Vaughter's Spine

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buckwheat said:
He's been discrete enough to keep the whole sport in the cesspool and it's even crept back into his team.

The questions Lean Green and Mean are asking are proof positive that the sport, and Garmin, is in the same predicament it has been.

The only answer to this would have been unambiguous truthful statements. JV didn't have the wherewithal to do as much as a Riis and say he's not a worthy champion or rider.

Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never.......ring a bell?
I've got to admit....Riis did ring a bell today when i thought of Jonathon.
 

Dr. Maserati

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buckwheat said:
He's been discrete enough to keep the whole sport in the cesspool and it's even crept back into his team.

The questions Lean Green and Mean is asking are proof positive that the sport, and Garmin, is in the same predicament it has been.

The only answer to this would have been unambiguous truthful statements. JV didn't have the wherewithal to do as much as a Riis and say he's not a worthy champion or rider.

People are forgiven when they admit wrongdoing. I feel sorry for JV that he couldn't man up and allocute. The court of public opinion is very forgiving. Now it seems that we have a proverbial federal investigation to set things straight.


If Vaughters would have spoken up when he could have, he might also have averted the ridiculous spectacle of LA's drug soaked comeback.

Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never.......ring a bell?

Oh, and add Betsy Andreu to the spine list.

Oh, a couple things I'd like to give some credit to JV for. The soft pedaling comment regarding Armstrong was a classic, and punking Jawge, when he so desperately wanted the yellow was huge. Real good shots.
I think the highlighted is where you have gone awry in your arguements.

Sticking one in to LA is not necassarily anti-doping.
Particularly as JV did that interview when LA was retired - and he would not have known about the comeback - as far as everyone was concerned we had moved on.

JV is running a clean team, he is not trying to clean up the sport,

You expect JV to talk to a reporter and tell everything he and his various teams did or witnessed- there would be no need for PED tests if it was all that easy.

You bring up BetsyA, who I have enormous respect for - but she only spoke out because she was called to testify.
If JV is called in for this present investigation and hides from the truth, then spineless would probably the nicest word I would say about him.
 
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I would imagine that JV will be called to the grand jury at some point. If so, I would hope he is willing to step up.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
I think the highlighted is where you have gone awry in your arguements.

Sticking one in to LA is not necassarily anti-doping.
Particularly as JV did that interview when LA was retired - and he would not have known about the comeback - as far as everyone was concerned we had moved on.

JV is running a clean team, he is not trying to clean up the sport,

You expect JV to talk to a reporter and tell everything he and his various teams did or witnessed- there would be no need for PED tests if it was all that easy.

You bring up BetsyA, who I have enormous respect for - but she only spoke out because she was called to testify.
If JV is called in for this present investigation and hides from the truth, then spineless would probably the nicest word I would say about him.
That's fair enough........
 
buckwheat said:
...

Oh, a couple things I'd like to give some credit to JV for. ...
How about one more?

Hundreds of posts ago on this thread JV (or someone claiming to be JV) expressed curiousity in what I knew, and offered to speak to me directly about it.

That is definitely with spine.

Floyd & I, and Will & I, and a bunch of nasty Floyd supporters & I had plenty of Forum back-and-forth dialog (on that other site), and not once did any of them ever indicate interest or willingness to speak directly. Not even after I PM'd with congrats for stepping forward.

I must have 2-3,000 posts on Floyd over there. JV responded to my first post on this subject here.

Unfortunately, I am not sure he will ever read my acceptance of his offer as that has long ago been drowned out.

Dave.
 

buckwheat

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Dr. Maserati said:
I think the highlighted is where you have gone awry in your arguements.

Sticking one in to LA is not necassarily anti-doping.
I think sticking one to LA in the media, if it would have gotten him to back off, is preferable to the all out federal investigation we're having now.

Particularly as JV did that interview when LA was retired - and he would not have known about the comeback - as far as everyone was concerned we had moved on.

JV is running a clean team, he is not trying to clean up the sport,[/QUOTE]

He's written of being moved by the kids riding. Wouldn't he want the sport to be a good thing for them too when the time came. Your sentence kind of makes no sense to me.



Dr. Maserati said:
You expect JV to talk to a reporter and tell everything he and his various teams did or witnessed- there would be no need for PED tests if it was all that easy.
Why isn't making a statement easy. You move your lips and the truth comes out. Might have averted the stupidity of 06, 07, 09,10.

I'm dying to know why Vaughters couldn't have either elaborated about what went on or confessed to his own usage.


Dr. Maserati said:
You bring up BetsyA, who I have enormous respect for - but she only spoke out because she was called to testify.
If JV is called in for this present investigation and hides from the truth, then spineless would probably the nicest word I would say about him.
If JV could've dissuaded Armstrong from coming back with some early straight talk to the media and the authorities, maybe we wouldn't need this public investigation. Armstrong might not have bad mouthed CVV and Sastre for their 2008 performances which was recognized as the cleanest race in years.
LA could have just gone quietly. As much as I think he's a jerk this investigation is not a great thing for anyone.

