Vaughter's Spine

[buckwheat]

JV having a spine press conference

Ok Buck.... I am somewhat confused on your posts.
The above is somewhat typical - lots of words yet little content that explains or furthers your POV which I find odd as you are well able to argue, debate and express your opinion.

I still don't see how JV is 'spineless'.
I mentioned this before - he is only an owner of a team, that is all he can control. He has no other power to effect change. All he can do is run his team to his standards.

Just thinking on it - people like JV and his team are among st the few giving hope and optimism in this sport. They are showing - with their own money and action - that a 'clean' team can be successful, profitable and entertaining.
I would have stopped following the Professional side of the sport if I didn't believe there were people involved in the sport who tried to do it clean.

Vaughters has stepped in at a difficult time and has kept the same principles and put his money where his mouth is - thats not only risky but involves having a spine.

circa SCA revelations

Hello, my name is JV. I was a professional cyclist for a decade and rode without drugs and with performance enhancing drugs. I rode on USPS. There was tremendous pressure to take PED's from both within the team and in the sport in particular. PED's confer unimaginable advantages, unimaginable if you don't have experience with them.

What FA and GL have said is largely accurate.

After leaving USPS and going to CA I found that LA's characterizations of widespread drug use on every team to be exaggerations....etc..so on and so forth.

I personally witnessed.....

My point, read the Kimmage interview with JV that Digger posted..Spineless.

That kind of thing would show he had a spine. Pretty clear?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

circa SCA revelations

Hello, my name is JV. I was a professional cyclist for a decade and rode without drugs and with performance enhancing drugs. I rode on USPS. There was tremendous pressure to take PED's from both within the team and in the sport in particular. PED's confer unimaginable advantages, unimaginable if you don't have experience with them.

What FA and GL have said is largely accurate.

After leaving USPS and going to CA I found that LA's characterizations of widespread drug use on every team to be exaggerations....etc..so on and so forth.

I personally witnessed.....

My point, read the Kimmage interview with JV that Digger posted..Spineless.

That kind of thing would show he had a spine. Pretty clear?

What do you know about JV's involvement in the SCA case?

He has a good bitching session with Frankie - telling stories he had heard. That is the problem - he did not witness the events, so what can he say? Ya, I wrote that, but I have no idea if its true - and if SCA wanted to show it was true they needed to talk to Floyd, not an opton at the time.

I have read the JV Kimmage interview - again I don't see what is spineless in it. He was asked about his doping, he did not say yes, but he made it pretty clear that he had. I understand Kimmages frustration but I don't see anything spineless in it.

You are making it sound that revolution is the only way forward, it is not.

 

[buckwheat]

What do you know about JV's involvement in the SCA case?

He has a good bitching session with Frankie - telling stories he had heard. That is the problem - he did not witness the events, so what can he say? Ya, I wrote that, but I have no idea if its true - and if SCA wanted to show it was true they needed to talk to Floyd, not an opton at the time.

I have read the JV Kimmage interview - again I don't see what is spineless in it. He was asked about his doping, he did not say yes, but he made it pretty clear that he had. I understand Kimmages frustration but I don't see anything spineless in it.

You are making it sound that revolution is the only way forward, it is not.

We've gone forward in this arena?

Look what Frankie said. I took EPO. Lance pressured me to see Dr. Ferrari and said I was cheap.

JV was being groomed to be a top lieutenant in the mountains. He personally doped and he personally knew a lot.

Kimmage- Did you dope?

JV- mumble, mmmm mumble, cough.....spineless.

The explanation from the wife was that his dad's a lawyer. Right.

JV thought pattern- What's the definition of the word "is."

Yup mumbling in response to a direct question says backbone to me...all the way.

"If my answers frighten you, you should cease asking scary questions"..LOL.

 

[Anonymous]

What do you know about JV's involvement in the SCA case?

He has a good bitching session with Frankie - telling stories he had heard. That is the problem - he did not witness the events, so what can he say? Ya, I wrote that, but I have no idea if its true - and if SCA wanted to show it was true they needed to talk to Floyd, not an opton at the time.

I have read the JV Kimmage interview - again I don't see what is spineless in it. He was asked about his doping, he did not say yes, but he made it pretty clear that he had. I understand Kimmages frustration but I don't see anything spineless in it.

You are making it sound that revolution is the only way forward, it is not.

Exactly. Balck or white, on or off, my way or the highway.

JV is showing there is a way other than a revolution but that's not good enough for some.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

We've gone forward in this arena?

Look what Frankie said. I took EPO. Lance pressured me to see Dr. Ferrari and said I was cheap.

