Vaughter's Spine

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Jul 4, 2009
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buckwheat said:
American/Anglo exceptionalism.

I've been lapping a lot of this stuff up lately.
...the world has been awash with that stuff for centuries...and you've clued in just lately...wow!...keep it up, you're doing a great job Mr. Wheat...

Cheers

blutto
 
Jul 4, 2009
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buckwheat said:
American/Anglo exceptionalism.

I've been lapping a lot of this stuff up lately.
...sorry to repeat myself but the following is the full message...seemed I misplayed the editing function....

------------------------------------------------------------------------

...the world has been awash with that stuff for centuries...and you've clued in just lately...wow!...I guess that is what happens when you are too busy imposing yourself onto the world instead of actually stopping and trying to understand how it actually works...keep it up, you're doing a great job Mr. Wheat...at least in your very circumscribed circle of one...

...JV is, judging from the information that is currently available, a realist with a keen understanding of the world as it is...you sir, are a fundamentalist, too busy imposing your perfect world view upon a world you barely understand...and yes I've seen you padding your intellectual resume with references to high falutin books but remember... but remember in the case of good books, the point is not how many of them you can get through or quote, but rather how many can get through to you...and I would venture in your case not many at all because as a fundamentalist your world-view has probably been heavily blinkered for a long time...it must be lonely where you are intellectually, seeing as you are the only one who who really and truly sees the truth in a world that is so obviously wrong on so many levels...

Cheers

blutto
 
Oct 25, 2010
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washedup said:
Instead, we get some wishywashy statement about rider x and why this is a complicated case. Any thoughts?
My feelings are that Vaughters has made numerous vague, incomplete statements over the years and made hint after hint that "he knows this and that" and that because of these non-statements, that he's now "Mr. Clean" with his team.

I do not consider Vaughters to be a part of the clean racing movement. Not until he spills the beans, breaks Omerta, and grows a pair.

Mr. Vaughters, as I said on Velonews: I like you, liked riding WITH you, respect what you SEEM to care about, etc. But I can not consider you a part of the clean cycling movement until you provide the racing community with a more thorough accounting of your background AND you are more willing to take more fervently anti-doping positions TODAY.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Benotti69 said:
if it comes out that he told Novitsky everything and had a hand in getting the truth out about what really went on it would go some way to excusing his performance in court.

but in a cesspit of the sport he is by all appearances just above it, whether has has a foot in it i don't know
I hope he is reading this. Right now he's sitting-pretty on top of the "clean racing" bandwagon, and I'm quite certain that his position is not very well deserved.
 

buckwheat

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Sep 24, 2009
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blutto said:
...sorry to repeat myself but the following is the full message...seemed I misplayed the editing function....

------------------------------------------------------------------------

...the world has been awash with that stuff for centuries...and you've clued in just lately...wow!...I guess that is what happens when you are too busy imposing yourself onto the world instead of actually stopping and trying to understand how it actually works...keep it up, you're doing a great job Mr. Wheat...at least in your very circumscribed circle of one...

...JV is, judging from the information that is currently available, a realist with a keen understanding of the world as it is...you sir, are a fundamentalist, too busy imposing your perfect world view upon a world you barely understand...and yes I've seen you padding your intellectual resume with references to high falutin books but remember... but remember in the case of good books, the point is not how many of them you can get through or quote, but rather how many can get through to you...and I would venture in your case not many at all because as a fundamentalist your world-view has probably been heavily blinkered for a long time...it must be lonely where you are intellectually, seeing as you are the only one who who really and truly sees the truth in a world that is so obviously wrong on so many levels...

Cheers

blutto
Lots of Pharisees around. Thanks for affirming that.

BTW, you read the Kimmage piece or my man BotanyBay?
 

buckwheat

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Sep 24, 2009
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ultimobici said:
Exactly. JV could simply spill the beans on everything he knows but the risk is that he is put in the same position that GL is in. The problem is that he would be far far less effective outside the game than he is inside the game. Lemond will always be the centre of attention due to his Tour record, JV's shelf life outside the mileau of pro cycling is very short indeed.

If one looks at the timeline of the SCA trial and JV's career it's easy to see than at that time he was in a much more vunerable position. 6 years LA was still racing and at the height of his power, JV was just starting out with the 5280 team having morphed into TIAA-CREF. If he had opened up then the chances are that Garmin would not exist at all. The Armstrong PR machine would have treated him in the same way as they treated Landis and marginalised him. In 2004 it would have been much easier a job too.

Hello?

Inside the Game? The biggest Champ in the sport is the new Ben Johnson.

What will it take to wake you up?
 
Mar 17, 2009
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buckwheat said:
Lots of Pharisees around. Thanks for affirming that.

