondering if anything changed?

pertinent observation. My anger was probably projected upon Wiggans (sic) and he copped it. More my frustration with the sport. Plus my own gullibility, I believed Wiggins and guys like Gilbert. Now I don't believe. That is it. I should have probably just kept my mouth (fingers) shut, but I was venting. I was irrational, expecting that Wiggans public line on doping and his spotless reputation, equal reality. When they are divergent, no one wants to be taken for a fool. Wiggans should have the same advantages that other riders he competes against do.

Do the sums on Raimondas Rumsas. He gave up only about 5 minutes to Armstrong in 2002 when you net out the TTT. He beat Beloki when you net out the TTT. And Rumsas had to have his wife administer his doping plan, and did not access all the advantages StrongArm did. Thesis is simply put: more potential and talent in the needle wrt GT riders, than the legs.

I am still sure Wiggans was charged, but under a compromised program, because it was with JV's supervision, not allowing riders to dope with impunity. Put him in a different scenario, reckon he has a little potential to still pursue on the medical program.

 

[Oldman]

He won't. Wiggins was no doubt already on a "program" to improve as much as he did to 5th on the GC. This year was not a very strong field and had 3 contenders out of form as well - I don't predict Wiggins will ever do as well on GC as he did this year. He's like a weak Cadel Evans or Leechheimer on the climbs - he can barely even follow wheels.

But yes I agree with you on your take on JV. He is just another in a long line of people who tried to change the system and do things their way. He wanted to create a "clean" team and prove that a team clean could do well. It couldn't; Vaughters failed. He was broken by the stronger force of the entrenched system and was coopted by it.

We can hope they will get wins elsewhere but for the Grand Tours in particular; you have summed up the situation. Operation Puerto being shelved didn't help the mentality either.

 

[Galic Ho]

Gallic you are wrong. Garmin and Vaughters' supervision, will not allow his riders/allowed his riders, to dope with impunity. It restricted Wiggins' program. I doubt he got intra Tour blood transfusions. And you need those to win GC. Look how Wiggins faltered in the final chrono. Final chrono is all about recovery. Without intra Tour blood transfusions and insulin and IGF-1 for recovery with some strength hormones, your recovery program is severely restricted.

Wiggins on that program, will be like Kohl in 2007. Kohl's only doping came from Matschiner and not Holczer. JV aint got Steffan dosing his riders with recovery gear, I know that much. Wiggins has all that and more which he will be able to capitalise upon wih Brailsford and Sky.

Kohl 2008. As I said, Wiggins improves by the amount you are suggesting then the majority of this forum will scream cheat. I know Wiggins is that stupid to push the barriers to test them.

Doubt all you want but we've talked about Wiggins chrono before. Never special in a grand tour. He was top five this year against riders who have not misled the forumists here (we know they dope and use whatever they want). Wiggins did not falter in the chrono, he beat Lance and most of the other GC boys. He did get spanked by Cancellara and Contador.

I might add you've changed your approach, mostly I suspect to get the jump on what you see as a sure bet. Wiggins isn't. He was using this year, no way he improved this much without using the medical shortcuts. No way. Did JV know. No, but Brad used regardless. Garmin and Lim didn't just pat him on the back, put him on a gluten free diet and say you can podium. This has been a familiar pattern all year when talking about that team, "how much were they really doing." Wiggins still has to catch up to where Contador and Schleck were at and then some more (because they held back on Ventoux and Stage 17 Le Grand Bornand).

My point is Wiggins was already doing what you mentioned, just in a less than ideal setting and without proper organisation. He thinks that will change at Sky. It will, they'll help him dope, but it will count for little. Top 5 if he's lucky. Very lucky. Zabriskie, Miller and Vande Velde are far better support than Boassan Hagen, Loqkvist and Gerrans. Potential, no, he's already close to maxing out. He has little left to milk.

If in the highly unlikely scenario Wiggans does podium, I will scream blue murder. At least the other GC boys aren't mimicking Lance. Wiggins is. He just lacks the results.

 

[Escarabajo]

Nice reading guys (BikeCentric, Black Cat & Galic Ho). It is nice when there is no trolling. And I think I know why that is.
Thanks.

 

[blackcat]

Kohl 2008. As I said, Wiggins improves by the amount you are suggesting then the majority of this forum will scream cheat. I know Wiggins is that stupid to push the barriers to test them.

