Vaughter's Spine

[pedaling squares]

I disagree with Vaughters. I believe that Vaughters in the possessive is spelled Vaughters's, not Vaughters'. Unless you are writing about more than one Vaughters. But definitely not Vaughter's, so at least on that point Vaughters and I are in accord.

Vaughters has a spine. A spine that is Vaughters's. Vaughters came here, answered some questions, and suggested that further research on our behalf could reveal the answers we seek. So it's up to us to do the legwork before we say he was wrong.

As for some of the stuff that's been written here about him, it looks like a couple of members are so far out on the branch they have no option other than to defend their point. But it's hard for those of us who maintain anonymity to call someone else spineless when that person shows up, reveals his identity, and addresses the issues that cause some of us concern.

 

[flicker]

fat and fast you are unreasonable to expect Mr. Vaughters to be the next Micheal Moore, it is not his calling.
others here expect that Vaughters here should be like Dylan the new crusader for the new left, and Dylan told those fans hey I am me. others here expect my demi-GOD Lance to admit to things he may or may not have done, the ultimate compliment in fan-boyism.

As always when a person treats anOTHER LIKE A GOD they are bound for dissapointment.

I like the bio-passport it levels the playing field and protects people from dying, it is a start towards more advanced testing like what has caught Floyd and Contador.

certainly isn't a martyr. he is a business man and not the leader of a movement. don't expect anything more. is he genuine or not, who knows? truthfully, if so many are asking that type of question he's failed at least a little bit. he's invited the criticisms by deciding to market his team a certain way and so i don't pity him when he's criticized or his statements come under pressure either. he also has to understand the frustration fans of clean cycling will feel when his comments are interpreted as ambiguous.
__________________
"In great attempts it is even glorious to fail" -V Lombardi
Last edited by lean,mean,&green; Today at 18:40.

 

[buckwheat]

I disagree with Vaughters. I believe that Vaughters in the possessive is spelled Vaughters's, not Vaughters'. Unless you are writing about more than one Vaughters. But definitely not Vaughter's, so at least on that point Vaughters and I are in accord.

Vaughters has a spine. A spine that is Vaughters's. Vaughters came here, answered some questions, and suggested that further research on our behalf could reveal the answers we seek. So it's up to us to do the legwork before we say he was wrong.

As for some of the stuff that's been written here about him, it looks like a couple of members are so far out on the branch they have no option other than to defend their point. But it's hard for those of us who maintain anonymity to call someone else spineless when that person shows up, reveals his identity, and addresses the issues that cause some of us concern.

Did he address those issues or deflect them?

Also, this forum is recreation for most of us. The subject matter is part of Vaughters' job.

I know I have a spine at my job. Most of us have the same potentially severe consequences at our jobs, regarding speaking the truth to power.

 

[buckwheat]

Buckwheat my man... I broke 2 toes carrying a girls bike down the stairs.. bad mood, bad food and lots of bad TV. It's amazing how bad 2 little toes can throb!! I just watched a show on ABC called "What Would You Do?". They put people in a moral pinch. It's shot in NY,NJ,CA.. I will know it's you when the guy goes in for the citizens arrest about whatever subject the introduce..Me and the JV's will be takin' our time to make sure we got the whole picture...this thing that you are outraged about and the www has brought to a boil started before the last great depression. I think the next time you see a couple of dudes puffin' one..you should go all Tiger Schullman on them and hold them until the cops get there... been hangin at 169 Bar,Boiler Room and Mars Bar until my toes feel better..come check out the 2 for 1 prices. I am the guy wearing a cycling tee shirt..

I'm on the Island and on the wagon(for the forseeable future) for better or worse.

No, the key is not to rush into the middle of the situation in a shootout or lesser event.

I could spot somebody some greenies and juice and still compete, not the hot sauce tho.

The weed chills most everyone out so it's ok, but I'd rather drink myself. It's just my currently weak drinking form is holding me back.

