Vaughter's Spine

[Anonymous]

Yeah, no problem.

The title of the thread is Vaughters' spine.

What does that imply?

If we were just having an academic discussion, would JV come out on the correct side of the doping issue? I believe he would.

So the question becomes, why do some not believe that JV is in fact coming out on the right side of the doping issue?

Why would some question his intestinal fortitude on this issue? They believe he's backed down on speaking the truth to power?

What is he afraid of?

What are the consequences of speaking freely about an issue that constitutes sporting fraud?

Who are the powers?

How powerful are they?

Why aren't the reigning powers truthful or are they being truthful?

Does anyone know what will happen if there is total transparency, or what happens if the current trends whatever they are continue?

What does it mean to say that someone has a spine?

What is the classification of this kind of question? By that I mean, what realm does the implied question of the thread fall into, sports, culture, morality, or some area which has been deemed off limits by the guardians of these threads?

Does having a spine regarding the issue we are talking about here, have anything to do with a ideally pure sporting competition of riding a bike?

Getting back to your question. I understand why Vaughters may not be trustworthy in the real world.

I believe it comes down to the answer to the question of what it means to have a spine.



I have a good sense of humor but it does really bother me for posts like this to be allowed and other more relevant posts to be disallowed.

I assure you I can give and take with anyone on here, but passive aggressive behavior disturbs me a great deal.

I'd be more than happy with a free for all, free flowing discussion, but the powers that be have dictated certain parameters which I believe seriously hinder getting to the root of things.

Just because JV is taking a different approach to effect change than you might doesn't mean he's not effective. Some people don't have to pound their fist on a desk to get things done.

JV could have gone down the road as all other DS's have for the last 20 years. But he chose a path that has had an effect on the psychology of the sport and it's participants from the inside.

That's impressive even if you don't see it and I'd suggest to you that it is certainly evidence of a spine.

 

[ferryman]

Just because JV is taking a different approach to effect change than you might doesn't mean he's not effective. Some people don't have to pound their fist on a desk to get things done.

JV could have gone down the road as all other DS's have for the last 20 years. But he chose a path that has had an effect on the psychology of the sport and it's participants from the inside.

That's impressive even if you don't see it and I'd suggest to you that it is certainly evidence of a spine.

+1 Idon't know JV and never will. I don't know what he experienced as a pro and never will. I DO however choose to believe what he his telling us now with his team and doping. Mug me if I am wrong.

 

[washedup]

First time pop-in to the thread. This is the best thread I've read in months! Keep it up. I too think JV sits on the fence too much. He's talking, but is he really saying anything . . . no!

This is exactly the point of my original post.

 

[Anonymous]

Busy thinking ways to antaganize Johann. Note to myself do I have enough frequent flyer miles added up for a round trip ticket to Zambia or will it only be one way......

To be fair JB is very easily antagonized. He got himself right in a pickle just because people disagreed with his objection to getting rid of race radios. Was having a right old twitter cry that night, lance had to calm him down.

 

[python]

bucky, i asked a simple question - why do you believe jv is not trustworthy ?

in response, you provided a long-winded rant with no answer but 9 (well, i just counted 10) questions to one very simple question of mine.

to me, it means you're grand-standing at best. or more likely bs-ing whilst looking in the mirror.

i have little time for such confused discussants and will take a note for the future.

 

[buckwheat]

Just because JV is taking a different approach to effect change than you might doesn't mean he's not effective. Some people don't have to pound their fist on a desk to get things done.

JV could have gone down the road as all other DS's have for the last 20 years. But he chose a path that has had an effect on the psychology of the sport and it's participants from the inside.

That's impressive even if you don't see it and I'd suggest to you that it is certainly evidence of a spine.

Fair enough.

I believe that if he answered real world questions in the same way as he'd answer academic questions, he'd have a spine.

I'm forbidden to discuss the game I think he's involved in although it's inherent in JV's responses.

 

[buckwheat]

bucky, i asked a simple question - why do you believe jv is not trustworthy ?

in response, you provided a long-winded rant with no answer but 9 (well, i just counted 10) questions to one very simple question of mine.

to me, it means you're grand-standing at best. or more likely bs-ing whilst looking in the mirror.

i have little time for such confused discussants and will take a note for the future.

I don't believe he's trustworthy because he's letting considerations other than the answer to the question affect his answer.

Genuinely sorry but that all went into my thinking/writing out loud answer.

