Vaughter's Spine

[washedup]

OK, so I am a huge Garmin fan. Gotta love Farrar and the bunch. Still, I can't help but wish JV would grow a spine.

The guy built this team around clean sport, yet when push comes to shove he can't seem to make a concrete statement about what is going on.

Would it kill the guy, who is a major player in the game, to say "This biological passport is working, and will continue to improve and catch people. The tests all work, and we can trust them."

Instead, we get some wishywashy statement about rider x and why this is a complicated case.


Any thoughts?

 

[D-Queued]

OK, so I am a huge Garmin fan. Gotta love Farrar and the bunch. Still, I can't help but wish JV would grow a spine.

The guy built this team around clean sport, yet when push comes to shove he can't seem to make a concrete statement about what is going on.

Would it kill the guy, who is a major player in the game, to say "This biological passport is working, and will continue to improve and catch people. The tests all work, and we can trust them."

Instead, we get some wishywashy statement about rider x and why this is a complicated case.


Any thoughts?

Yes. His career is still actively tied to a sport with rampant doping.

Not trying to be stupid, but there are questions even within his group.

Dave.

 

[washedup]

Indeed, you may sadly be correct. If this is actually the case, I hope it is revealed in the near future.

Wouldn't it be nice to have someone to cheer for?!

 

[BroDeal]

All questions about the stiffness of Vaughters spine were answered during the SCA suit. When he was deposed Vaughters suddenly forgot everything about doping. It turns out he just likes to gossip and nothing he might say (or write during an Internet chat session) should be believed. Right then Vaughters made his decision: Omerta is more important than truth.

It is foolish to believe that Vaughters runs his team with any more integrity than he showed while being deposed. Depending on how cynical you are, you can decide on whether Vaughters was sucked into maintaining the party line as his team joined the big leagues and he was granted a prominent position in the sport or whether his clean cycling stance was nothing more than a public relations scam from the very beginning.

 

[Ferminal]

OK, so I am a huge Garmin fan. Gotta love Farrar and the bunch. Still, I can't help but wish JV would grow a spine.

The guy built this team around clean sport, yet when push comes to shove he can't seem to make a concrete statement about what is going on.

Would it kill the guy, who is a major player in the game, to say "This biological passport is working, and will continue to improve and catch people. The tests all work, and we can trust them."

Instead, we get some wishywashy statement about rider x and why this is a complicated case.


Any thoughts?

I don't get that? Why would he say something like that when it's patently false.

 

[Digger]

I like him in many ways - However, the SCA thing is very hard to accept.

 

[python]

I like him in many ways - However, the SCA thing is very hard to accept.

what would you do if you were in his shoes, yell from the roof tops something that isn't going to be heard except by the sensation-starved and hurt you, or quietly tell novitzky everything and wait for the chips to fall where they may ?

jv sent plenty of signals where his mind and heart belong regarding texas...

 

[Benotti69]

what would you do if you were in his shoes, yell from the roof tops something that isn't going to be heard except by the sensation-starved and hurt you, or quietly tell novitzky everything and wait for the chips to fall where they may ?

jv sent plenty of signals where his mind and heart belong regarding texas...

if it comes out that he told Novitsky everything and had a hand in getting the truth out about what really went on it would go some way to excusing his performance in court.

but in a cesspit of the sport he is by all appearances just above it, whether has has a foot in it i don't know

 

[thehog]

I like him in many ways - However, the SCA thing is very hard to accept.

Hang on. I draw the line at Vaughters. He’s a great man. None of you have any idea what’s done for the anti-doping movement. We should remember he’s anti-doping not anti-Lance. His involvement at the SCA trial was very small. All that he was questioned on was if he saw doping during Armstrong’s 5th win. Which of course he didn’t. He also provided an avadavat that the IM with Frankie was more “social gossip” than fact which is also true. JV has spoken many times to ASO, the UCI and WADA about doping. He’s provided more than enough information to them to combat doping. Just because he doesn’t speak to the press about doesn’t mean he not doing something. How many times do we complain when someone spills there guts to the press. JV’s a good man. We can thank him for a lot. Take your mind back to 2006. The sport was truly FU. At the time to set up a clean Pro-Tour team was madness. But he did it and look at them now.

