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Vaughter's Spine

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buckwheat

buckwheat

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You don't get it.

Chuffy said:
What a lovely, simple, black and white world you live in. You really, truly don't get it, do you? JV is operating in the real world, with real world considerations to deal with. If that isn't good enough for you well, tough. Grow up and deal with it. I'd rather have a good guy like JV running a team and dancing on the tightrope inside the tent than have him spilling everything he knows from the safety of his real estate and fine wine dealership.

Meanwhile, keep banging out your pompous, self-righteous drivel from the safety of an anonymous keyboard.
Click to expand...

The sport and sports in general are built on a mythology with allusions to the character/spine of the participants.

We have Cannibals, Badgers, Tom Simpson who's dying words were, put me back on my bike, we got Spartacus, we got comeback Kid, Greg LeMond, We do have Lance Armstrong, Texas, Big Tex, Uniballer (and I concede it's a big Ball), also Pharmstrong.

Well anyway, WTH do you think it means when Sherwen blathers on about a guy going into his suitcase of courage? He is talking about his character/backbone/constitution/guts/cojones.....SPINE!

What do we say about JV's character?

Spine manifests itself in many ways in each person's life according to their station.

I'll say this, thank goodness Rosa Parks was on that bus and not JV.
 
buckwheat

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Chuffy said:
What a lovely, simple, black and white world you live in. You really, truly don't get it, do you? JV is operating in the real world, with real world considerations to deal with. If that isn't good enough for you well, tough. Grow up and deal with it. I'd rather have a good guy like JV running a team and dancing on the tightrope inside the tent than have him spilling everything he knows from the safety of his real estate and fine wine dealership.

Meanwhile, keep banging out your pompous, self-righteous drivel from the safety of an anonymous keyboard.
Click to expand...

All of us are operating in the real world.

LeMond to JV,

Hey, you got my back?

Kinda.

Spineless.
 
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JMBeaushrimp

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veganrob said:
Pretty simple. Do the right thing.
Click to expand...

I think that's Buckwheat's point - do the right thing.

Unfortunately the 'right thing' depends on your own paradigm.

Is JV doing the right thing? According to JV - a high-profile DS/Manager who obviously loves the sport and wants to stay in it - he IS doing the right thing. Bringing a little attention to doping, trying to find non-suicidal methods to clean the sport up a bit, and presenting a team that's more open than the vast majority.

Is that enough? Depends on your paradigm.

For Buckwheat, and a lot of other anti-dope cycling fans, it is not. We'd rather see someone like JV come totally clean and help blow the lid off the doping culture of cycling. Is he doing this? No, he is not.

JV's obviously playing the game a little bit, and with his ability to maintain diplomacy he should be looking at a future in politics.

I think Buck's rabid pursuit of 'spineless' stems from that. JV is in the know at many levels in regards to doping in cycling. His unwillingness to implicate himself, past teammates, current sponsors, and current riders in the doping culture is only an act promulgated by someone who wants to stay in the game.

Is he spineless? Probably depends on your definition. Is JV doing EVERYTHING he can to rid cycling of doping? Obviously not. Having the luxury of being able to adhere to absolutes (without cutting your own head off), is a luxury that Buckwheat has. I share that luxury with him - hence my love of being able to maintain annonymity on this forum.

I feel too much empathy for JV to label him as totally spineless. But I do feel a little disappointed, and that's coloured with a lot of cynicism, in terms of JV being the Holy Saviour of clean cycling. He is not. He's a politician in the political world of cycling.

Good luck, buddy....
 
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buckwheat said:
I'll say this, thank goodness Rosa Parks was on that bus and not JV.
Click to expand...

I'm tempted to ask if you are serious. But I know you are.

You are so far over the top there is absolutely no going back. I can't imagine what possesses you to even attempt to draw comparison between JV and Rosa Parks.

Your world is truly your own.
 
buckwheat

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Scott SoCal said:
I'm tempted to ask if you are serious. But I know you are.

You are so far over the top there is absolutely no going back. I can't imagine what possesses you to even attempt to draw comparison between JV and Rosa Parks.

Your world is truly your own.
Click to expand...


Whatever!

There obviously is no comparision. Rosa Parks had more courage in her waste products than JV can dream of having.

I know what your arguments are and they are always for the existing powers. Congrats!

Spineless, that's the category. JV does not have a spine. And you?

Do you intentionally miss the obvious?

You go on being the voice of reason!
 
buckwheat

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veganrob said:
I am not quite sure of how much more JV could do in this situation, I am still learning all the details. I applaud him for coming on this forum and opening himself to abuse. But I especially like the conviction of buckwheat. I believe him to be a stand up guy and I would have his back anytime. Some of these other wishy-washy delusional characters here. Sheesh
Click to expand...

And I'd have yours!

Not many stand up guys but you've got David v Goliath.

Just remember how that one turned out.:)

You always do the right thing and no one can touch you.
 