If straight talk from Vaughters prevented his team from moving into the Pro tour, that just signifies the cesspool is all pervasive.

All of this is kind of O/T anyway.
 

buckwheat

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D-Queued said:
How about one more?

Hundreds of posts ago on this thread JV (or someone claiming to be JV) expressed curiousity in what I knew, and offered to speak to me directly about it.

That is definitely with spine.

Floyd & I, and Will & I, and a bunch of nasty Floyd supporters & I had plenty of Forum back-and-forth dialog (on that other site), and not once did any of them ever indicate interest or willingness to speak directly. Not even after I PM'd with congrats for stepping forward.

I must have 2-3,000 posts on Floyd over there. JV responded to my first post on this subject here.

Unfortunately, I am not sure he will ever read my acceptance of his offer as that has long ago been drowned out.

Dave.
Dave,

Why don't you send him a PM?

Personally I think all this stuff about his sideburns, his style, his wine tasting, or whatever is completely meaningless.

I don't care if the guy is a flamboyant homosexual who sings showtunes while wearing a mini skirt and high heels.

I think equivocating when you're asked a direct question on a very important issue by a respected journalist, and you're promoting your team as part of a new era in cycling; I think that's a real big deal to say the least.

I think the reasons he equivocated are terribly lame.

I see how someone can start a thread with the title of this one.

One other thing, I think JV should be thanking us for still giving a damn about a sport that is somewhat of a joke.

Don't forget that both Vino and Basso came back this year and won some of the biggest races in the sport.

Then we have guys who are riding so fast that it's not beyond the realm of possiblity that they have motors in their bikes.
 
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BroDeal said:
his clean cycling stance was nothing more than a public relations scam from the very beginning.
I agree with your opinion and mine. Most teams for last year's Tour were doped, only a handful of unsuccessful riders raced clean, and they struggled just to finish or DNF'd.
 

buckwheat

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BigBoat said:
I agree with your opinion and mine. Most teams for last year's Tour were doped, only a handful of unsuccessful riders raced clean, and they struggled just to finish or DNF'd.
I like your style. Whether it's true or not, who knows? Maybe you do, I don't

That's why people like JV need to be as unambiguous as possible in their PR.
 

buckwheat

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Funny

andy1234 said:
Who rattled your cage?
I happen to agree with him most of the time but he does get really testy. Especially for a guy who liberally tosses around the insults. If you retaliate in any way he threatens to put you on his ignore list.

What's this ignore list stuff anyway? Just laugh or turn off the computer.
 
A

Anonymous

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buckwheat said:
I happen to agree with him most of the time but he does get really testy. Especially for a guy who liberally tosses around the insults. If you retaliate in any way he threatens to put you on his ignore list.

What's this ignore list stuff anyway? Just laugh or turn off the computer.
You don't love me, you just love my doggie style.
 
In an e-mail to The News, Mr. Vaughters said that the online conversation did take place but that he did not believe the transcript was
complete or entirely true. "That conversation was a private conversation with [a] bunch of embellishments and BS, and shouldn't be taken otherwise. I don't have any first hand knowledge of any of this stuff

http://www.scribd.com/doc/34168878/In-Armstrong-s-World-Fear-Paranoia-Prevail

Now in light of the following comments in the IM, and their level of detail and authenticity, how truthful does this statement above sound?

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

"So, I realized lance was full of **** when he'd say everyone was doing it

so, that's when you start thinking... hell, kevin was telling me that after 2000 Ullrich never raced over 42%--- yeah moreau in 2000-2001

from how floyd described it, i know exactly the methos

yeah, it's very complex how the avoid all the controls now, but it's not any new drug or anything, just the resources and planning to pull of a well devised plan

it's why they all got dropped on stage 9 - no refill yet - then on the rest day - boom 800ml of packed cells

they draw the blood right after the dauphine"
 
buckwheat said:
I happen to agree with him most of the time but he does get really testy. Especially for a guy who liberally tosses around the insults. If you retaliate in any way he threatens to put you on his ignore list.

What's this ignore list stuff anyway? Just laugh or turn off the computer.
Well he's off the invite list for my wine and cheese evening now.
Hopefully that'll learn im.
 

buckwheat

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Dr. Maserati said:
I think the highlighted is where you have gone awry in your arguements.

Sticking one in to LA is not necassarily anti-doping.
Particularly as JV did that interview when LA was retired - and he would not have known about the comeback - as far as everyone was concerned we had moved on.

JV is running a clean team, he is not trying to clean up the sport,

You expect JV to talk to a reporter and tell everything he and his various teams did or witnessed- there would be no need for PED tests if it was all that easy.

You bring up BetsyA, who I have enormous respect for - but she only spoke out because she was called to testify.
If JV is called in for this present investigation and hides from the truth, then spineless would probably the nicest word I would say about him.
Let me make clear, I have not gone awry in any way shape or form.

The person who has gone awry is the subject of this forum.

You always, always, always, do the right thing!

If you don't do the right thing, you are lost. If you don't know what the right thing is, again, you are lost.