Why don't you take a Percoset with your two fers?

Although acetominiphen and alcohol isn't a good mix.

 

[pedaling squares]

Did he address those issues or deflect them?

Also, this forum is recreation for most of us. The subject matter is part of Vaughters' job.

I say he addressed them. I went back and looked at his posts and those that came before them. He addressed most of the topics to that point. He didn't talk about hiring Lim or trying to hire Contador but I think he's expressed himself pretty clearly on those points elsewhere.

I'm not sure why he thinks he's considered a c*ck wad around here. Great term by the way, JV. I've seen him labeled a doping apologist and a poor dresser but most of the chat around here seems to hold him in high regard.

 

[Bilirubin]

This notion of having a "spine" is misjudged. A spine to do what? To get people sent to jail for doping in cycling? I'm sure that's the last thing Vaughters would want to happen, and quite rightly.

This is not a black and white issue where there are goodies and badies. This is about systems and cultures. A "spine" has nothing to do with that.

 

[buckwheat]

You're an idiot.

Thanks!

 

[buckwheat]

If this thread doesn't get closed I'll be taking action.

Huh? What action?

What's usually contemplated by our biggest cycling stars are lawsuits?

 

[buckwheat]

Best post by far

Ok well for the record I edited my posts in page two and three for information I clearly got wrong about him actually testifying at the SCA trial and for that I want to apologise.
I admire JV for coming on here. However in a way I also admire Buckwheat for being honest, because it would be very easy to change his tune and start licking a** because he knew for a fact that JV was on here.


Jonathon, I think this interview was exasperating for me to read two and a half years ago. Here is an excerpt which surmises why.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article4232249.ece

“Jonathan, I don’t understand what your problem is here,” I reply, exasperated. “It’s a valid question. I’m not going to walk away from it.”

“I’m not asking you to walk away from it,” he says. “I can see that you are trying to establish a background and that’s fine but what I’m saying is that I’m just not going to talk about it and that’s it. You can take that however you want.”

I take it badly. He doesn’t flinch. Later that evening, I’m venting my frustrations to his wife, Alisa, at dinner when she suddenly makes sense of him. “The thing you have to remember about Jonathan,” she smiles, “is that he’s the son of an attorney.”



In relation to the IM, I guess it's quotes like the following which were a little disappointing:
"It was a gossipy conversation between two people."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/and...ped-about-us-postals-alleged-doping-practices

Jonathon, i think you know full well that the IM was more that a 'gosspiy conversation'.


And then this finally about AC last year:
"We'd be interested," Vaughters said.
"I like Alberto a lot," Vaughters said. "He wants to win the Tour de France. He'd rather take a winning team over a big paycheck. Our team is capable of propelling him to win the Tour de France."
http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_12919159


Jonathon for me you were interested in AC, when someone like David said the following:

It’s sad to see Vinokourov and Ramussen win races and get taken down the next day.

DW: Why is it sad? They’re cheating. It’s sad that they cheat, but it’s good news when they get caught. What is sad is that the guy who’s wearing the yellow jersey now, Alberto Contador, is definitely cheating.

M: How can you tell he’s cheating?

DW: Michael Rasmussen went up the Gourette-Col d'Aubisque faster than Lance Armstrong ever went up it. Alberto Contador was alongside him the whole way. I’ve been at that race since the early 80s and I know what speeds they go up that mountain. The speeds the leaders go up at today are just illogical.
http://www.macleans.ca/canada/features/article.jsp?content=20070727_150415_8508

showing JV's disappointing tendency towards the dreaded spinelessness.

 

[buckwheat]

He does seem quite a guy though. Phoning up the main man at an 'iconic' organisation. His name on letter heads etc. And then been sacked for having a bad back!

Thanks! It's better than becoming a b!tch in a suit.