 

[131313]

EDIT: I am now re-opening this thread. The topic is Jonathan Vaughters and his anti-doping stance. STICK TO THIS TOPIC.

Anyone going off-topic will be sanctioned.
Susan

Sorry I was making fun of JV's sideburns. I really did feel it was relevant, though.

Anyway Buckwheat, I realize it would satisfy your (and many others') sensibilities for JV to be as antagonistic as LeMond regarding the doping issue. I applaud the stance that LeMond has taken, I really do. And I'll freely admit that his actions have certainly in part created an environment where a guy like Vaughters can operate a team.

That said, trying to ONLY impact the situation from the outside in is only going to do so much. There are instances where JV has been much too conciliatory for my tastes. He's also provided a place where clean guys like Danny Pate and Svein Tuft have gotten a ride, and I think he deserves a lot of credit for doing what no one else has done in that regard.

Also note that LeMond is one of Slipstream's sponsors. I think that shows that both of those guys are willing to support each other. You should consider that as well.

p.s. his sideburns are still stupid.

 

[buckwheat]

what would you do if you were in his shoes, yell from the roof tops something that isn't going to be heard except by the sensation-starved and hurt you, or quietly tell novitzky everything and wait for the chips to fall where they may ?

jv sent plenty of signals where his mind and heart belong regarding texas...

I'd be as outspoken as Texas is, except I'd be honest.

Texas, evil, spine. JV, honest, very questionable spine. When can you trust him to stand up? Now that others have done the heavy lifting?

 

[131313]

I'd be as outspoken as Texas is, except I'd be honest.

Texas, evil, spine. JV, honest, very questionable spine. When can you trust him to stand up? Now that others have done the heavy lifting?

Sorry, I just don't think that's a fair comment, at all. If you knew anything about the origins of the 5280 Cycling team, you'd understand the definition of "heavy lifting". He sacrificed just as much as LeMond in basically quitting the sport, and he invested a hell of a lot more effort, IMO. It truly was a grass roots effort to form the team that is now Slipstream.

 

[python]

p.s. his sideburns are still stupid.

you're are a respected poster - by me at least - but this statement of yours is stupid considering the thread subject and your previous content-full posts.

unless, of course, you're a chick trying to date the guy and not happy with his taste.

i must digress here .

 

[flicker]

To be fair JB is very easily antagonized. He got himself right in a pickle just because people disagreed with his objection to getting rid of race radios. Was having a right old twitter cry that night, lance had to calm him down.

It has got to be tough being Johann right now.

Like I said Vaughters approaches things in an analytical way, touchy subject, could be grappled with but he handles things adroitly as cycling matters need issue. Many here do not realize that cycling is about image and entertainment.It is SUPER important to treat it that way to keep up public interests.

 

[washedup]

Many here do not realize that cycling is about image and entertainment.It is SUPER important to treat it that way to keep up public interests.

Isn't that what got us into this mess in the first place?

 

[flicker]

Isn't that what got us into this mess in the first place?

I am in California and what I know about the European sport is from speaking to friends and media. Cycling here is becoming more popular than ever even with the doping controversies.

No races here match Europe spectator interest wise. Since I am not a pro I don't know how much it would be worthwhile to race pro here. The women cyclists here impress me more then the men pros.

 

[buckwheat]

Sorry, I just don't think that's a fair comment, at all. If you knew anything about the origins of the 5280 Cycling team, you'd understand the definition of "heavy lifting". He sacrificed just as much as LeMond in basically quitting the sport, and he invested a hell of a lot more effort, IMO. It truly was a grass roots effort to form the team that is now Slipstream.

Laudable, but I think Pharmstrong was on to something when he derisively noted the participatory nature of Slipstream as opposed to a team that was going to go for wins.

At that point I believe it was imperative for JV to 'say it to Armstrong's face' and by that I mean to blow the lid off what made cycling teams successful.

What the heck is the point of competing if you're going to be non confrontational?

The maxim about boxing, that you have to take the belt from the champion, is true in every sport.

JV wanted to have it both ways, he wanted to compete, but he wanted to just ride honorably in a corrupt sport without exposing the corruption.

For the life of me, I can't understand that. It seemed like he was doing everything to avoid confrontation.

 

[131313]

you're are a respected poster - by me at least - but this statement of yours is stupid considering the thread subject and your previous content-full posts.

unless, of course, you're a chick trying to date the guy and not happy with his taste.

i must digress here .