Doubt all you want but we've talked about Wiggins chrono before. Never special in a grand tour. He was top five this year against riders who have not misled the forumists here (we know they dope and use whatever they want). Wiggins did not falter in the chrono, he beat Lance and most of the other GC boys. He did get spanked by Cancellara and Contador.

I might add you've changed your approach, mostly I suspect to get the jump on what you see as a sure bet. Wiggins isn't. He was using this year, no way he improved this much without using the medical shortcuts. No way. Did JV know. No, but Brad used regardless. Garmin and Lim didn't just pat him on the back, put him on a gluten free diet and say you can podium. This has been a familiar pattern all year when talking about that team, "how much were they really doing." Wiggins still has to catch up to where Contador and Schleck were at and then some more (because they held back on Ventoux and Stage 17 Le Grand Bornand).

My point is Wiggins was already doing what you mentioned, just in a less than ideal setting and without proper organisation. He thinks that will change at Sky. It will, they'll help him dope, but it will count for little. Top 5 if he's lucky. Very lucky. Zabriskie, Miller and Vande Velde are far better support than Boassan Hagen, Loqkvist and Gerrans. Potential, no, he's already close to maxing out. He has little left to milk.

If in the highly unlikely scenario Wiggans does podium, I will scream blue murder. At least the other GC boys aren't mimicking Lance. Wiggins is. He just lacks the results.

I actually dont see WiggAns as a sure bet. It is still speculative. Yeah, I meant Bernie Kohl of '08.

I still reckon WiggAns has alot of ceiling, alot of potential to exhaust in the medical program. I also reckon he will be more in the mtns in his training. I dont think he found his legs in the mtns because of time in Gerona. More it was his blood parameters. I reckon he can find better climbing legs with a more tailored training program, plus, I think he has an optimal medical program up his sleeve.

And I disagree on the helpers, if Sky get Nibali in '11, he will have Froome, Augustyn, Lovqvist, Boasson, and Thomas, who is lighter than WiggAns and puts out more power on the track, so if they deliver O2 thru a medical program, G will be flying up cols.

You hear nimwits like AusCycle talk of Pauwels and Karlstrom, but these riders just do not have the talent. Arvesen will be captain on the road for the next two years, and perhaps they use Flecha on the flat, but then those riders will not be making the Sky Tour team. Pauwels and Karlstrom will never ride a TDF with Sky. I reckon Steve Cummings is a rider who can develop into a Hincapie type captain and have versatility for the intermediate mtn stages. Like Arvesen is now. But Hincapie was not a leader in the sense of controlling tactics on road for the team.

Sky have more talent than to use guys like Pauwels and Karlstrom in the TDF. Gerrans also picked the wrong team. When there is a TTT Gerrans is out. Sky can only afford a stagehunter or two. And Boasson will be given the leash. And Boasson can ride a mean TTT and climbs better than Hincapie at the same stage of his career. Sky will be too deep for even Gerrans for the TDF in the very near term future. If Gerrans wishes to ride the Tour ever year, he needs to find another French team with no ambition and 9 stagehunters.

 

[58teeth]

I see a parallel with Obama. There is no change in his first term. He is still seeking to build consensus and constituencies to enact a change which may or may not come. What happens if General Petraeus is commander in chief for the second term which never comes?

Right...because Politics are so very relevant here. Give me a break dude. Talk about cycling and doping...There is absolutely no reason to compare this to anything Political.

 

[Ferminal]

Nice reading guys (BikeCentric, Black Cat & Galic Ho). It is nice when there is no trolling. And I think I know why that is.
Thanks.

Indeed, very nice.

What gets me is that we are allowed to freely talk about Wiggins (who many outsiders would view as "clean" due to anglo/spotless record) getting on "full programs" without anyone interfering.

Yet if we even mentioned a "full program" for another rider, who let's say has the odd blemish here and there, the thread would be a trollfest. If they should be "defending" someone, it's Wiggins...

(touchwood)

 

[Anonymous]

Nice reading guys (BikeCentric, Black Cat & Galic Ho). It is nice when there is no trolling. And I think I know why that is.
Thanks.

I think that post confirms the term "troll" should replace the word "disagree" in the dictionary.