BTW, you read the Kimmage piece or my man BotanyBay?
Pharisees?

Life must be hard if you live by the creed you promulgate here. Everything is black or white, right or wrong. Moral absolutism is a hard road to follow, I have to take my hat off to you if you actually practice what you expect JV to do.
 

buckwheat

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Sep 24, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
I hope he is reading this. Right now he's sitting-pretty on top of the "clean racing" bandwagon, and I'm quite certain that his position is not very well deserved.
He's not according to Twitter

http://twitter.com/Reid_Rothschild


@Vaughters You still reading the Vaughters Spine thread on cyclingnews forums?
about 14 hours ago via web in reply to Vaughters


http://twitter.com/Vaughters


@Reid_Rothschild.. No no..Every once in a while I give it an effort, as I actually appreciate the contrarianism of the forum, but I failed..
about 13 hours ago via ÜberTwitter in reply to Reid_Rothschild

Retweeted by you and 1 other
 

buckwheat

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Sep 24, 2009
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ultimobici said:
Pharisees?

Life must be hard if you live by the creed you promulgate here. Everything is black or white, right or wrong. Moral absolutism is a hard road to follow, I have to take my hat off to you if you actually practice what you expect JV to do.
Who the heck ever said life was going to be easy?

The whole point of cycling is that it's hard if you missed that point.

JC laid down those ideals. You have a problem with it, consult the proper authorities.

Dude, did you see how Cesar Chavez was eulogized in Time Magazine?;

"He understood what all Saints do, you give everything and you get what you get."

He wasn't living in the real world with the UFW though.:rolleyes:

My sincere condolences for you for not understanding this stuff. You go out and ride your bike and try to transcend all of the obstacles. Are you always succesful? Of course not.

Most of you guys have no idea about the mentality of a champion. Champions are people who are unreasonable in the face of great odds.

You'd think we're on the forum for Actuaries!
 
Jul 6, 2010
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I think idealists and absolutists, like Buckwheat, provide a crucial component to debat, discussion, and education.

The world may not be totally black and white, but being presented with absolute beliefs forces one to refine arguments, question their own beliefs, and hopefully fine-tune the debate.

I have seen this happen on this thread. There were a lot of 'Buckwheat's insane' comments that morphed into 'oh, I can see where Buckwheat's coming from'.

Anyhow, it's forced a lot of people to evaluate their opinion of JV in terms of his role in cleaning up cycling. That can only help the discussion...
 
Mar 17, 2009
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buckwheat said:
Hello?

Inside the Game? The biggest Champ in the sport is the new Ben Johnson.

What will it take to wake you up?
So JV sings the full aria. He bares his soul and we learn all he knows about doping practices at USPS, names are named etc.

In the wake of this he now has to split his time between team duties, dealing with the extra media attention and the numerous law suits that are filed by the riders he names.

He would soon become unemployable.
 

buckwheat

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Sep 24, 2009
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ultimobici said:
So JV sings the full aria. He bares his soul and we learn all he knows about doping practices at USPS, names are named etc.

In the wake of this he now has to split his time between team duties, dealing with the extra media attention and the numerous law suits that are filed by the riders he names.

He would soon become unemployable.
It's kinda late now with the Fed. Investigation. The time to stop cowering was when he was asked questions straight out. Heaven forbid he answer honestly.

Law abiding citizens are also unemployable in La Cosa Nostra.

Really, step back from Pro Cycling, way, way, way, back and get some perspective.

Trees, forests, that kind of stuff.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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buckwheat said:
Who the heck ever said life was going to be easy?

The whole point of cycling is that it's hard if you missed that point.

JC laid down those ideals. You have a problem with it, consult the proper authorities.

Dude, did you see how Cesar Chavez was eulogized in Time Magazine?;

"He understood what all Saints do, you give everything and you get what you get."

He wasn't living in the real world with the UFW though.:rolleyes:

My sincere condolences for you for not understanding this stuff. You go out and ride your bike and try to transcend the all of the obstacles. Are you always succesful? Of course not.

Most of you guys have no idea about the mentality of a champion. Champion's are people who are unreasonable in the face of great odds.

You'd think we're on the forum for Actuaries!
No I understand what you are driving at.

But I disagree with your assertion that JV has to act like a MLK/Chavez/Gandhi figure for the sake of cycling.

Some people are able and prepared to stand up and confront a problem head on. Others recognise that they are unlikely to win or have a lasting effect so bide their time. That is not to say they are any less committed to changing things, just that they want to make what they do count. The jury's out on JV IMO. When the Armstrong Investigation is concluded, then I think we'll be able to make a judgement.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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buckwheat said:
It's kinda late now with the Fed. Investigation. The time to stop cowering was when he was asked questions straight out. Heaven forbid he answer honestly.