JV was being groomed to be a top lieutenant in the mountains. He personally doped and he personally knew a lot.

Kimmage- Did you dope?

JV- mumble, mmmm mumble, cough.....spineless.

The explanation from the wife was that his dad's a lawyer. Right.

JV thought pattern- What's the definition of the word "is."

Yup mumbling in response to a direct question says backbone to me...all the way.

If you guys don't like my answers, you should stop asking frightening questions..LOL.

Jeez - Buck relax.

The reason I ask you and everyone else questions is to better understand the points - and base my opinion accordingly.
Sometimes I change my opinion if someones introduces something new, sometimes it merely cements my original opinion.

And with that I will go back and have a fresh read of the Kimmage JV article.

 

[buckwheat]

Exactly. Balck or white, on or off, my way or the highway.

JV is showing there is a way other than a revolution but that's not good enough for some.

The question isn't what's good enough, even though the answer is what we have now after a bunch of major disqualifications which have altered the outcome of the showcase race since 2006? How many?

JU, IB, FL, MR, AV, RR, Valverde, AC pending, others?

The question is whether JV has a spine. Not my question either.

Avoiding answers to very simple, direct, important questions, fulfills some of my criteria for spinelessness.

I guess we differ in this?

 

[Benotti69]

as an aside, an something which me laugh, is how many people are telling Buckwheat to 'Chill' or put another way 'Just relax'.....

I am enjoying bucks posts. Very passionate and very healthy. He has made a good point and i can see both sides of this argument.

JV is been a rock and a hard place right now.

Damned if he does by some damned if he doesn't by others...

 

[buckwheat]

Jeez - Buck relax.

The reason I ask you and everyone else questions is to better understand the points - and base my opinion accordingly.
Sometimes I change my opinion if someones introduces something new, sometimes it merely cements my original opinion.

And with that I will go back and have a fresh read of the Kimmage JV article.

But I AM
relaxed. I think the problem is that I've touched nerves and the ones here who are just as persistent as I am, are not relaxed.

BTW, I got that quote from Pulp Fiction wrong and corrected it.

I think many are missing the main points. I understand that being inflexible can be both good and bad. There's eastern philosophy that says, "go with the flow" and there's theologies that would say, fight lost causes till the death ie Patron Saint of Lost Causes, and the bigger the odds, the greater the payoff.

The irony here is that one of the main players (LA) is celebrated for being completely unreasonable in the face of death.

This is one of the fundemental issues of the drama of cycling, who's going to crack first, who's going to hang on the longest.

I find it quite funny that people are thrown off by such fundamental questions.

Remember that Armstrong himself was shunned and laughed at when he announced his comeback as a Tour rider. Who didn't laugh? Indurain..

14 year old Nick Faldo to his teacher in front of his class.

Nick- I'm dropping out of school to be a pro golfer

Teacher- That's one in a million

Nick- I'm the one.

other students-laughter.

I mean, c'mon! This is what backbone is and it's in flux. JV blinked. Someone jumped in and answered a question he should have answered himself.

What? He's going to shield himself when the big news breaks because of the sensationalism of LA going down?

 

[buckwheat]

as an aside, an something which me laugh, is how many people are telling Buckwheat to 'Chill' or put another way 'Just relax'.....
I am enjoying bucks posts. Very passionate and very healthy. He has made a good point and i can see both sides of this argument.

JV is been a rock and a hard place right now.

Damned if he does by some damned if he doesn't by others...

Exactly!

Made my day!

Later....

 

[Anonymous]

The question isn't what's good enough, even though the answer is what we have now after a bunch of major disqualifications which have altered the outcome of the showcase race since 2006? How many?

JU, IB, FL, MR, AV, RR, Valverde, AC pending, others?

The question is whether JV has a spine. Not my question either.

Avoiding answers to very simple, direct, important questions, fulfills some of my criteria for spinelessness.

I guess we differ in this?

I guess you don't realize sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

He doesn't have to throw bombs unnecessarily. Persuading hearts and minds can work and, like I said before, takes a spine to put into action.

What you consider spineless in JV's case might, just might be avoiding an unnecessary and unproductive detour into a bottomless pit. I think he's doing a better than decent job at keeping his eye on his prize, which is a systematic approach to major reductions of PED use in the pro peloton.

Time will tell if he's successful but, one more time, it's not a spineless position to take.

So, yeah, we differ (again).

 

[JRTinMA]

Exactly!

Made my day!

Later....

There you go...Buy the ticket, take the ride.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The question isn't what's good enough, even though the answer is what we have now after a bunch of major disqualifications which have altered the outcome of the showcase race since 2006? How many?