Actually, I was just kidding....I just didn't understand why my post was deleted because of that!

Seriously though, I think people have unrealistic expectations expecting someone who's working in the game of cycling to avoid all of its politics. There is a lot of politics in any organized sport. I think you need guys like LeMond to just call BS on the whole thing, and it's even better when they've been guys with a lot of success.

You also need guys who are willing to roll up their sleeves and actually do some work. And some of what is involves is playing the political game to an extent.

The tipping point of course can come when someone becomes more beholden to "the game" than to the original purpose. As Slipstream becomes bigger and more successful, there's no question that JV is getting closer to that tipping point. I have hope he'll keep it in the right direction. Time will tell.

 

[buckwheat]

Sorry I was making fun of JV's sideburns. I really did feel it was relevant, though.

Anyway Buckwheat, I realize it would satisfy your (and many others') sensibilities for JV to be as antagonistic as LeMond regarding the doping issue. I applaud the stance that LeMond has taken, I really do. And I'll freely admit that his actions have certainly in part created an environment where a guy like Vaughters can operate a team.

That said, trying to ONLY impact the situation from the outside in is only going to do so much. There are instances where JV has been much too conciliatory for my tastes. He's also provided a place where clean guys like Danny Pate and Svein Tuft have gotten a ride, and I think he deserves a lot of credit for doing what no one else has done in that regard.

Also note that LeMond is one of Slipstream's sponsors. I think that shows that both of those guys are willing to support each other. You should consider that as well.

p.s. his sideburns are still stupid.

In fairness, it does take a lot of "spine" to stand up to the powers and it's easy to get caught off guard if you're a nice guy coming up against someone who's always relentlessly fighting.

I think LeMond is a bada$s and even he regretted initially backing down in 2001.

Not easy to fight the power but I don't think there's a good alternative. If other events hadn't intervened, JV would have inevitably hit another roadblock with doping.

We don't even know if the current events are going to slow down the fraud.

 

[buckwheat]

Actually, I was just kidding....I just didn't understand why my post was deleted because of that!

Seriously though, I think people have unrealistic expectations expecting someone who's working in the game of cycling to avoid all of its politics. There is a lot of politics in any organized sport. I think you need guys like LeMond to just call BS on the whole thing, and it's even better when they've been guys with a lot of success.

You also need guys who are willing to roll up their sleeves and actually do some work. And some of what is involves is playing the political game to an extent.

The tipping point of course can come when someone becomes more beholden to "the game" than to the original purpose. As Slipstream becomes bigger and more successful, there's no question that JV is getting closer to that tipping point. I have hope he'll keep it in the right direction. Time will tell.

The word I highlighted was the whole POINT of my previous posts which saw me ridiculed and misunderstood.

You can never, never, never, let those considerations affect issues concerning justice and morality.

I think most rational people on here subscribe to the fact that doping is wrong and that participants should follow all the rules.

For some reason the powers that be here are blind to the pervasive effect of the word I've highlighted.

 

[fatandfast]

Laudable, but I think Pharmstrong was on to something when he derisively noted the participatory nature of Slipstream as opposed to a team that was going to go for wins.

At that point I believe it was imperative for JV to 'say it to Armstrong's face' and by that I mean to blow the lid off what made cycling teams successful.

What the heck is the point of competing if you're going to be non confrontational?

The maxim about boxing, that you have to take the belt from the champion, is true in every sport.

JV wanted to have it both ways, he wanted to compete, but he wanted to just ride honorably in a corrupt sport without exposing the corruption.

For the life of me, I can't understand that. It seemed like he was doing everything to avoid confrontation.

Couple of semi serious questions:
do you think Vaughter's can change more about what is wrong with cycling while still inside? Should he "retire" and take up the cause? Would he be called in front of congress?

If the pro cycling world has seen the death penalty that high profile cases bring,where the sponsor says screw it and fulls the funding .don't you think JV approach of stroking the golden goose rather than killing it is more productive?

Or should he go on a moral crusade at any cost?

the number of substances and procedures that pro endurance athlete partake in are anything other than black and white. Confrontation is great if the fight looks like it has an end or you know your enemy. Just get rid of that guy and doping will be cured. Corruption? and any statement that JV makes will turn the tides? I feel like I am at a BBQ at the Bush ranch. In pro cycling if you "blow the lid off " of something or somebody you normally crash really hard soon there after. Lots of things you typed have played out even at the lowest human level....if you are filled with killer instinct..just so much of it that you are chanting"eye of the tiger,eye of the tiger"..and guys say hey relax while I pee and you attack and are even lucky enough to get a win because of your every chance is one that should be taken attitude it's a one time deal. JV wuss posture in your opinion will make him that much more effective.

