Vaughter's Spine

[buckwheat]

I didn't realize that King was a cycling fan... Some people are becoming a bit too 'emotively political' for a cycling forum...

It's an analogy and the Birmingham letter was talking about strategies to right wrongs.

You don't think "Livestrong" is playing on emotions and is political gamesmanship? It's so political the fraud leading it is/was spoken of as a potential major political figure. You do realize that Pharmstrong is using Public Strategies and very heavyweight lawyers, and fixers to advance his cause.

I feel fairly certain you haven't gauged this properly.

 

[washedup]

That Transitions commercial IS horrible. OMG. Haha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=800M1P855K4

 

[ultimobici]

LeMond lost his deal with Trek and had to start a court case which no doubt was extremely stress to him and his family. He lost credibility, when Armstrong started a hate campaign against him, which he is now slowly regaining. I imagine he also lost out on possible sponsorship deals. to name a few things he lost out on.

To compare Lemond's position with Vaughters is a little unfair. Vaughters is still reliant on being in cycling, whereas Lemond is out of cycling. While the Trek/Armstrong legal case was a stress, Vaughter's livelihood would be killed off if he spoke anywhere as directly as Lemond.

 

[buckwheat]

I'm not taking your situation lightly, it sounds like a Sh**ty way to treat a man.
I obviously don't know the whole story, but possibly it reinforces my "fitting in to the real world" question.

If people don't take human nature into account including all the bad things like greed, anger and revenge, then Man or Mouse they will get stepped on.
Its like running into a wall without taking into account its made of bricks.

Politicians, as much as I dislike them, tend to prosper because they understand this better than most. Ideals are great, but what use are they if you get shot down in the first battle?

Getting back on topic, I would argue that JV also understands the importance of applying his ideals while also co-existing with the powers that be?

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"
Irish dramatist & socialist (1856 - 1950)

 

[buckwheat]

To compare Lemond's position with Vaughters is a little unfair. Vaughters is still reliant on being in cycling, whereas Lemond is out of cycling. While the Trek/Armstrong legal case was a stress, Vaughter's livelihood would be killed off if he spoke anywhere as directly as Lemond.

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[Oldman]

Who along with Lemond and MLK has very little to lose.

+1. JV has to live another day to be effective. The scorched earth strategy is what Floyd had as an option. GL started on a path some time ago that might not have had a strategy and leaves his opinion to more debate. I'd like to see Vaughters continue and not make pronouncements at the expense of actual progress.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

It's an analogy and the Birmingham letter was talking about strategies to right wrongs.

You don't think "Livestrong" is playing on emotions and is political gamesmanship? It's so political the fraud leading it is/was spoken of as a potential major political figure. You do realize that Pharmstrong is using Public Strategies and very heavyweight lawyers, and fixers to advance his cause.

I feel fairly certain you haven't gauged this properly.

I understand the Birmingham letter, and how its impetus was to right wrongs.

I also understand how the Armstrong camp is doing whatever they can to bail out the boat as quickly as possible.

My only issue is that I hold sport outside of 'normal' society, so the requirements of society don't really apply to sport. Sport is the last bastion of true meritocracy - someone wins, everyone else got beaten. You can't have a functional society by those rules, so applying social rules to sport is equally ineffective.

Sport has its own rules. How about the riders follow those ones...

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[thehog]

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"
Irish dramatist & socialist (1856 - 1950)

You're an idiot.

 

[ricara]

John "Toadie" McCain???

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[JRTinMA]

To compare Lemond's position with Vaughters is a little unfair. Vaughters is still reliant on being in cycling, whereas Lemond is out of cycling. While the Trek/Armstrong legal case was a stress, Vaughter's livelihood would be killed off if he spoke anywhere as directly as Lemond.

Lemond was hugely involved in cycling, in fact it was his livelihood. I doubt Lemond got rich racing his bike, if he's wealthy today its because of his cycling related businesses. He was nearly ruined by what LA and Trek conspired to do. That makes Lemond a hero in my book, he would risk it all. Would JV? He hasn't yet and doing it in a GJ room may be a start but its a safe one and will do nothing to clean up this sport. JV may want a clean sport and has offered up an option but he ain't taking any hills like Lemond did.

 

[Benotti69]

To compare Lemond's position with Vaughters is a little unfair. Vaughters is still reliant on being in cycling, whereas Lemond is out of cycling. While the Trek/Armstrong legal case was a stress, Vaughter's livelihood would be killed off if he spoke anywhere as directly as Lemond.

Not comparing LeMond with Vaughters, merely mentioned that LeMond is the single consistent single outspoken voice against doping. There are others but no in the same league as LeMond.

Vuaghter's is an extremely intelligent person who would be very capable of making a life outside of cycling.

I do understand that he might not want to risk the team, but the sport needs more to speak out like LeMond.

 

[buckwheat]

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[MacRoadie]

To compare Lemond's position with Vaughters is a little unfair. Vaughters is still reliant on being in cycling, whereas Lemond is out of cycling. While the Trek/Armstrong legal case was a stress, Vaughter's livelihood would be killed off if he spoke anywhere as directly as Lemond.