The thing with Wiggins and dope is it's just so absurd and has no evidential basis, so few can be bothered to counter it. It's not like the Armstrong issue where there is very much a debate to be had about the extent and meaningfulness of his doping. So if you want to have a little pretend thread where you invent a magical world where everyone agrees Wiggins is on a "program", then go nuts.

 

[workingclasshero]

I think that post confirms the term "troll" should replace the word "disagree" in the dictionary.

The thing with Wiggins and dope is it's just so absurd and has no evidential basis, so few can be bothered to counter it. It's not like the Armstrong issue where there is very much a debate to be had about the extent and meaningfulness of his doping. So if you want to have a little pretend thread where you invent a magical world where everyone agrees Wiggins is on a "program", then go nuts.

yo kermit, the reason you don't counter any claims against anyone is that you have nothing to counter with.

you have three types of what you consider a successful counter attack:
a) post any random inane drivel about armstrong
b) post that the good posters on this forum are trolls
c) overlook any good point made. like the 20 per cent as explained by poupou.

all three will just end up with people rolling their eyes at you and wondering how you can be so obsessed with armstrong yet be able to present so little in his defense

no wonder people think you are this fella who fakes cancer to get sex. sounds like your kind of success to me

 

[Hugh Januss]

Indeed, very nice.

What gets me is that we are allowed to freely talk about Wiggins (who many outsiders would view as "clean" due to anglo/spotless record) getting on "full programs" without anyone interfering.

Yet if we even mentioned a "full program" for another rider, who let's say has the odd blemish here and there, the thread would be a trollfest. If they should be "defending" someone, it's Wiggins...

(touchwood)

Careful what you wish for, you won't like it when you get it.
Now you've called a troll down upon all of us.

 

[Ferminal]

Careful what you wish for, you won't like it when you get it.
Now you've called a troll down upon all of us.

Was wondering why my ignore function failed, account deleted I guess

 

[Boeing]

what happens when Wiggins scores a dominant second in the Tour in 2010, on an Armstrong program?

JV will be a little aggrieved one assumes.

Does Garmin still attempt to do it ethically? Or do they dispense with all practical restrictions, and the facade?

I see a parallel with Obama. There is no change in his first term. He is still seeking to build consensus and constituencies to enact a change which may or may not come. What happens if General Petraeus is commander in chief for the second term which never comes?

I reckon a dominant Wiggins may force JV to dispense with all the superficial and pragmatic actions and fully subvert professed ideals. Then one can question what are ideals if they vanish when they fail to stand up to test.

it wasn't too long ago that JV was chastising the tour for its drug policy

 

[Galic Ho]

I actually dont see WiggAns as a sure bet. It is still speculative. Yeah, I meant Bernie Kohl of '08.

I still reckon WiggAns has alot of ceiling, alot of potential to exhaust in the medical program. I also reckon he will be more in the mtns in his training. I dont think he found his legs in the mtns because of time in Gerona. More it was his blood parameters. I reckon he can find better climbing legs with a more tailored training program, plus, I think he has an optimal medical program up his sleeve.

And I disagree on the helpers, if Sky get Nibali in '11, he will have Froome, Augustyn, Lovqvist, Boasson, and Thomas, who is lighter than WiggAns and puts out more power on the track, so if they deliver O2 thru a medical program, G will be flying up cols.

You hear nimwits like AusCycle talk of Pauwels and Karlstrom, but these riders just do not have the talent. Arvesen will be captain on the road for the next two years, and perhaps they use Flecha on the flat, but then those riders will not be making the Sky Tour team. Pauwels and Karlstrom will never ride a TDF with Sky. I reckon Steve Cummings is a rider who can develop into a Hincapie type captain and have versatility for the intermediate mtn stages. Like Arvesen is now. But Hincapie was not a leader in the sense of controlling tactics on road for the team.

Sky have more talent than to use guys like Pauwels and Karlstrom in the TDF. Gerrans also picked the wrong team. When there is a TTT Gerrans is out. Sky can only afford a stagehunter or two. And Boasson will be given the leash. And Boasson can ride a mean TTT and climbs better than Hincapie at the same stage of his career. Sky will be too deep for even Gerrans for the TDF in the very near term future. If Gerrans wishes to ride the Tour ever year, he needs to find another French team with no ambition and 9 stagehunters.