Ali took the belt from a few champions but not by punching..by getting into the head of the opponent. The guy would be so ****ed off about some distraction(poem,rope-i-dope,smiling at them,showboat shuffle) that half the battle was lost from inside the head of the guy he was fighting. I am glad for the sake of cycling that conflicts between Pharmstrong and Vaughters were handled privately

 

[lean mean &green]

battles big enough to matter, small enough to win -Kozol

so it seems the off-season is upon us and we've got time to ponder JV's motives and he's got time to linger a little longer in the CN forum.

The word I highlighted was the whole POINT of my previous posts which saw me ridiculed and misunderstood.

You can never, never, never, let those considerations affect issues concerning justice and morality.

I think most rational people on here subscribe to the fact that doping is wrong and that participants should follow all the rules.

For some reason the powers that be here are blind to the pervasive effect of the word I've highlighted.

i like that you're unafraid of vaughters and didn't immediately retreat like a frightened turtle but i think you're being a little unreasonable. there's a fine line between having strong convictions and becoming quixotic and you may have crossed it ten pages ago.

i hate to use buzz words/phrases but everyone makes compromises and picks their battles. you, me, vaughters, everybody. i think you've painted yourself into a corner and think you're afraid it's admitting defeat to soften your stance a little. the truth is, you think that the time is right and that the battle is now worth fighting because it can be won. there's NOTHING wrong with holding that opinion and you don't need to apologize for it. maybe it's time for guys like JV to ruffle a few feathers? i'm not so sure myself, but a lot of people probably agree with you and i can understand that too.

i view JV as a team director and owner first. his first priority is to run a profitable and successful business, not to clean up the mess countless others have created. based upon whether his model is successful others might decide to follow in his footsteps. he isn't a crusader and certainly isn't a martyr. he is a business man and not the leader of a movement. don't expect anything more. is he genuine or not, who knows? truthfully, if so many are asking that type of question he's failed at least a little bit. he's invited the criticisms by deciding to market his team a certain way and so i don't pity him when he's criticized or his statements come under pressure either. he also has to understand the frustration fans of clean cycling will feel when his comments are interpreted as ambiguous.

 

[buckwheat]

good semi serious questions

Couple of semi serious questions:
do you think Vaughter's can change more about what is wrong with cycling while still inside?

I think he has to just fire away without considering the other stuff. What happens, happens.

Should he "retire" and take up the cause? Would he be called in front of congress?

No, but I think that it's hard to say what would happen if he were just speaking truthfully without regard to "the forbidden P word" considerations. No one knows. I think you have to take that chance and go all the way.

If the pro cycling world has seen the death penalty that high profile cases bring?

At this point, a sponsor like Garmin doesn't know what they are getting into with cycling?

,where the sponsor says screw it and fulls the funding .don't you think JV approach of stroking the golden goose rather than killing it is more productive?

Cycling is a big part of your adult life for a reason, and if JV himself is that passionate about the sport and the spectacle he should be able to sell that to sponsors with caveats that stuff may come up.

Or should he go on a moral crusade at any cost?

IMHO when you start compromising on your core values and beliefs in any way, you're in big trouble. That being said, we're all human and make mistakes, but I think your representations of yourself must hold to high ideals despite the difficulty of attaining them.

the number of substances and procedures that pro endurance athlete partake in are anything other than black and white.

I think what comprises a "doper's mentality" is very clear cut. If you're drinking a couple cups of coffee, no problem. Needles, prescribed pills, creams, gels and patches. No.

Confrontation is great if the fight looks like it has an end or you know your enemy. Just get rid of that guy and doping will be cured..

We're really getting into extremely philosophical territory here. I don't mind myself but others here have a limited tolerance of that stuff. Einstein and others believed that free will doesn't exist, BUT, you have to live your life as if you have it.

One has to take on these challenges as if they mean something. That's the nature of life.

Corruption? and any statement that JV makes will turn the tides? I feel like I am at a BBQ at the Bush ranch...

I had a great answer for this but I can't include it or I may get sanctioned due to the P word.