 

[D-Queued]

Quoting JV

... Also, D-queued, I also would love to hear your thoughts on my team, but call me so I can use your information, as its apparently better than the information I have or the Catlins have. I'm not hard to get a a hold of, so go ahead, call me up, if you have the spine, that is

I didn't start the thread, so I don't know anything about the spine thingy...

I would be more than happy to speak to you. Thanks for the offer.

And, sorry it took so long to find your post. Though I have been a major contributor elsewhere, I am still finding my way around here. In fact, all the new replies to this thread kind of overwhelmed me - as this is a lot to have to read and I am only part way through.

Until now, I didn't even know you read or posted here. You have my respect for doing so.

Dave.

 

[hfer07]

I'm just going to express this: JV is a smart guy who happened to witness one of the darkest chapters in cycling history-he might have disagreed with the methods used back them, but doesn't mean he's unaware of what is being done nowadays to get the top spots in a GT-he did have a taste of what doping can make an athlete reach for and deeply knows what is necessary to get victories...regarless of how turbulent the past was,I am inclined to say he's favoring a clean sport, but he's conscious that is simply "impossible" to maintain a clean record & get untainted wins while the rest of the peloton is getting the "extra help"-- IOW the game is only a matter of having the means/sources to prevent his riders from testing positive-that's all...

 

[D-Queued]

Hey Dave - glad you're visiting the cesspool while the more high-browed cesspool is on vacation!

Thanks Jimmypop,

And WHOA is this ever the wild west.

Thanks, though, to Susan. By the time I got to reading the thread you had done a nice job of cutting it down to readable size.

Doing my best to try and keep up.

Dave.

 

[hrotha]

I disagree with Vaughters. I believe that Vaughters in the possessive is spelled Vaughters's, not Vaughters'. Unless you are writing about more than one Vaughters. But definitely not Vaughter's, so at least on that point Vaughters and I are in accord.

I'm extremely insecure about that rule so I check it about once every two months. The last time was a couple of days ago. Anyway, apparently both Vaughters' and Vaughters's are correct.

So there.

Fat chance JV gets back to this thread now, I guess. He'd be pretty overwhelmed with a whole lot of... I was going to say "nothing" but I'm not too sure what that was, honestly.

 

[andy1234]

I don't believe he's trustworthy because he's letting considerations other than the answer to the question affect his answer.

Genuinely sorry but that all went into my thinking/writing out loud answer.

You seem to be missing a big point here.
JV and other DSs are managers of cycling teams, they are not anti doping officials. A DS has to run a professional racing team, an anti doping official has to oversee anti doping.

At which point did he apply for the job description that you are giving him?

You seem to be obsessed with rightousness and fairness and doing the right thing as if those qualities exist in a binary on or off manner. They don't

What might be right for you could be wrong for everyone else in the room. You may have been prepared to lose your job and the livelyhood of your family for your principles? I for one would rather put the people around me first, by compromising SOME of my beliefs, than damage their lives with MY personal idea of fairness.

JV has the lives and welfare of a whole organisation at stake each and every time he opens his mouth. People with mortgages to pay and familys to feed.
You will have to forgive him if he isn't prepared to destroy this just to appeal to your Rainman like view of the world.

 

[ultimobici]

You seem to be missing a big point here.
JV and other DSs are managers of cycling teams, they are not anti doping officials. A DS has to run a professional racing team, an anti doping official has to oversee anti doping.

At which point did he apply for the job description that you are giving him?

You seem to be obsessed with rightousness and fairness and doing the right thing as if those qualities exist in a binary on or off manner. They don't

What might be right for you could be wrong for everyone else in the room. You may have been prepared to lose your job and the livelyhood of your family for your principles? I for one would rather put the people around me first, by compromising SOME of my beliefs, than damage their lives with MY personal idea of fairness.

JV has the lives and welfare of a whole organisation at stake each and every time he opens his mouth. People with mortgages to pay and familys to feed.
You will have to forgive him if he isn't prepared to destroy this just to appeal to your Rainman like view of the world.