JU, IB, FL, MR, AV, RR, Valverde, AC pending, others?

The question is whether JV has a spine. Not my question either.

Avoiding answers to very simple, direct, important questions, fulfills some of my criteria for spinelessness.

I guess we differ in this?

Ok - I have reread the Kimmage piece.

JV did answer the question, it wasn't the answer PK wanted but he did answer- "Essentially, you are leading me down a path where I end up having to answer questions that I can’t back out of.”
You may call that spineless but what would have been the positive benefit from answering yes? Most riders merely lie when in that position.

But when you read the article as a whole you see that he left the sport, somewhat frustrated and sad. But yet he saw a juniour race and realised just what a great sport it is - he has since invested his time and money in this and upheld the principals he started out with.
Again I would not call that spineless - I would call that commendable.

 

[JRTinMA]

Ok - I have reread the Kimmage piece.

JV did answer the question, it wasn't the answer PK wanted but he did answer- "Essentially, you are leading me down a path where I end up having to answer questions that I can’t back out of.”
You may call that spineless but what would have been the positive benefit from answering yes? Most riders merely lie when in that position.

But when you read the article as a whole you see that he left the sport, somewhat frustrated and sad. But yet he saw a juniour race and realised just what a great sport it is - he has since invested his time and money in this and upheld the principals he started out with.
Again I would not call that spineless - I would call that commendable.

I realize you are just commenting on a prior post and maybe JVs comments are spineless but what does it matter? JV never claimed to be put here to clean up the entire sport, show me where he said that. He wanted to offer a team where riders didn't feel obligated to dope to get paid. He has done that and more.

None of this matters, nothing here is real except JV. Everybody else but the odd few who go by their real identity are impostors, posers or insignificant in cycling no matter who they CLAIM to be. I'm not saying the real ones aren't here but if you're anonymous you are fake. You want JV to be real in a world of real consequences but we feel its fair to debate him in a world with none. I respect Bucks views but JV has a life to live and a team to build and its all real.

What you all should have taken as the revelation from JVs words was in his first response. He was never deposed and his IM conversation was never submitted as evidence. It was presented as fact by a poster that he forgot everything and was essentially spineless when given the chance to roll on LA at he SCA hearing. Totally a spineless move except it never happened, there is more truth printed weekly in the National Examiner.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I realize you are just commenting on a prior post and maybe JVs comments are spineless but what does it matter? JV never claimed to be put here to clean up the entire sport, show me where he said that. He wanted to offer a team where riders didn't feel obligated to dope to get paid. He has done that and more.

None of this matters, nothing here is real except JV. Everybody else but the odd few who go by their real identity are impostors, posers or insignificant in cycling no matter who they CLAIM to be. I'm not saying the real ones aren't here but if you're anonymous you are fake. You want JV to be real in a world of real consequences but we feel its fair to debate him in a world with none. I respect Bucks views but JV has a life to live and a team to build and its all real.

What you all should have taken as the revelation from JVs words was in his first response. He was never deposed and his IM conversation was never submitted as evidence. It was presented as fact by a poster that he forgot everything and was essentially spineless when given the chance to roll on LA at he SCA hearing. Totally a spineless move except it never happened, there is more truth printed weekly in the National Examiner.

I don't know where you got any of your above from my post - I have copied it below again for you.

I appreciate everyones comment, regardless of who or what they are in cycling. Also, speak for yourself -I already knew JV was not deposed, nor had it any impact on the case and I posted earlier that it was not spineless what he did during the SCA case.

Ok - I have reread the Kimmage piece.

JV did answer the question, it wasn't the answer PK wanted but he did answer- "Essentially, you are leading me down a path where I end up having to answer questions that I can’t back out of.”
You may call that spineless but what would have been the positive benefit from answering yes? Most riders merely lie when in that position.

But when you read the article as a whole you see that he left the sport, somewhat frustrated and sad. But yet he saw a juniour race and realised just what a great sport it is - he has since invested his time and money in this and upheld the principals he started out with.
Again I would not call that spineless - I would call that commendable.

 

[Anonymous]

I think JV is kind of douchey, but for reasons far different than the OP. I think it was mentioned earlier: Lose the sideburns. That, and while I appreciate that one of the most powerful and well known DS's in the sport took his time to post here, I still get the feeling that he believes he is "slumming it" to do so. He seems to come here only to defend himself, but doesn't provide any other content which speaks of self esteem issues and not any desire to be a participant. In reality, he is just another person with insight and opinion on any given subject. Yea, he has far superior knowledge to any of us regarding just about any subject involving cycling discussed here, but so what? He is still just another swinging ****...with hideous sideburns.