In pro cycling if you "blow the lid off " of something or somebody you normally crash really hard soon there after.

And yet Armstrong and others ruled with an iron fist and didn't suffer anything. It was difficult for the first Americans in Europe, but they made it.

Lots of things you typed have played out even at the lowest human level....if you are filled with killer instinct..just so much of it that you are chanting"eye of the tiger,eye of the tiger"..and guys say hey relax while I pee and you attack and are even lucky enough to get a win because of your every chance is one that should be taken attitude it's a one time deal. JV wuss posture in your opinion will make him that much more effective. .

No, no, no. I'm not saying you have to be stupid, but if the sport is so entirely drug drenched as it sounds from what you've written, maybe it is better to just get in there and wreck it. If you've noticed certain people have enforced their will on the peloton.

Ali took the belt from a few champions but not by punching..by getting into the head of the opponent. The guy would be so ****ed off about some distraction(poem,rope-i-dope,smiling at them,showboat shuffle) that half the battle was lost from inside the head of the guy he was fighting. I am glad for the sake of cycling that conflicts between Pharmstrong and Vaughters were handled privately

Well, different strokes. I really believe Vaughters is very lucky that LA overplayed his hand with his comeback. Otherwise, we'd just be pausing a bit for the free for all of gene doping. You take down a huge guy, and others are going to think twice about stepping over the line and being exposed as frauds.

You get a lot of people "saying it to their faces" I think that's the biggest hope to change things.

 

[buckwheat]

so it seems the off-season is upon us and we've got time to ponder JV's motives and he's got time to linger a little longer in the CN forum.



i like that you're unafraid of vaughters and didn't immediately retreat like a frightened turtle but i think you're being a little unreasonable.:

It's a very well considered response. The only person who should be afraid is Vaughters. After all, he's the one selling something.

there's a fine line between having strong convictions and becoming quixotic and you may have crossed it ten pages ago. .:

A good joke and a consideration I understand and a consequence I accept. I happen to have the time and am here for the sparring so....

i hate to use buzz words/phrases but everyone makes compromises and picks their battles. you, me, vaughters, everybody.

I think you're right and I think one has to be aware of whether those compromises are worth making. I believe, just by virtue of this thread existing, JV's was a poor compromise, especially in an arena where most want to be believed to be physically and mentally tough rather than effeminate.

i think you've painted yourself into a corner and think you're afraid it's admitting defeat to soften your stance a little. .

Soften my stance on standing up to bullies. No, because if you don't it just emboldens them.. Even other bulwarks of society(which I can't mention) have been in thrall to the particular bullies who are being investigated now.

The only thing I'm afraid of is that someone will come too close to my price and I'll buckle. One has to guard against that.

the truth is, you think that the time is right and that the battle is now worth fighting because it can be won.:

I appreciate your post, but you have no basis for this statement as you don't know when I came to these beliefs. I was unsettled back in 2001 and became certain in 2003.

there's NOTHING wrong with holding that opinion and you don't need to apologize for it. maybe it's time for guys like JV to ruffle a few feathers? i'm not so sure myself, but a lot of people probably agree with you and i can understand that too.

i view JV as a team director and owner first. his first priority is to run a profitable and successful business, not to clean up the mess countless others have created. based upon whether his model is successful others might decide to follow in his footsteps. he isn't a crusader and certainly isn't a martyr. he is a business man and not the leader of a movement. don't expect anything more. is he genuine or not, who knows? truthfully, if so many are asking that type of question he's failed at least a little bit. he's invited the criticisms by deciding to market his team a certain way and so i don't pity him when he's criticized or his statements come under pressure either. he also has to understand the frustration fans of clean cycling will feel when his comments are interpreted as ambiguous.

I understand what you say and agree to a large degree.

I think he's doing his riders a disservice as the LA narrative (forget the illness) just being a hard guy, is a much more compelling narrative than the diffident triangulator.

 

[Mambo95]

Dear JV1973,

First up it's great that you contribute to internet forums, but I would question you choice of forums. This forum is the wild west of cycling doping forums. There's some informed comment, but there's also a lot of tin-foil hat stuff. You really can't win.

You will always be up against what I call 'Doping Fans' - people who are more interested in the doping than the racing. People who are scared of the sport cleaning up, because they will lose their cynical superiority. There's also the problem that many of them are obsessed with Armstrong. They don't care about other dopers, just him - maybe because he was better at it. I understand why you wouldn't want to spill all the beans

I, for one, believe in you and your team. You weren't a pioneer - the French teams got there first - but I applaud you for pushing cleanliness as a virtue. I believe this has caught on with many other teams.