 

[Roland Rat]

Hang on. I draw the line at Vaughters. He’s a great man. None of you have any idea what’s done for the anti-doping movement. We should remember he’s anti-doping not anti-Lance. His involvement at the SCA trial was very small. All that he was questioned on was if he saw doping during Armstrong’s 5th win. Which of course he didn’t. He also provided an avadavat that the IM with Frankie was more “social gossip” than fact which is also true. JV has spoken many times to ASO, the UCI and WADA about doping. He’s provided more than enough information to them to combat doping. Just because he doesn’t speak to the press about doesn’t mean he not doing something. How many times do we complain when someone spills there guts to the press. JV’s a good man. We can thank him for a lot. Take your mind back to 2006. The sport was truly FU. At the time to set up a clean Pro-Tour was madness. But he did it and look at them now.

+1.

Plus, if he did speak out as much as some want him to he'd be forced out of pro cycling for good. As it is, and he has said this himself (but can't remember where, maybe even when posting on this board), he can effect much more change from the inside than the outside. It's a fine line he has to tread, but everything's not as black and white as people want, and to have the opportunity to change the sport he will have to bite his tongue every now and then.

 

[L'arriviste]

So has he got some sort of spinal deformity or what? Or is it just a crap thread title?

 

[Anonymous]

I don't get that? Why would he say something like that when it's patently false.

my thoughts exactly..

+1.

Plus, if he did speak out as much as some want him to he'd be forced out of pro cycling for good. As it is, and he has said this himself (but can't remember where, maybe even when posting on this board), he can effect much more change from the inside than the outside. It's a fine line he has to tread, but everything's not as black and white as people want, and to have the opportunity to change the sport he will have to bite his tongue every now and then.

that too

 

[Digger]

what would you do if you were in his shoes, yell from the roof tops something that isn't going to be heard except by the sensation-starved and hurt you, or quietly tell novitzky everything and wait for the chips to fall where they may ?

jv sent plenty of signals where his mind and heart belong regarding texas...

Firstly when the SCA trial was going ahead, JV certainly did not know about any future meeting with Jeff...so that's a mute point.
I am not asking him to yell anything. I do believe that he backed out as regards the IM conversation. He knew it was the truth, but hid behind the 'gossip' line.

 

[Digger]

Hang on. I draw the line at Vaughters. He’s a great man. None of you have any idea what’s done for the anti-doping movement. We should remember he’s anti-doping not anti-Lance. His involvement at the SCA trial was very small. All that he was questioned on was if he saw doping during Armstrong’s 5th win. Which of course he didn’t. He also provided an avadavat that the IM with Frankie was more “social gossip” than fact which is also true. JV has spoken many times to ASO, the UCI and WADA about doping. He’s provided more than enough information to them to combat doping. Just because he doesn’t speak to the press about doesn’t mean he not doing something. How many times do we complain when someone spills there guts to the press. JV’s a good man. We can thank him for a lot. Take your mind back to 2006. The sport was truly FU. At the time to set up a clean Pro-Tour team was madness. But he did it and look at them now.

Hog i don't doubt much of this, but my issue is his response to the IM. He used the gossip line and you know full well that was less than truthful. It was the truth and he should have backed it up. I am not talking about everything you just mention, i am talking about the IM converation.

 

[happychappy]

So has he got some sort of spinal deformity or what? Or is it just a crap thread title?

Didn't he used to ride a bike once? Must have been a bit irritating, the old not having a spine thing.

 

[_yngve_]

...so that's a mute point.

It's 'moot', pronounced like 'boot'. Opposing counsel at an arbitration I was conducting tried to explain to the arbitrator that an issue I raised was mute. After nearly shooting coffee out of her nose, she composed herself enough to quip that, while the issue may not be able to speak for itself, it did appear to be sufficiently valid that it could be explored by the panel

Why should Frankie and Betsy stick their necks out and not JV?

