Vaughter's Spine

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buckwheat

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ultimobici said:
Did you read the last paragraph of my post?

The fact that someone as uncompromisingly outspoken as Lemond is actually works with Garmin suggests to me that there is commonality between their beliefs. Lemond strikes me as someone who would not be involved if he thought otherwise.

I think you may find that JV ends up being the baseball bat that Armstrong is belted round the back of the head with.
I may?

LeMond is one of many sponsors.

JV knew there was going to be a Federal Investigation, back around SCA, IM Kimmage interview?

No! Because FL manned up he had his hiney saved.....Maybe......
 
flicker said:
Thanks for the Kimmage article. He shoots from the hip and obviously knows what hew is talking about. You cannot ask anyone who is as involved in the business of cycling to be as outspoken and honest as Kimmage.
He is a threatening man and is valuable in that way. Please do not ask Jonathon to be that way, it would lead to chaos in the peloton.
Kimmage doesn't actually know jack s**t. He interprets the evidence from a distance in the same way everyone here does.
Pro cycling in general gives him a wide berth. It's been that way for 20 odd years.
 

buckwheat

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andy1234 said:
Kimmage doesn't actually know jack s**t. He interprets the evidence from a distance in the same way everyone here does.
Pro cycling in general gives him a wide berth. It's been that way for 20 odd years.
You know something?

Now's the time.;)
 
andy1234 said:
Kimmage doesn't actually know jack s**t. He interprets the evidence from a distance in the same way everyone here does.
Pro cycling in general gives him a wide berth. It's been that way for 20 odd years.
"I spent the whole Tour this year with Slipstream, the Garmin team. That wasn’t by accident. I chose that team deliberately, because of what they were saying about the sport and the message they were putting out. But also the fact that so many of that team had raced with Armstrong during his best years and knew exactly what he got up to. And the stuff that I learnt on that Tour about him and what he was really like was absolutely shocking, really shocking."

http://grg51.typepad.com/steroid_nation/2009/02/paul-kimmages-lance-amrstrong-cancer-comments-in-context.html

To say that Kimmage is like the rest of us is nonsensical. Have you read his articles in the past twenty years? He has interviewed Cavendish, Millar, Wiggins, Vaughters, CVDV, Lim, Stapleton, Lemond, Brailsford - yeah a real wide berth....
 
Mar 17, 2009
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buckwheat said:
When was the IM and Kimmage interview?

When did the Fed case start?

These are very weasely contentions you're bringing up if you don't realize it already.
I went back and reread the Kimmage article from 2008. While I agree that he was evasive in not answering the direct "Did you dope?" questions he did at least say why. He didn't throw a hissy fit and flounce off. To do that and not alow it to be published would be weasily.

That Kimmage then carried on with the Tour report too is telling. Both he and Lemond are staunch anti-doping advocates. Neither are they known for tolerating those who subvert the fight.
 

buckwheat

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BotanyBay said:
He's aware, and that means he's looking. Good enough for me. He's no "anti-doping" force in professional racing. He's an opportunist. He (correctly) guessed that there were enough clean racing fans out there to justify that as a positioning (see the "P's of marketing") for his team. But he's just as much a part of the problem with his refusal to contribute to accountability for the past. Before you can "move forward", one must show that they actually knew where they once were.
I'm an idiot, I just take things at face value and give them a chance to hang themselves.

With me you're preaching to the choir btw.
 
ultimobici said:
I went back and reread the Kimmage article from 2008. While I agree that he was evasive in not answering the direct "Did you dope?" questions he did at least say why. He didn't throw a hissy fit and flounce off. To do that and not alow it to be published would be weasily.

That Kimmage then carried on with the Tour report too is telling. Both he and Lemond are staunch anti-doping advocates. Neither are they known for tolerating those who subvert the fight.
And i honestly think JV was one of the people Kimmage was alluding to in today's article.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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Digger said:
And i honestly think JV was one of the people Kimmage was alluding to in today's article.
Perhaps he was. I think he was more focused on the Schlecks of this world.