Law abiding citizens are also unemployable in La Cosa Nostra.

Really, step back from Pro Cycling, way, way, way, back and get some perspective.

Trees, forests, that kind of stuff.
We have no way of knowing what if anything he has said in the Federal case. So how can you make an assessment of his actions?
 

buckwheat

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Sep 24, 2009
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JMBeaushrimp said:
I think idealists and absolutists, like Buckwheat, provide a crucial component to debat, discussion, and education.

The world may not be totally black and white, but being presented with absolute beliefs forces one to refine arguments, question their own beliefs, and hopefully fine-tune the debate.

I have seen this happen on this thread. There were a lot of 'Buckwheat's insane' comments that morphed into 'oh, I can see where Buckwheat's coming from'.

Anyhow, it's forced a lot of people to evaluate their opinion of JV in terms of his role in cleaning up cycling. That can only help the discussion...
Remember Tolstoy, greatest novelist ever.

Complete absolutist and idealist. Was mocked for those beliefs. At the end he ran away from home at 83 years old.

Einstein, complete absolutist and idealist. People who misunderstood his science believe he was a MORAL relatavist. Couldn't be further from the truth. Einstein was mocked when it was safe, when he couldn't pull any more e=mc2's out of his hat.

Every great advance is met with mockery.

JC, absolute mockery and murder at the hands of the authorities.

On a much, much, much, much lower level. LeMond comes out with an obvious statement which was way less absolute. 'If it's true, greatest comeback, if it's not, greatest fraud.'

Please tell me what happened to him.

Wake up people.
 

buckwheat

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Sep 24, 2009
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ultimobici said:
We have no way of knowing what if anything he has said in the Federal case. So how can you make an assessment of his actions?
When was the IM and Kimmage interview?

When did the Fed case start?

These are very weasely contentions you're bringing up if you don't realize it already.
 

buckwheat

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Sep 24, 2009
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ultimobici said:
No I understand what you are driving at.

But I disagree with your assertion that JV has to act like a MLK/Chavez/Gandhi figure for the sake of cycling.

Some people are able and prepared to stand up and confront a problem head on. Others recognise that they are unlikely to win or have a lasting effect so bide their time. That is not to say they are any less committed to changing things, just that they want to make what they do count. The jury's out on JV IMO. When the Armstrong Investigation is concluded, then I think we'll be able to make a judgement.
Nobody has to do anything. Obviously those historic figures risked their lives. To say that JV isn't any less committed when the stakes are not even in the same universe? You're joking!

Tell me what happened in the last 5 years of the marquee event of the sport?

The question is Spine or no.

The answer is becoming completely obvious.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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buckwheat said:
Nobody has to do anything. Obviously those historic figures risked their lives. To say that JV isn't any less committed when the stakes are not even in the same universe? You're joking!

Tell me what happened in the last 5 years of the marquee event of the sport?

The question is Spine or no.

The answer is becoming completely obvious.
Did you read the last paragraph of my post?

The fact that someone as uncompromisingly outspoken as Lemond is actually works with Garmin suggests to me that there is commonality between their beliefs. Lemond strikes me as someone who would not be involved if he thought otherwise.

I think you may find that JV ends up being the baseball bat that Armstrong is belted round the back of the head with.
 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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Now if JV could only act like Jello Biafra or Barry Lyndon while wearin the Argyle outfit sporting a mohawk but keeping the sideburns and a french ticklr facial hair, now dat be wat I talking bout Willis, Spine-on!
 

buckwheat

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Sep 24, 2009
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blutto said:
...the world has been awash with that stuff for centuries...and you've clued in just lately...wow!...keep it up, you're doing a great job Mr. Wheat...

Cheers

blutto
uuuhhh, iiittt.......waaasss.....a.......joke.......:rolleyes:
 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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Thanks for the Kimmage article. He shoots from the hip and obviously knows what hew is talking about. You cannot ask anyone who is as involved in the business of cycling to be as outspoken and honest as Kimmage.
He is a threatening man and is valuable in that way. Please do not ask Jonathon to be that way, it would lead to chaos in the peloton.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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buckwheat said:
He's not according to Twitter
He's aware, and that means he's looking. Good enough for me. He's no "anti-doping" force in professional racing. He's an opportunist. He (correctly) guessed that there were enough clean racing fans out there to justify that as a positioning (see the "P's of marketing") for his team. But he's just as much a part of the problem with his refusal to contribute to accountability for the past. Before you can "move forward", one must show that they actually knew where they once were.
 
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