Absolutely!

 

[buckwheat]

so it seems the off-season is upon us and we've got time to ponder JV's motives and he's got time to linger a little longer in the CN forum.



i like that you're unafraid of vaughters and didn't immediately retreat like a frightened turtle but i think you're being a little unreasonable. there's a fine line between having strong convictions and becoming quixotic and you may have crossed it ten pages ago.

i hate to use buzz words/phrases but everyone makes compromises and picks their battles. you, me, vaughters, everybody. i think you've painted yourself into a corner and think you're afraid it's admitting defeat to soften your stance a little. the truth is, you think that the time is right and that the battle is now worth fighting because it can be won. there's NOTHING wrong with holding that opinion and you don't need to apologize for it. maybe it's time for guys like JV to ruffle a few feathers? i'm not so sure myself, but a lot of people probably agree with you and i can understand that too.

i view JV as a team director and owner first. his first priority is to run a profitable and successful business, not to clean up the mess countless others have created. based upon whether his model is successful others might decide to follow in his footsteps. he isn't a crusader and certainly isn't a martyr. he is a business man and not the leader of a movement. don't expect anything more. is he genuine or not, who knows? truthfully, if so many are asking that type of question he's failed at least a little bit. he's invited the criticisms by deciding to market his team a certain way and so i don't pity him when he's criticized or his statements come under pressure either. he also has to understand the frustration fans of clean cycling will feel when his comments are interpreted as ambiguous.

You seem to be missing a big point here.
JV and other DSs are managers of cycling teams, they are not anti doping officials. A DS has to run a professional racing team, an anti doping official has to oversee anti doping.

At which point did he apply for the job description that you are giving him?

You seem to be obsessed with rightousness and fairness and doing the right thing as if those qualities exist in a binary on or off manner. They don't

What might be right for you could be wrong for everyone else in the room. You may have been prepared to lose your job and the livelyhood of your family for your principles? I for one would rather put the people around me first, by compromising SOME of my beliefs, than damage their lives with MY personal idea of fairness. JV has the lives and welfare of a whole organisation at stake each and every time he opens his mouth. People with mortgages to pay and familys to feed.
You will have to forgive him if he isn't prepared to destroy this just to appeal to your Rainman like view of the world.

So you think doping is wrong, but you're not willing to do much to get rid of it?

Do you think Lean Green and Mean's response is a little more well balanced than your's?

Also, the name calling only serves to illustrate that you're willing to compromise principles when you come up against a stronger force that can possibly hurt you.

I don't mind insults, but there those on here with more delicate sensibilites that get offended for whatever reason.

I've learned that the best reaction is to hit back (figuratively or literally) so hard the other guy doesn't realize at first, wtf hit him.

I actually believe that is LA's strategy (as well as the powers of cycling) and everyone he's faced up till now has blinked.

I'm prepared for the mud wrestling match. If someone wants to have a go, I don't care who it is.

Is there a cost to that? Is there a cost to backing down? Everyone chooses the way they want to live.

I get mocked for quoting the following. Who gives a $hit?

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"
Irish dramatist & socialist (1856 - 1950)

TheHog called me an idiot for posting that.

You ever see the end of Pulp Fiction? Jules is going to walk the earth like Caine in Kung Fu. Vincent Vega says Jules will be a bum and that Marcellus Wallace will laugh his a$s off about the reason. Jules says, go ahead and tell Marcellus, I don't care what he does.

Do you get it?

Entrenched powers get overthrown by unreasonable people. Most unreasonable people fail in what they're trying to do.

Fcuk it!

 

[ultimobici]

So you think doping is wrong, but you're not willing to do much to get rid of it?

Do you think Lean Green and Mean's response is a little more well balanced than your's?

Also, the name calling only serves to illustrate that you're willing to compromise principles when you come up against a stronger force that can possibly hurt you.

