...the world has been awash with that stuff for centuries...and you've clued in just lately...wow!...keep it up, you're doing a great job Mr. Wheat...buckwheat said:American/Anglo exceptionalism.
I've been lapping a lot of this stuff up lately.
...sorry to repeat myself but the following is the full message...seemed I misplayed the editing function....buckwheat said:American/Anglo exceptionalism.
I've been lapping a lot of this stuff up lately.
My feelings are that Vaughters has made numerous vague, incomplete statements over the years and made hint after hint that "he knows this and that" and that because of these non-statements, that he's now "Mr. Clean" with his team.washedup said:Instead, we get some wishywashy statement about rider x and why this is a complicated case. Any thoughts?
I hope he is reading this. Right now he's sitting-pretty on top of the "clean racing" bandwagon, and I'm quite certain that his position is not very well deserved.Benotti69 said:if it comes out that he told Novitsky everything and had a hand in getting the truth out about what really went on it would go some way to excusing his performance in court.
but in a cesspit of the sport he is by all appearances just above it, whether has has a foot in it i don't know
Lots of Pharisees around. Thanks for affirming that.blutto said:...sorry to repeat myself but the following is the full message...seemed I misplayed the editing function....
...the world has been awash with that stuff for centuries...and you've clued in just lately...wow!...I guess that is what happens when you are too busy imposing yourself onto the world instead of actually stopping and trying to understand how it actually works...keep it up, you're doing a great job Mr. Wheat...at least in your very circumscribed circle of one...
...JV is, judging from the information that is currently available, a realist with a keen understanding of the world as it is...you sir, are a fundamentalist, too busy imposing your perfect world view upon a world you barely understand...and yes I've seen you padding your intellectual resume with references to high falutin books but remember... but remember in the case of good books, the point is not how many of them you can get through or quote, but rather how many can get through to you...and I would venture in your case not many at all because as a fundamentalist your world-view has probably been heavily blinkered for a long time...it must be lonely where you are intellectually, seeing as you are the only one who who really and truly sees the truth in a world that is so obviously wrong on so many levels...
ultimobici said:Exactly. JV could simply spill the beans on everything he knows but the risk is that he is put in the same position that GL is in. The problem is that he would be far far less effective outside the game than he is inside the game. Lemond will always be the centre of attention due to his Tour record, JV's shelf life outside the mileau of pro cycling is very short indeed.
If one looks at the timeline of the SCA trial and JV's career it's easy to see than at that time he was in a much more vunerable position. 6 years LA was still racing and at the height of his power, JV was just starting out with the 5280 team having morphed into TIAA-CREF. If he had opened up then the chances are that Garmin would not exist at all. The Armstrong PR machine would have treated him in the same way as they treated Landis and marginalised him. In 2004 it would have been much easier a job too.
Pharisees?buckwheat said:Lots of Pharisees around. Thanks for affirming that.
BTW, you read the Kimmage piece or my man BotanyBay?
He's not according to TwitterBotanyBay said:I hope he is reading this. Right now he's sitting-pretty on top of the "clean racing" bandwagon, and I'm quite certain that his position is not very well deserved.
Who the heck ever said life was going to be easy?ultimobici said:Pharisees?
Life must be hard if you live by the creed you promulgate here. Everything is black or white, right or wrong. Moral absolutism is a hard road to follow, I have to take my hat off to you if you actually practice what you expect JV to do.
So JV sings the full aria. He bares his soul and we learn all he knows about doping practices at USPS, names are named etc.buckwheat said:Hello?
Inside the Game? The biggest Champ in the sport is the new Ben Johnson.
What will it take to wake you up?
It's kinda late now with the Fed. Investigation. The time to stop cowering was when he was asked questions straight out. Heaven forbid he answer honestly.ultimobici said:So JV sings the full aria. He bares his soul and we learn all he knows about doping practices at USPS, names are named etc.
In the wake of this he now has to split his time between team duties, dealing with the extra media attention and the numerous law suits that are filed by the riders he names.
He would soon become unemployable.
No I understand what you are driving at.buckwheat said:Who the heck ever said life was going to be easy?
The whole point of cycling is that it's hard if you missed that point.
JC laid down those ideals. You have a problem with it, consult the proper authorities.
Dude, did you see how Cesar Chavez was eulogized in Time Magazine?;
"He understood what all Saints do, you give everything and you get what you get."
He wasn't living in the real world with the UFW though.
My sincere condolences for you for not understanding this stuff. You go out and ride your bike and try to transcend the all of the obstacles. Are you always succesful? Of course not.
Most of you guys have no idea about the mentality of a champion. Champion's are people who are unreasonable in the face of great odds.
You'd think we're on the forum for Actuaries!
We have no way of knowing what if anything he has said in the Federal case. So how can you make an assessment of his actions?buckwheat said:It's kinda late now with the Fed. Investigation. The time to stop cowering was when he was asked questions straight out. Heaven forbid he answer honestly.
Law abiding citizens are also unemployable in La Cosa Nostra.
Really, step back from Pro Cycling, way, way, way, back and get some perspective.
Trees, forests, that kind of stuff.
Remember Tolstoy, greatest novelist ever.JMBeaushrimp said:I think idealists and absolutists, like Buckwheat, provide a crucial component to debat, discussion, and education.
The world may not be totally black and white, but being presented with absolute beliefs forces one to refine arguments, question their own beliefs, and hopefully fine-tune the debate.
I have seen this happen on this thread. There were a lot of 'Buckwheat's insane' comments that morphed into 'oh, I can see where Buckwheat's coming from'.
Anyhow, it's forced a lot of people to evaluate their opinion of JV in terms of his role in cleaning up cycling. That can only help the discussion...
When was the IM and Kimmage interview?ultimobici said:We have no way of knowing what if anything he has said in the Federal case. So how can you make an assessment of his actions?
Nobody has to do anything. Obviously those historic figures risked their lives. To say that JV isn't any less committed when the stakes are not even in the same universe? You're joking!ultimobici said:No I understand what you are driving at.
But I disagree with your assertion that JV has to act like a MLK/Chavez/Gandhi figure for the sake of cycling.
Some people are able and prepared to stand up and confront a problem head on. Others recognise that they are unlikely to win or have a lasting effect so bide their time. That is not to say they are any less committed to changing things, just that they want to make what they do count. The jury's out on JV IMO. When the Armstrong Investigation is concluded, then I think we'll be able to make a judgement.
Did you read the last paragraph of my post?buckwheat said:Nobody has to do anything. Obviously those historic figures risked their lives. To say that JV isn't any less committed when the stakes are not even in the same universe? You're joking!
Tell me what happened in the last 5 years of the marquee event of the sport?
The question is Spine or no.
The answer is becoming completely obvious.
He's aware, and that means he's looking. Good enough for me. He's no "anti-doping" force in professional racing. He's an opportunist. He (correctly) guessed that there were enough clean racing fans out there to justify that as a positioning (see the "P's of marketing") for his team. But he's just as much a part of the problem with his refusal to contribute to accountability for the past. Before you can "move forward", one must show that they actually knew where they once were.buckwheat said:He's not according to Twitter