I also believe that you are right about the bio passport. Eventually there will come a time that the doping that can be done is ineffectual. Maybe we are almost already there. It's great to see avowed non-dopers like Pinotti fianlly getting good results.

Good luck for the next season (although I still want Cav to destroy Tyler). It's a shame some of these self-proclaimed 'anti-doping crusaders' can't see the difference you making.

I thank you.

PS If you want a decent, balanced conversation, try the Bikeradar forum.

Mambo95

 

[Ferminal]

Thanks for posting JV.

I disagree that the biopassport is working, it has two fatal flaws.

1) It is sanction via discretion. It's not as simple as a lab leaking info about an AAF We know given its history that discretion at the UCI is a corrupt, unethical process. Solution? The biopassport commitee should distanced from the UCI, overseen by WADA perhaps, but discretion from anyone is still undesirable.

2) It's proved to be largely unacceptable as a means of bringing about a sanction, the courts have rejected the biopassport. There's little future for the passport as an anti-doping tool unless it has a punishment mechanism. I'm not sure how this improves, I guess it's up to the scientists and lawyers to develop a system which is enforceable.

Even if we were to clear out the dead wood at the administrative level of the sport, we would not be in a much better position. As much as McQuaid's position is today unteneble, a new face and fresh outlook isn't the silver bullet. Although small gains do matter. Anti-doping is fought in the labs, how quickly can we improve the science to bring about an enforceable test.

At the moment, the good guys are on the losing side of the battle. I see three major breakthroughs which are needed to turn the situation against the doping culture.

a) The new HGH markers test to get up and running, be effective in detection and legally enforceable.

b) A method of detecting micro-doses of EPO - be that simply a better testing program, or an improvement in the science.

c) The holy grail, a test which is capable of detecting when someone has used an autologous transfusion.

Until all these three are satisfied, it is very hard to look at the sport and genuinely believe that it is getting cleaner and cleaner. As has been said before, 2008 is the only time we even consider a clean Tour winner. If it happens in the Tour it certainly happens in the other GTs (don't have to look back far to find names like Mosquera and Di Luca). Does it only happen in GTs, amongst the top GC riders? No - why would Rebellin need to dope if that were the case. Only amongst the big names? Definitely not, we seem to get more sanctions from Conti and Pro Conti than Pro Tour, Thomas Frei was hardly a star.

So I guess what I'm saying is, that little has changed, there is still vast amounts of doping going on, I think it's impossible to dispute that. People may take solace in the fact that we may be seeing less extreme doping, slightly decreasing the gap between a clean and doped rider, but I don't. Some may call it progress, a realistic step forward, but to me it's noman'sland.

I don't think any person inside the sport or a fan could be happy with the current status quo. Of course, none of us, including JV are in a position to change things around overnight, but I think real action needs real words behind it. I believe that suggesting things are "better" than they were five is a bit misleading, for people whose end-game is a clean sport. I'm not being critical, marginal gains are important, but if we keep suggesting that the situation is better now we may start to actually believe it and lose track of the final outcome we all so much desire.

My post more or less a response to the following, but can be taken as a general comment.

Oh, and for the record: I do think the bio-passport is working. How many guys it catches is irrelevant to me, what is relevant is that climbing speeds and power outputs are well within physiological norms for the mean of the peloton nowadays. That is working, in my opinion. Talented, hard working guys that dont dope win a lot of races nowadays: Thats the bio-passport working.


JV

 

[fatandfast]

Buckwheat my man... I broke 2 toes carrying a girls bike down the stairs.. bad mood, bad food and lots of bad TV. It's amazing how bad 2 little toes can throb!! I just watched a show on ABC called "What Would You Do?". They put people in a moral pinch. It's shot in NY,NJ,CA.. I will know it's you when the guy goes in for the citizens arrest about whatever subject the introduce..Me and the JV's will be takin' our time to make sure we got the whole picture...this thing that you are outraged about and the www has brought to a boil started before the last great depression. I think the next time you see a couple of dudes puffin' one..you should go all Tiger Schullman on them and hold them until the cops get there... been hangin at 169 Bar,Boiler Room and Mars Bar until my toes feel better..come check out the 2 for 1 prices. I am the guy wearing a cycling tee shirt..