But hey, I still cheer Farrar in every sprint. I even have a soft spot for the Canadian and VDV. I also remember my extreme disappointment in his bee sting '01. Not being able to take a shot to clear up an allergic reaction seems a bit draconian in relation to the fight against real doping.

 

[Digger]

I realize you are just commenting on a prior post and maybe JVs comments are spineless but what does it matter? JV never claimed to be put here to clean up the entire sport, show me where he said that. He wanted to offer a team where riders didn't feel obligated to dope to get paid. He has done that and more.

None of this matters, nothing here is real except JV. Everybody else but the odd few who go by their real identity are impostors, posers or insignificant in cycling no matter who they CLAIM to be. I'm not saying the real ones aren't here but if you're anonymous you are fake. You want JV to be real in a world of real consequences but we feel its fair to debate him in a world with none. I respect Bucks views but JV has a life to live and a team to build and its all real.

What you all should have taken as the revelation from JVs words was in his first response. He was never deposed and his IM conversation was never submitted as evidence. It was presented as fact by a poster that he forgot everything and was essentially spineless when given the chance to roll on LA at he SCA hearing. Totally a spineless move except it never happened, there is more truth printed weekly in the National Examiner.

Note: I never said he forgot this stuff.I addressed this later but what I will say is i honestly do believe it was a cop out to say that the IM was merely 'gossip' as quoted by cyclingnews. I am not saying spineless but I do feel it was a cop out.

I also disagree with Dr about the Sunday Times article. He danced around the answer for me. Just tell the truth completely....stop the second guessing that the reader is forced to do whilst reading - this isn;t the Sopranos ending for God sake. Maybe if JV told the truth back then, there wouldn't have been the ensuing mess now of Floyd, Jeff et al. I am not saying he was responsible for Floyd doping, but he really had so much knowledge about Floyd and USP.....and with this knowledge, he sat on it. And yes I do believe part of this was fear of the influence that LA has on the sport.

And then the AC attempted signing. I can't get my head around these things. But it's only my opinion.

 

[andy1234]

I think JV is kind of douchey, but for reasons far different than the OP. I think it was mentioned earlier: Lose the sideburns. That, and while I appreciate that one of the most powerful and well known DS's in the sport took his time to post here, I still get the feeling that he believes he is "slumming it" to do so. He seems to come here only to defend himself, but doesn't provide any other content which speaks of self esteem issues and not any desire to be a participant. In reality, he is just another person with insight and opinion on any given subject. Yea, he has far superior knowledge to any of us regarding just about any subject involving cycling discussed here, but so what? He is still just another swinging ****...with hideous sideburns.

But hey, I still cheer Farrar in every sprint. I even have a soft spot for the Canadian and VDV. I also remember my extreme disappointment in his bee sting '01. Not being able to take a shot to clear up an allergic reaction seems a bit draconian in relation to the fight against real doping.

This is the clinic, if this isn't slumming it, I dont know what is.

 

[Polish]

deleted by polish

 

[Polish]

This is the clinic, if this isn't slumming it, I dont know what is.

Yes, the clinic is a slum, an internet cesspool if you will.
But it is still nice of JV to come here.
Kind of like Mother Teresa?

.....pharmstrong.....pharmstrong......name names

JV probably NEVER saw Lance dope.....
And JV probably was NOT forced to dope by Lance....
Just saying.

...although sometimes talking to the media about every fart that is blown in the fight against doping is unproductive and actually hurts the end result

JV, I assume you consider the Alberto Affair a fart?
What type of fart? I am torn between a "Pull my Finger" and a "Silent but Deadly".

Who am I kidding...its a "Pull my Finger" bang bang.

http://www.toilette-humor.com/top-ten-farts.html
.
.
.

 

[Siriuscat]

I bet JV is sitting at home wetting himself at some of this stuff

 

[lean mean &green]

Note: I never said he forgot this stuff.I addressed this later but what I will say is i honestly do believe it was a cop out to say that the IM was merely 'gossip' as quoted by cyclingnews. I am not saying spineless but I do feel it was a cop out.

I also disagree with Dr about the Sunday Times article. He danced around the answer for me. Just tell the truth completely....stop the second guessing that the reader is forced to do whilst reading - this isn;t the Sopranos ending for God sake. Maybe if JV told the truth back then, there wouldn't have been the ensuing mess now of Floyd, Jeff et al. I am not saying he was responsible for Floyd doping, but he really had so much knowledge about Floyd and USP.....and with this knowledge, he sat on it. And yes I do believe part of this was fear of the influence that LA has on the sport.