One answers honestly once, you don't have the next 4 or 5 years with a festering wound.

I've brought up very on point examples of what it means to do the right thing.

These examples are timeless.

In ancient times, the Romans would go up to the Stoic philosophers and say, "cut your beard off, or we're going to kill you." The Stoics would respond, "you mean this jar of clay and these four quarts of blood.?" "I only have it on loan anyway." "You do what you have to do, and I'll do what I have to do."

Nero would put on plays where he'd try to humiliate the Stoics and other intellectuals.

One day a librarian is summoned to appear in a play, he approaches Epictetus, a Stoic who has also been summoned. If they don't appear, death.

Librarian; What do we do?

Epictetus; You appear, I'm not going to.

Librarian; Why do I appear and not you?

Epictetus; Because you've considered it.

This is what it means to have a Spine.

The Stoics didn't believe in dilemmas. There is no such thing as being between a rock and a hard place, according to them. You assent to what's true and dissent from what's false. You don't concern yourself with stuff out of your control.

John Hancock was another guy that understood what it meant to have a Spine. The guy was a rich playboy his whole life.

He was also a Revolutionary. He could have gone along with the authorities and lived a comfortable life.. Instead he put his giant beautiful signature on the Declaration of Eff You.

You realize, that is what he was saying? Who do you think was the first person they were going to string up if the revolt was crushed?

OTOH, we have Vaughters and his "considerations."

SPINELESS.
 

flicker

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buckwheat said:
Let me make clear, I have not gone awry in any way shape or form.

The person who has gone awry is the subject of this forum.

You always, always, always, do the right thing!

If you don't do the right thing, you are lost. If you don't know what the right thing is, again, you are lost.

One answers honestly once, you don't have the next 4 or 5 years with a festering wound.

I've brought up very on point examples of what it means to do the right thing.

These examples are timeless.

In ancient times, the Romans would go up to the Stoic philosophers and say, "cut your beard off, or we're going to kill you." The Stoics would respond, "you mean this jar of clay and these four quarts of blood.?" "I only have it on loan anyway." "You do what you have to do, and I'll do what I have to do."

Nero would put on plays where he'd try to humiliate the Stoics and other intellectuals.

One day a librarian is summoned to appear in a play, he approaches Epictetus, a Stoic who has also been summoned. If they don't appear, death.

Librarian; What do we do?

Epictetus; You appear, I'm not going to.

Librarian; Why do I appear and not you?

Epictetus; Because you've considered it.

This is what it means to have a Spine.

The Stoics didn't believe in dilemmas. There is no such thing as being between a rock and a hard place, according to them. You assent to what's true and dissent from what's false. You don't concern yourself with stuff out of your control.

John Hancock was another guy that understood what it meant to have a Spine. The guy was a rich playboy his whole life.

He was also a Revolutionary. He could have gone along with the authorities and lived a comfortable life.. Instead he put his giant beautiful signature on the Declaration of Eff You.

You realize, that is what he was saying? Who do you think was the first person they were going to string up if they caught him?

OTOH, we have Vaughters and his "considerations."

SPINELESS.
I agree. You throw the grenade and I will jump on it. (to protect you)
 
Aug 9, 2010
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buckwheat said:
Blah

SPINELESS.
What a lovely, simple, black and white world you live in. You really, truly don't get it, do you? JV is operating in the real world, with real world considerations to deal with. If that isn't good enough for you well, tough. Grow up and deal with it. I'd rather have a good guy like JV running a team and dancing on the tightrope inside the tent than have him spilling everything he knows from the safety of his real estate and fine wine dealership.

Meanwhile, keep banging out your pompous, self-righteous drivel from the safety of an anonymous keyboard.
 

flicker

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buck weet,
Vaughters:
You have an ex pro who chooses to stay active in the sport, has both, the one and only LeMond and David Miller working together in the same organization, puts together the bio-passport, hires top US pro Peter Stetina, daveZ, and farrar, top sprinter plus other greats, deals with the UCI, attracts sponsors,(my guess he writes the grants requesting sponsorship) wears kool glasses and wears quirky clothes, has the up yers arguile look crazy sideburns.

Spineless not!
 
I am not quite sure of how much more JV could do in this situation, I am still learning all the details. I applaud him for coming on this forum and opening himself to abuse. But I especially like the conviction of buckwheat. I believe him to be a stand up guy and I would have his back anytime. Some of these other wishy-washy delusional characters here. Sheesh
 
May 26, 2010
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Chuffy said:
....
Meanwhile, keep banging out your pompous, self-righteous drivel from the safety of an anonymous keyboard.
aren't 99% of the CN forum members doing this too?

Great thread in which Buckwheat is making some very passionate posts. Others are defending JV which is their anonymous keyboard self righteous right;)
 

flicker

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Benotti69 said:
aren't 99% of the CN forum members doing this too?

Great thread in which Buckwheat is making some very passionate posts. Others are defending JV which is their anonymous keyboard self righteous right;)
Would it help if I did a little Armstrong bashing 2. I swing both ways bro.
 
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