I don't mind insults, but there those on here with more delicate sensibilites that get offended for whatever reason.

I've learned that the best reaction is to hit back (figuratively or literally) so hard the other guy doesn't realize at first, wtf hit him.

I actually believe that is LA's strategy (as well as the powers of cycling) and everyone he's faced up till now has blinked.

I'm prepared for the mud wrestling match. If someone wants to have a go, I don't care who it is.

Is there a cost to that? Is there a cost to backing down? Everyone chooses the way they want to live.

I get mocked for quoting the following. Who gives a $hit?

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"
Irish dramatist & socialist (1856 - 1950)

TheHog called me an idiot for posting that.

You ever see the end of Pulp Fiction? Jules is going to walk the earth like Caine in Kung Fu. Vincent Vega says Jules will be a bum and that Marcellus Wallace will laugh his a$s off about the reason. Jules says, go ahead and tell Marcellus, I don't care what he does.

Do you get it?

Entrenched powers get overthrown by unreasonable people. Most unreasonable people fail in what they're trying to do.

Fcuk it!

I can't see any name-calling in that post at all.

You have railed against JV's reluctance to stand up to the UCI/LA/Dopers in general without considering the points raised in both of the posts you quote. It's all very well standing up and speaking out, when your immediate family are affected it's one thing but JV has a responsibility to every member of the Garmin team. That's not just the riders but also the soigneurs, mechanics, caterers and all the other often invisible staff that allow it to function. They are not necessarily on a moral crusade but just doing their job so that their families can live.

By running his team in an ethical manner he is making it possible for riders to race in a similarly ethical way rather than putting a score or more people out of a job.

 

[andy1234]

So you think doping is wrong, but you're not willing to do much to get rid of it?

Do you think Lean Green and Mean's response is a little more well balanced than your's?

Also, the name calling only serves to illustrate that you're willing to compromise principles when you come up against a stronger force that can possibly hurt you.

I don't mind insults, but there those on here with more delicate sensibilites that get offended for whatever reason.

I've learned that the best reaction is to hit back (figuratively or literally) so hard the other guy doesn't realize at first, wtf hit him.

I actually believe that is LA's strategy (as well as the powers of cycling) and everyone he's faced up till now has blinked.

I'm prepared for the mud wrestling match. If someone wants to have a go, I don't care who it is.

Is there a cost to that? Is there a cost to backing down? Everyone chooses the way they want to live.

I get mocked for quoting the following. Who gives a $hit?

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"
Irish dramatist & socialist (1856 - 1950)

TheHog called me an idiot for posting that.

You ever see the end of Pulp Fiction? Jules is going to walk the earth like Caine in Kung Fu. Vincent Vega says Jules will be a bum and that Marcellus Wallace will laugh his a$s off about the reason. Jules says, go ahead and tell Marcellus, I don't care what he does.

Do you get it?

Entrenched powers get overthrown by unreasonable people. Most unreasonable people fail in what they're trying to do.

Fcuk it!

Firstly, Im not insulting you, Im just stating how you are coming across.
(alright Rainman is a bit insulting)

I think doping is wrong, but the family I love and support have no view on it, so its my fight. If my fight against doping compromises their welfare then that is a selfish act, not the actions of a hero.

As a younger man, I had no such responsibilities, so my view would have been closer to your current view.

I personally don't mind getting hurt for what I believe in, but I do mind the people I love getting hurt for it. If someone gave me no option but to protect those people though, I would not rest until that threat was eliminated.


JV is a man with a very large "family" and he does well to not compromise it.

Entrenched powers do get overthrown by unreasonable people. That doesnt make the unreasonable people right. 9/11 anyone?

Choose your fight, put your obvious passion and energy into it, but understand that what you see as strength and "spine" could well be just the opposite.