Nice to see Thor Hushovd does have a spine and a pair of balls too.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hushovd-criticises-contador-support

World champion Thor Hushovd has now reacted to Contador being honoured, finding the treatment "odd" and saying that this would probably never have occurred in Norway.

"To do it while his doping investigation is still ongoing is odd. I think and I hope it would not have happened in Norway," Hushovd told Norwegian TV 2 Sport.

The mayor of Pinto, Juan José Martín, meanwhile explained the award to news agency Europa Press, saying it represented "honesty, sacrifice, effort and hard work" and was aimed "against the injustice committed against Contador."

Tour de France green jersey contender Hushovd said that this showed a different view of doping in Spain than in Northern European countries. "It tells of a different culture," he stated, before adding that the Spaniard should not benefit from any other treatment than other cyclists that were being investigated from doping offenses.

"He must be treated like everyone else, and if they find out that he has cheated, he has to take the full punishment. And if it is two years, he must take it."
 
Mar 17, 2009
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Digger said:
I don't think anyone amongst us, especially Kimmage, would consider Andy Schleck one of the good guys.
Sorry, head is a liitle fuzzy from being Buckwheated! Good point.
 

buckwheat

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ultimobici said:
Sorry, head is a liitle fuzzy from being Buckwheated! Good point.
I haven't been clear enough?

Wow, I've been accused of not living in reality so much here it's absurd.

Jeez, picking grapes, riding on buses, striking garbagemen, working in Auto plants?

Then I cite recommendations by prominent figures on how to deal with institutional, systemic, corruption, fraud, and oppression..

How much more real does it get?

Then we get a guy equivocating on questions regarding cheating in a bike race. OOOOoooo, the consequences.

"by any means necessary" you know, if they don't threaten to take your job and threaten public humiliation. Then of course buckle.

Jeez Louise, real people were threatened with Lynching, clubs to the head, and vicious dogs for goodness sakes.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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buckwheat said:
I haven't been clear enough?

Wow, I've been accused of not living in reality so much here it's absurd.

Jeez, picking grapes, riding on buses, striking garbagemen?

Then I cite recommendations by prominent figures on how to deal with institutional, systemic, corruption, fraud, and oppression..

How much more real does it get?

Then we get a guy equivocating on questions regarding cheating in a bike race. OOOOoooo, the consequences.

"by any means necessary" you know, if they don't threaten to take your job and threaten public humiliation. Then of course buckle.

Jeez Louise, real people were threatened with Lynching and vicious dogs for goodness sakes.
Crystal.

I was referring to the avalanche of posts.

I understand your point of view perfectly well but disagree with your fundamentalesque view.

That's not to say I'm right just that I am not of the same view as you.

Clear?

BTW did you read the whole Kimmage interview, in particular the part about his father's method of witness questioning?
 

buckwheat

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ultimobici said:
Crystal.

I was referring to the avalanche of posts.

I understand your point of view perfectly well but disagree with your fundamentalesque view.

That's not to say I'm right just that I am not of the same view as you.

Clear?

BTW did you read the whole Kimmage interview, in particular the part about his father's method of witness questioning?
Yes, but you're not recognizing that just about all the experts in these sorts of conflicts come down on the side of what I'm saying, and then you disparage these types as "fundementalists."

Also I'm sure you realize that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?
 

Bilirubin

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Buckwheat breaks 100

Top five stats for this thread:

1. buckwheat 103 posts

2. flicker 21 posts

3. andy1234 18 posts

4. TeamSkyFans 17 posts

5. Digger 16 posts
 
Mar 17, 2009
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buckwheat said:
Yes, but you're not recognizing that just about all the experts in these sorts of conflicts come down on the side of what I'm saying, and then you disparage these types as "fundementalists."