And then the AC attempted signing. I can't get my head around these things. But it's only my opinion.

the AC discusssions were when i started to seriously doubt vaughters. did anyone knowledgeable think that contador was clean then let alone now? david millar's comments are also a little too ambiguous for my taste.

this entire thread is asking the WRONG question. i'm pretty confident vaughters has a spine. what i really want to know is whether he is pushing change or the status quo in better packaging. the most important question is whether or not you think he's for real. is he fighting tooth and nail and making small calculated compromises to keep his clean team relevant and profitable while establishing a new paradigm in which sound ethics lead to success so that others may follow? ...or is he establishing a new precedent in which lip service and clean-marketing are being used to take the pressure off no matter if your drug free or not? it is a high-stakes gamble in that one makes you a hero and the other makes you a goat. i honestly don't know which one he's attempting and if i can't tell he's failed at whichever one he's chosen.

 

[Anonymous]

This is the clinic, if this isn't slumming it, I dont know what is.

Yea, people like you and Polish make this place kind of dank. Good to see that you both are self actualized enough to know your place in this world.

 

[Digger]

the AC discusssions were when i started to seriously doubt vaughters. did anyone knowledgeable think that contador was clean then let alone now? david millar's comments are also a little too ambiguous for my taste.

this entire thread is asking the WRONG question. i'm pretty confident vaughters has a spine. what i really want to know is whether he is pushing change or the status quo in better packaging. the most important question is whether or not you think he's for real. is he fighting tooth and nail and making small calculated compromises to keep his clean team relevant and profitable while establishing a new paradigm in which sound ethics lead to success so that others may follow? ...or is he establishing a new precedent in which lip service and clean-marketing are being used to take the pressure off no matter if your drug free or not? it is a high-stakes gamble in that one makes you a hero and the other makes you a goat. i honestly don't know which one he's attempting and if i can't tell he's failed at whichever one he's chosen.

I just don't know, AC testing positive was a surprise, not because he doped, but because he was caught. And it was so blatantly obvious that he was doping, Operation Puerto alone, and for JV to be considering signing him.

One thing I've noticed lately about the cycling Omerta. Crime Omerta is often centred around fear. But in cycling, some of the Omerta is centred on protecting your buddy. Evidence of this was when JV spoke up for Floyd in 2006 when the positive test came up. Are people protecting their buddies, or their sport? Actually as I am typing this, I am getting irate. How can you, Jonathon, be a proponent of clean cycling, and be fighting so hard for this goal, when so much information you had, you sat on, and kept your mouth shut? What about cleansing the sport of a certain DS? What about the young riders who have to ride for this guy?
But then people's attitude to doping, within the sport, can be so changeable. Cavendish on Lance. Bradley on Lance. David Millar on Alberto and Vino. People's attitude to doping depends on the profile of the rider caught. Ricco for example. It's a game of politics............and truth is second.

 

[JRTinMA]

I don't know where you got any of your above from my post - I have copied it below again for you.

I appreciate everyones comment, regardless of who or what they are in cycling. Also, speak for yourself -I already knew JV was not deposed, nor had it any impact on the case and I posted earlier that it was not spineless what he did during the SCA case.

It was not directed at you which is why I stated it in my first sentence. It was at the greater point of people calling him spineless.

 

[buckwheat]

I guess you don't realize sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

He doesn't have to throw bombs unnecessarily. Persuading hearts and minds can work and, like I said before, takes a spine to put into action.

What you consider spineless in JV's case might, just might be avoiding an unnecessary and unproductive detour into a bottomless pit. I think he's doing a better than decent job at keeping his eye on his prize, which is a systematic approach to major reductions of PED use in the pro peloton.

Time will tell if he's successful but, one more time, it's not a spineless position to take.

So, yeah, we differ (again).

He's been discrete enough to keep the whole sport in the cesspool and it's even crept back into his team.

The questions Lean Green and Mean is asking are proof positive that the sport, and Garmin, is in the same predicament it has been.

The only answer to this would have been unambiguous truthful statements. JV didn't have the wherewithal to do as much as a Riis and say he's not a worthy champion or rider.

People are forgiven when they admit wrongdoing. I feel sorry for JV that he couldn't man up and allocute. The court of public opinion is very forgiving. Now it seems that we have a proverbial federal investigation to set things straight.


If Vaughters would have spoken up when he could have, he might also have averted the ridiculous spectacle of LA's drug soaked comeback.

Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never.......ring a bell?

Oh, and add Betsy Andreu to the spine list.

Oh, a couple things I'd like to give some credit to JV for. The soft pedaling comment regarding Armstrong was a classic, and punking Jawge, when he so desperately wanted the yellow was huge. Real good shots.