Let's keep this in perspective. When Greg first became vocal over his "concern" about Armstrong, he was still very much "in" cycling, as a bike manufacturer, pro team sponsor, and strong proponent of amateur (especially junior) racing. It is a direct result of his outspokenness that he is now "out" of the sport (he's not out and never was, but his involvement has been seriously impacted).

Also, the "Trek/Armstrong legal case" was far more than simply "a stress", it was the culmination of years of effort on the part of Trek/Armstrong to silance Greg's criticisms. The lawsuit was the final chapter in the slow, methodical assasination of lemond's character and the attempt by Trek/Armstrong to ruin Greg financially.

 

[washedup]

One could say Slipstream is built on being clean. That being said, what is their responsibility going forward?

It isn't as if Slipstream and JV built a pragmatic program without promoting the hell out of it during a time when clean cycling was in need of a savior.

 

[ricara]

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[slcbiker]

I don't want to get into the whole IM/Armstrong side of this.

However, to say JV is spineless is a bit insulting. I think Garmin has gone some distance to trying to make things better.
More importantly, I remember Vaughters as a guy who had to drop out of the TdF cause he was told he couldn't take a cortisone injection to get rid of the swelling from a wasp sting. To stick around and try make a living ouit of the sport after such a disheartening experience took quite a bit of spine.

 

[buckwheat]

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[buckwheat]

I don't want to get into the whole IM/Armstrong side of this.

However, to say JV is spineless is a bit insulting. I think Garmin has gone some distance to trying to make things better.
More importantly, I remember Vaughters as a guy who had to drop out of the TdF cause he was told he couldn't take a cortisone injection to get rid of the swelling from a wasp sting. To stick around and try make a living ouit of the sport after such a disheartening experience took quite a bit of spine.

It's insulting? I'll give JV a crying towel then.

Wasn't it the MO of Pharmstrong just to go out and kick a$$ on anyone who stood in his way?

What would take a bit of spine would be for JV to figuratively (or even better, literally) bust LA in the mouth.

JV had the opportunity to, as LA put it; "Say that to my face."

What did JV do? He buckled. = Spineless.

 

[fatandfast]

One could say Slipstream is built on being clean. That being said, what is their responsibility going forward?

It isn't as if Slipstream and JV built a pragmatic program without promoting the hell out of it during a time when clean cycling was in need of a savior.

I am curious if you seen a team roll out in the past few years? All the big teams have a similar mission statement that says "we are doing everything to ensure we have clean riders.ect.ect" Garmin being no exception. I don't think you are making a leap to say JV wants a clean team but that has nothing to do with reality. Lots of US pros and non-Conti racers could be driving their car to do whatever. If we have learned anything from Flandis it's that he said in Australia that his doses were the size of tubes of toothpaste. Give or take the family or travel size toothpaste tube it doesn't take lots of space or time to have a program in place even if it's done out of wine chiller like Landis used. Why anybody would want JV to start acting like Lemond is insane. One guy is head deep in every part of racing the other guy is a guest speaker with posters of what he used to look like..and on the side sells stationary bikes.

 

[buckwheat]

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[_yngve_]

It's insulting? I'll give JV a crying towel then.

Wasn't it the MO of Pharmstrong just to go out and kick a$$ on anyone who stood in his way?

What would take a bit of spine would be for JV to figuratively (or even better, literally) bust LA in the mouth.

JV had the opportunity to, as LA put it; "Say that to my face."

What did JV do? He buckled. = Spineless.

Is your problem that JV didn't do all that he could to better cycling, or that he didn't do all that he could to tear down LA?

Despite the beliefs of some folks here on the Forums, the two are not necessarily one and the same.

 

[ricara]

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[buckwheat]

I am curious if you seen a team roll out in the past few years? All the big teams have a similar mission statement that says "we are doing everything to ensure we have clean riders.ect.ect" Garmin being no exception. I don't think you are making a leap to say JV wants a clean team but that has nothing to do with reality. Lots of US pros and non-Conti racers could be driving their car to do whatever. If we have learned anything from Flandis it's that he said in Australia that his doses were the size of tubes of toothpaste. Give or take the family or travel size toothpaste tube it doesn't take lots of space or time to have a program in place even if it's done out of wine chiller like Landis used. Why anybody would want JV to start acting like Lemond is insane. One guy is head deep in every part of racing the other guy is a guest speaker with posters of what he used to look like..and on the side sells stationary bikes.

It's called, upping the ante.

Hint, when you have a widely held truth, and you have info which can destroy the opponent, you ALWAYS up the ante.

WTF is the point of winning a bike race, or living for that matter, if you aren't going to proceed under those circumstances.

In this way I have a lot of respect for Pharmstrong. At least he has a ball.

This is the same exact reason why LeMond was kicking himself for backing down.

He knows if he upped the ante in 2001 he would have destroyed Lance, and/or been able to live with himself.

 

[buckwheat]

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[thehog]

Susan this thread needs to be closed. It's gone too far. You're going to have the website shut down if the slander continues.

I'm very serious. This is really bad. The worst I've seen on this site.