Forgot about John Lee Augustyn. I'll have to get out my 2008 Tour DVD. His slide down the mountain was quality and funny. But the boy can climb like a mountain goat. My point was for 2010, Garmin are the stronger team. 2011 Sky will come of age no doubt. It will be good to see EBH at the Tour. Also, I'm suspecting if this year isn't a pearler for GC ambitions in France then Nibali is an almost guarantee to jump ship in 2011. But that is complicated. Basso to Astana in 2011. Complicated. We'll see how it plays out, but the option has been already been established for Vincenzo to switch teams with the Italian links to Sky.

About the bold. Ceilings. Where do riders naturally sit. How many transfusions do they get in grand tour? 2 or 3? Does getting a litre of blood taken out to transfuse later affect your preparation (it should if common sense prevails). Obviously Brad was going to be better climbing with the weight loss. We don't know specifics about blood and medical support for every rider or team. So we hypothesize and estimate. Hence why Lance has few backers this year. I'll agree with Brad that he can improve more than Lance, but enought to beat guys who did flop like Cadel, Menchov, Sastre and Levi? I'll know for certain around Paris-Nice. There are a lot of unanswered variables with Brad because he has just the one result on GC and he rode for Garmin. In theory there is potential gains to be made, how much that equates to on the clock....we'll find out in July.

 

[craig1985]

pertinent observation. My anger was probably projected upon Wiggans (sic) and he copped it. More my frustration with the sport. Plus my own gullibility, I believed Wiggins and guys like Gilbert. Now I don't believe. That is it. I should have probably just kept my mouth (fingers) shut, but I was venting. I was irrational, expecting that Wiggans public line on doping and his spotless reputation, equal reality. When they are divergent, no one wants to be taken for a fool. Wiggans should have the same advantages that other riders he competes against do.

Do the sums on Raimondas Rumsas. He gave up only about 5 minutes to Armstrong in 2002 when you net out the TTT. He beat Beloki when you net out the TTT. And Rumsas had to have his wife administer his doping plan, and did not access all the advantages StrongArm did. Thesis is simply put: more potential and talent in the needle wrt GT riders, than the legs.

I am still sure Wiggans was charged, but under a compromised program, because it was with JV's supervision, not allowing riders to dope with impunity. Put him in a different scenario, reckon he has a little potential to still pursue on the medical program.

What made you change your mind on Gilbert? That he had a great run of form and won 4 races in a row? Gilbert always came across to me as a mad attacking rider, always trying to be in a break, or put in a late attack and try and stay away from the bunch. I wasn't so surprised that he won the Giro di Lomardia, since winning L-B-L has always been a target for him and a race he is suited too (that and L-B-L is his home race).

As for Wiggins, what makes it interesting is that his old boss at Credit Agricole, Roger Legeay, always knew he was capable of riding high in GC of a major Tour (go read the latest issue of Pro Cycling Magazine, Legeay says so right there), even when he was riding for Cradit Agricole, which he was riding on the track at the time. The impression they gave me was, stop riding on the velodrome, focus on the road and drop some weight and then he improves. Either that, or they saw his potential as a super responder on a medical program.

 

[Oldman]

What made you change your mind on Gilbert? That he had a great run of form and won 4 races in a row? Gilbert always came across to me as a mad attacking rider, always trying to be in a break, or put in a late attack and try and stay away from the bunch. I wasn't so surprised that he won the Giro di Lomardia, since winning L-B-L has always been a target for him and a race he is suited too (that and L-B-L is his home race).

As for Wiggins, what makes it interesting is that his old boss at Credit Agricole, Roger Legeay, always knew he was capable of riding high in GC of a major Tour (go read the latest issue of Pro Cycling Magazine, Legeay says so right there), even when he was riding for Cradit Agricole, which he was riding on the track at the time. The impression they gave me was, stop riding on the velodrome, focus on the road and drop some weight and then he improves. Either that, or they saw his potential as a super responder on a medical program.

Very good points on Wiggins transition from track preparation. There are alot of precedents to support it.

As for Gilbert; didn't his results come in a fairly confined stretch of the season? I find stellar results scattered from one end of the season to the other more suspect of a Program rider. Sustaining a peak for a couple of months is a more realistic profile for a clean rider.