 

[buckwheat]

Firstly, Im not insulting you, Im just stating how you are coming across.
(alright Rainman is a bit insulting)

I think doping is wrong, but the family a love and support have no view on it, so its my fight. If my fight against doping compromises their welfare then that is a selfish act, not the actions of a hero.

As a younger man, I had no such responsibilities, so my view would have been closer to your current view.

I personally don't mind getting hurt for what I believe in, but I do mind the people I love getting hurt for it. If someone gave me no option but to protect those people though, I would not rest until that threat was eliminated.


JV is a man with a very large "family" and he does well to not compromise it.

Entrenched powers do get overthrown by unreasonable people. That doesnt make the unreasonable people right. 9/11 anyone?

Choose your fight, put your obvious passion and energy into it, but understand that what you see as strength and "spine" could well be just the opposite.

Lance Armstrong doesn't have a family? Greg LeMond?

I'll tell you what really offends me? Greg LeMond, a complete bada$s on the bike, and in life, gets ripped by the peanut gallery for being unhinged, and all the people who say they want a change, timidly, and fecklessly stand by and let it happen.

GBS is FAMOUS and he lays out a blueprint for what it takes to change things.

I get mocked on here for bringing up a famous letter written by another persecuted guy who was trying to change things, because it's supposedly not analogous.

"You're kidding with that comparison" My response, "no I'm not kidding."

And most here DO acknowledge some very severe consequences for challenging the powers in something as inconsequential as cycling.

So, if you want to drink out of the same water fountain, and a cop is going to sic a dog on you, or you want to work for Ford Motor back in the '30's and some goon wants to club you with a baseball bat, what do you do?

Why of course! You back down because it can hurt your family!

Got it!

This is the difference between people who change things, and people who don't.

Right to the whole frigging point of the thread. JV's spine or lack thereof.

 

[buckwheat]

I can't see any name-calling in that post at all.

You have railed against JV's reluctance to stand up to the UCI/LA/Dopers in general without considering the points raised in both of the posts you quote. It's all very well standing up and speaking out, when your immediate family are affected it's one thing but JV has a responsibility to every member of the Garmin team. That's not just the riders but also the soigneurs, mechanics, caterers and all the other often invisible staff that allow it to function. They are not necessarily on a moral crusade but just doing their job so that their families can live.

By running his team in an ethical manner he is making it possible for riders to race in a similarly ethical way rather than putting a score or more people out of a job.

Calling someone's view a "Rainman" view isn't insulting?

As I've said, I couldn't care less, but that doesn't change the fact it's insulting.

I'll address each of your fallacious points when you concede this.

 

[ultimobici]

Calling someone's view a "Rainman" view isn't insulting?

As I've said, I couldn't care less, but that doesn't change the fact it's insulting.

I'll address each of your fallacious points when you concede this.

Not really, although idealistically simplistic would have been better.

The rest of my post cannot be fallacious as it is my opinion.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Buckwheat, I am now warning you publicly.

Turn it down a notch. Calm down. Stop taking everything so personally and so intensely.

Susan

 

[Bilirubin]

Buckwheat, you have 58 posts in this thread. The next highest is 15.

Are you on a vendetta against Jonathon Vaughters? Do you know him? Why are you so desperate to get everyone to hate him?

 

[buckwheat]

Firstly, Im not insulting you, Im just stating how you are coming across.
(alright Rainman is a bit insulting)

Not really, although idealistically simplistic would have been better.

The rest of my post cannot be fallacious as it is my opinion.

There's really no point in continuing with you because you cannot admit you're wrong and then replace one insult with another.

It is quite humorous that you seem to think the issues facing JV are somehow unique and aren't things most people confront at one point or another in their lives.

That is a great thing about life. No matter what your station is, you get the chance to rise to the occasion or not.

Here's something from a recent classic that you probably read in school.

Real courage is when you know you're licked before you begin, but you begin anyway and see it through no matter what.

Harper Lee


Courage is a very rare commodity. Reading this thread gives an indication why that's so.