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Anonymous

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buckwheat said:
Whatever!

There obviously is no comparision. Rosa Parks had more courage in her waste products than JV can dream of having.

I know what your arguments are and they are always for the existing powers. Congrats!

Spineless, that's the category. JV does not have a spine. And you?
Click to expand...


My spine hurts every time I roll outta bed in the morning.

I have all sorts of problems with existing powers. In your parlance, I think you would refer to this as a strawman, no?

You keep killing flys with a sledge hammer, Buck. What ever makes you feel good.
 
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pedaller

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My problem with JV's proclamations of cleanliness are that for a clean team they sure get some amazing results especially when compared to the french teams - who many also believe to be clean (or relatively clean)

Look at the tour GC for example

2010
Garmin - Hesjedal 7th (+10.15)
AG2R - Roche 15th (+16.59) & Gadret 19th (+24.04)
FdJ - Casar 25th (+45.52)
Cofidis - El Fares 27th (+53.22)
Bbox - Charteau 44th (+1.24.12)

2009
Garmin - Wiggins 4th (+6.01) & VdV 8th (+12.04)
FdJ - Le Mevel 10th (+14.25) & Casar 12th (+17.19)
AG2R - Nocentini 14th (+20.45) & Goubert 16th (+22.29)
Bbox - Rolland 22nd (+37.44)
Agritubel - Feillu 25th (+41.14)
Cofidis - Minard 38th (+57.37)

2008
Garmin - VdV 5th (+3.05)
AG2R - Valjavec* 10th (+9.05) & Efimkin 11th (+9.55)
FdJ - Casar 14th (+19.23)
Cofidis - Moinard 15th (+23.31)
CA - Botcharov 18th (+27.11) & Fofonov# 19th (+28.31)
Bbox - Fedrigo 32nd (+50.19)
Agritubel - Gonzalez (+1.20.06)

If someone can explain to me how Garmin in 3 years can get 4 top 10's (2 of those top 5) with 3 different riders, whereas an average of 5 french teams each year can only manage 2 10th's (this includes Valjavec) during that time, without doping.
What is Garmin doing that the french teams aren't?

NOTE: I'm not saying the french teams are clean but if they aren't that makes Garmin's results even more implausible. Personally I have serious doubts on AG2R and would only really be confident in the cleanliness of Bbox (soon to be Europcar)

* Valjavec is currently pending suspension for bio passport (he may get off)
# Fofonov was positive for heptaminol at that Tour. Returned to Astana this year.
 
buckwheat

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Scott SoCal said:
My spine hurts every time I roll outta bed in the morning.

I have all sorts of problems with existing powers. In your parlance, I think you would refer to this as a strawman, no?

You keep killing flys with a sledge hammer, Buck. What ever makes you feel good.
Click to expand...

Can't get into the powers here.

The doping in pro cycling fly is dead?

Could have been wounded if certain invertebrates stood up.

Oops, that's impossible.

Here's a hammer.......

and some good listening for you anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm3zUQjG5no
 
buckwheat

buckwheat

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pedaller said:
My problem with JV's proclamations of cleanliness are that for a clean team they sure get some amazing results especially when compared to the french teams - who many also believe to be clean (or relatively clean)

Look at the tour GC for example

2010
Garmin - Hesjedal 7th (+10.15)
AG2R - Roche 15th (+16.59) & Gadret 19th (+24.04)
FdJ - Casar 25th (+45.52)
Cofidis - El Fares 27th (+53.22)
Bbox - Charteau 44th (+1.24.12)

2009
Garmin - Wiggins 4th (+6.01) & VdV 8th (+12.04)
FdJ - Le Mevel 10th (+14.25) & Casar 12th (+17.19)
AG2R - Nocentini 14th (+20.45) & Goubert 16th (+22.29)
Bbox - Rolland 22nd (+37.44)
Agritubel - Feillu 25th (+41.14)
Cofidis - Minard 38th (+57.37)

2008
Garmin - VdV 5th (+3.05)
AG2R - Valjavec* 10th (+9.05) & Efimkin 11th (+9.55)
FdJ - Casar 14th (+19.23)
Cofidis - Moinard 15th (+23.31)
CA - Botcharov 18th (+27.11) & Fofonov# 19th (+28.31)
Bbox - Fedrigo 32nd (+50.19)
Agritubel - Gonzalez (+1.20.06)

If someone can explain to me how Garmin in 3 years can get 4 top 10's (2 of those top 5) with 3 different riders, whereas an average of 5 french teams each year can only manage 2 10th's (this includes Valjavec) during that time, without doping.
What is Garmin doing that the french teams aren't?

NOTE: I'm not saying the french teams are clean but if they aren't that makes Garmin's results even more implausible. Personally I have serious doubts on AG2R and would only really be confident in the cleanliness of Bbox (soon to be Europcar)

* Valjavec is currently pending suspension for bio passport (he may get off)
# Fofonov was positive for heptaminol at that Tour. Returned to Astana this year.
Click to expand...