Also I'm sure you realize that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?
Civil Rights is an ideal worth sacrificing one's "life" down for, cycle racing is not. While applying the same logic to the problem is tempting, as several posters have pointed out, is not practical.
 

buckwheat

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Bilirubin said:
Top five stats for this thread:

1. buckwheat 103 posts

2. flicker 21 posts

3. andy1234 18 posts

4. TeamSkyFans 17 posts

5. Digger 16 posts
Thanks for the Stats. I'm prolific I guess...
 

buckwheat

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ultimobici said:
Civil Rights is an ideal worth laying one's life down for, cycle racing is not. While applying the same logic to the problem is tempting, as several posters have pointed out, is not practical.
And they've missed the point that JV is not laying down his life.

I went back and read today's Kimmage article again. I got distracted because I saw Kimmage's use of the F word and commented to the moderators about what I saw as hypocrisy; they gave me an infraction for that. btw, I'll abide by that rule in the future.

The big stumbling block for you fellas that don't get it is this.

You keep saying that doping is entrenched and there is retribution if you categorically come out against it.

What I've pointed out and you've completely missed is that there were far more entrenched powers in other areas of everyday life, and standing up to them entailed far more risk to human lives,

and yet people stood up at far greater odds and far greater risk of consequences up to and including death.

Back to the OP.

NO, JV does not have a spine.

What is impractical about JV answering questions that PK posed 4 or 5 years ago?

I'll tell you what's impractical. Some poor, faceless, nameless, Mexican immigrant opening his mouth about working conditions enforced by gigantic corporations.

This thread has been enlightening. I had no idea there were this many spineless people.
 
Jul 4, 2009
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buckwheat said:
Remember Tolstoy, greatest novelist ever.

Complete absolutist and idealist. Was mocked for those beliefs. At the end he ran away from home at 83 years old.

Einstein, complete absolutist and idealist. People who misunderstood his science believe he was a MORAL relatavist. Couldn't be further from the truth. Einstein was mocked when it was safe, when he couldn't pull any more e=mc2's out of his hat.

Every great advance is met with mockery.

JC, absolute mockery and murder at the hands of the authorities.

On a much, much, much, much lower level. LeMond comes out with an obvious statement which was way less absolute. 'If it's true, greatest comeback, if it's not, greatest fraud.'

Please tell me what happened to him.

Wake up people.
...Trotsky...complete absolutist and idealist...and one of the great monsters of the 20th Century...if fact a great many of the monsters of history were complete absolutists and idealists...so your point is?...

...as I said earlier, beware of true believers...or as someone said of your hero Shaw...I will certainly go to see his plays but I would never invite him to my house...Shaw, you see, in addition to being very gifted, was a a notoriously pompous a*s...and Einstein, while really good with numbers, was not so good with people...so, again, was is your point?...

Cheers

blutto
 
Bilirubin said:
Top five stats for this thread:

1. buckwheat 103 posts

2. flicker 21 posts

3. andy1234 18 posts

4. TeamSkyFans 17 posts

5. Digger 16 posts
and... JV1973... 1 post?

Update:

I have just had a dialog with JV about my question marks on his team. He was candid, forthcoming and convincing.

Even a trip to Alcatraz couldn't stop people from trying to get around the rules and escape. I am confident at this point, though, that JV is sincere in his anti-doping commitment.

Would I like someone, like JV, to put the Armstrong era behind us? Yes.

But, I do not believe that he is simply paying lip service to anti-doping at Slipstream. He definitely impressed me in this regard.

And, for those who know my posting record elsewhere, I am pretty hard to convince.

Dave.
 

buckwheat

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blutto said:
...Trotsky...complete absolutist and idealist...and one of the great monsters of the 20th Century...if fact a great many of the monsters of history were complete absolutists and idealists...so your point is?...

...as I said earlier, beware of true believers...or as someone said of your hero Shaw...I will certainly go to see his plays but I would never invite him to my house...Shaw, you see, in addition to being very gifted, was a a notoriously pompous a*s...and Einstein, while really good with numbers, was not so good with people...so, again, was is your point?...

Cheers

blutto
You'll never get my point. You keep hedging. Hedging is a virtue.

Re GBS, don't worry, I don't want to be friends with you guys, so there'll be no invite.

I'm starting to have more respect for Armstrong. Everyone kisses up to his face and takes shots behind his back. But he's Armstrong, and most everybody else is a parasite looking for a host.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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buckwheat said:
And they've missed the point that JV is not laying down his life.

I went back and read today's Kimmage article again. I got distracted because I saw Kimmage's use of the F word and commented to the moderators about what I saw as hypocrisy; they gave me an infraction for that. btw, I'll abide by that rule in the future.

The big stumbling block for you fellas that don't get it is this.

You keep saying that doping is entrenched and there is retribution if you categorically come out against it.

What I've pointed out and you've completely missed is that there were far more entrenched powers in other areas of everyday life, and standing up to them entailed far more risk to human lives,

and yet people stood up at far greater odds and far greater risk of consequences up to and including death.

Back to the OP.

NO, JV does not have a spine.

What is impractical about JV answering questions that PK posed 4 or 5 years ago?

I'll tell you what's impractical. Some poor, faceless, nameless, Mexican immigrant opening his mouth about working conditions enforced by gigantic corporations.

This thread has been enlightening. I had no idea there were this many spineless people.
Not the point I was making.

JV has a great many people who are dependant on Garmin's survival. To compromise their livelihoods for a cause that is way way less critical than the oppression in the US in the 60's or union rights would be monumentally selfish.

"Hey guys, you don't mind if I crash the Garmin Team Bus into the UCI/Armstrong/Bruyneel juggernaut do you so some internet posters I should demonstrate I do have a spine?"
 

buckwheat

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D-Queued said:
and... JV1973... 1 post?

Update:

I have just had a dialog with JV about my question marks on his team. He was candid, forthcoming and convincing.

Even a trip to Alcatraz couldn't stop people from trying to get around the rules and escape. I am confident at this point, though, that JV is sincere in his anti-doping commitment.
Would I like someone, like JV, to put the Armstrong era behind us? Yes.

But, I do not believe that he is simply paying lip service to anti-doping at Slipstream. He definitely impressed me in this regard.

And, for those who know my posting record elsewhere, I am pretty hard to convince.

Dave.
That's not really the question though.

The question is, "what is/was he prepared to do?"

You ever see the Untouchables? Great flick.
 

flicker

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ultimobici said:
I went back and reread the Kimmage article from 2008. While I agree that he was evasive in not answering the direct "Did you dope?" questions he did at least say why. He didn't throw a hissy fit and flounce off. To do that and not alow it to be published would be weasily.

That Kimmage then carried on with the Tour report too is telling. Both he and Lemond are staunch anti-doping advocates. Neither are they known for tolerating those who subvert the fight.

I just like the way Kimmage handles himself. If you check out the you tube where Lance notices Kimmage, I think it is from 2008, watch Armstrongs body language. Kimmage has major clout in cycling.

For Buckwheat in your list of heroes(and I admire each and everyone of them) please add Dietrech Bonhoeffer. I just watched documentary on him, he fought Nazis peacefully and participated in an underground movement against the Nazis from 1938 on. He gave is life for what is right, executed by the Nazis 9 April 1945 and before he died he said, now my life begins.

I see your point Buckwheat. For me for cycling to change the Olympics really need to clean up. As a DS all Jonathan can do is try to control his own charges.

When I saw the Lisa Weisenthal film on the Berlin Olympics 36 I could really understand how sports are manipulated.

If you watch the Bonhoeffer film Hitler is having a rally in an indoor board track velodrome. Sports were and are propoganda, a narcotic to quell the people, much like TV or video games. Check that movie out Bonhoeffer. Netflix instant.
 
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