I'm confused???:confused:

In addition to not having a spine he's also fraudulent?:eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MDBsMYDN7I&feature=related
 
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Ferminal

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pedaller said:
My problem with JV's proclamations of cleanliness are that for a clean team they sure get some amazing results especially when compared to the french teams - who many also believe to be clean (or relatively clean)
Click to expand...

Garmin have spun it fairly extensively, rice cakes, better equipment, training, management etc.
 
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pedaller

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buckwheat said:
I'm confused???:confused:

In addition to not having a spine he's also fraudulent?:eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MDBsMYDN7I&feature=related
Click to expand...

Just saying maybe there is a reason he isn't showing more 'SPINE'.

I my opinion he is either:
Fraudulent - The clean team stuff is just PR
Naive - He doesn't know his riders dope
or Lucky/Good DS - Stumbled upon 3 riders capable of riding top 10 at the tour having shown none of those qualities previously.
 
buckwheat

buckwheat

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pedaller said:
Just saying maybe there is a reason he isn't showing more 'SPINE'.

I my opinion he is either:
Fraudulent - The clean team stuff is just PR
Naive - He doesn't know his riders dope
or Lucky/Good DS - Stumbled upon 3 riders capable of riding top 10 at the tour having shown none of those qualities previously.
Click to expand...

I understand.

Thanks.
 
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pedaller

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Ferminal said:
Garmin have spun it fairly extensively, rice cakes, better equipment, training, management etc.
Click to expand...

The Allen Lim stuff really bothers me as well especially in light of what Floyd has said about him.
Have to say they offloaded that PR bomb to Radioshack at the right time though.
 
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andy1234

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pedaller said:
Just saying maybe there is a reason he isn't showing more 'SPINE'.

I my opinion he is either:
Fraudulent - The clean team stuff is just PR
Naive - He doesn't know his riders dope
or Lucky/Good DS - Stumbled upon 3 riders capable of riding top 10 at the tour having shown none of those qualities previously.
Click to expand...

How can a multiple world and Olympic pursuit champion have shown "none of those qualities previously"?
Wiggins has power numbers in spades, but only started concentrating on the GTs 2 years ago. Where's the mystery in that?
 
Father Jack

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/i/vy78w/

Link for Buck and Scott to chill. Whole retrospective on his life.

To keep on topic - I think JV is caught between a rock and a hard place, he has weighed up his options and decided discretion is the better part of valour, he will do more good staying within cycling rather than railing from the sidelines.

FJ
 
ultimobici

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JMBeaushrimp said:
I think that's Buckwheat's point - do the right thing.

Unfortunately the 'right thing' depends on your own paradigm.

Is JV doing the right thing? According to JV - a high-profile DS/Manager who obviously loves the sport and wants to stay in it - he IS doing the right thing. Bringing a little attention to doping, trying to find non-suicidal methods to clean the sport up a bit, and presenting a team that's more open than the vast majority.

Is that enough? Depends on your paradigm.

For Buckwheat, and a lot of other anti-dope cycling fans, it is not. We'd rather see someone like JV come totally clean and help blow the lid off the doping culture of cycling. Is he doing this? No, he is not.

JV's obviously playing the game a little bit, and with his ability to maintain diplomacy he should be looking at a future in politics.

I think Buck's rabid pursuit of 'spineless' stems from that. JV is in the know at many levels in regards to doping in cycling. His unwillingness to implicate himself, past teammates, current sponsors, and current riders in the doping culture is only an act promulgated by someone who wants to stay in the game.

Is he spineless? Probably depends on your definition. Is JV doing EVERYTHING he can to rid cycling of doping? Obviously not. Having the luxury of being able to adhere to absolutes (without cutting your own head off), is a luxury that Buckwheat has. I share that luxury with him - hence my love of being able to maintain annonymity on this forum.

I feel too much empathy for JV to label him as totally spineless. But I do feel a little disappointed, and that's coloured with a lot of cynicism, in terms of JV being the Holy Saviour of clean cycling. He is not. He's a politician in the political world of cycling.

Good luck, buddy....
Click to expand...
Exactly. JV could simply spill the beans on everything he knows but the risk is that he is put in the same position that GL is in. The problem is that he would be far far less effective outside the game than he is inside the game. Lemond will always be the centre of attention due to his Tour record, JV's shelf life outside the mileau of pro cycling is very short indeed.

If one looks at the timeline of the SCA trial and JV's career it's easy to see than at that time he was in a much more vunerable position. 6 years LA was still racing and at the height of his power, JV was just starting out with the 5280 team having morphed into TIAA-CREF. If he had opened up then the chances are that Garmin would not exist at all. The Armstrong PR machine would have treated him in the same way as they treated Landis and marginalised him. In 2004 it would have been much easier a job too.
 
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