IIRC, JV was already running TIAA-CREF at the time, wasn't he? As someone noted earlier, the unfortunate reality in the mid aughts (if not today) is that an attempt by someone actively involved in bicycle racing, especially on a management level where race invites often come down to the whims of the organizers, to stick your neck out will more often than not result in them losing their head.

Betsy, didn't have this risk. Frankie, while attempting to piece together a post-riding career within the industry, was still less involved in the inner workings of USAC/UCI politics than JV (although his outspokenness likely did cost Frankie his position at Toyota-United)

 

[TERMINATOR]

Hang on. I draw the line at Vaughters. He’s a great man. None of you have any idea what’s done for the anti-doping movement. We should remember he’s anti-doping not anti-Lance.

So how does Vaughters explain hiring Allen Lim, a guy who has been implicated as the Ferrari of the U.S. and will likely be charged with perjury? And how do you explain Vaughters trying to hire Contador when their were plenty of signs the guy was not clean?

Vaughters wants Contador to be clean - otherwise it would show him to have a non-existent vetting system in the Garmin hiring process.

Also, I have yet to see any blood profiles released by Garmin.

 

[Anonymous]

Hey JV (waves).

 

[thehog]

Also, I have yet to see any blood profiles released by Garmin.

http://www.slipstreamsports.com/2009/07/31/bradley-wiggins-releases-blood-profiles

 

[jimmypop]

Yes. His career is still actively tied to a sport with rampant doping.

Not trying to be stupid, but there are questions even within his group.

Dave.

Hey Dave - glad you're visiting the cesspool while the more high-browed cesspool is on vacation!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

OK, so I am a huge Garmin fan. Gotta love Farrar and the bunch. Still, I can't help but wish JV would grow a spine.

The guy built this team around clean sport, yet when push comes to shove he can't seem to make a concrete statement about what is going on.

Would it kill the guy, who is a major player in the game, to say "This biological passport is working, and will continue to improve and catch people. The tests all work, and we can trust them."

Instead, we get some wishywashy statement about rider x and why this is a complicated case.


Any thoughts?

But he did say that here on CN:

"I respect Walsh and his anti-doping stance. That being said, I don't like criticism of the biological passport. I understand that it isn't perfect, like any anti-doping technology, but it is the best technology that we've got right now, and I think it's something that the sport should be immensely proud of. No one has done this before and we're pushing the boundaries to the far edge. We've got to be proud of that."

In fact I was critrical of him for making those remarks - as it was obvious that the BP was not being used to the best of its ability and I asked him through the forum to clarify.

He made another statement with (IIRC) Velonews where he said the BP was good but could be improved.

 

[Digger]

It's 'moot', pronounced like 'boot'. Opposing counsel at an arbitration I was conducting tried to explain to the arbitrator that an issue I raised was mute. After nearly shooting coffee out of her nose, she composed herself enough to quip that, while the issue may not be able to speak for itself, it did appear to be sufficiently valid that it could be explored by the panel



IIRC, JV was already running TIAA-CREF at the time, wasn't he? As someone noted earlier, the unfortunate reality in the mid aughts (if not today) is that an attempt by someone actively involved in bicycle racing, especially on a management level where race invites often come down to the whims of the organizers, to stick your neck out will more often than not result in them losing their head.

Betsy, didn't have this risk. Frankie, while attempting to piece together a post-riding career within the industry, was still less involved in the inner workings of USAC/UCI politics than JV (although his outspokenness likely did cost Frankie his position at Toyota-United)

If no one tells the truth, because they are afraid for their current jobs, then there is no point whatsoever in looking at the past and trying to learn from it.
He was clearly advised legally, on what exactly he could say. Because it reeked of an answer supplied by his legal team.

And yes, Frankie no doubt got the boot over what he said. However, at least he can say he told the truth and he is doing very good for himself again.

However, even if one was to say that JV did it in order to position himself so as to be in charge of a team to clean the sport in the future, how can one reconcile this with the attempted signing of AC?

 

[JV1973]

OK, so I am a huge Garmin fan. Gotta love Farrar and the bunch. Still, I can't help but wish JV would grow a spine.

The guy built this team around clean sport, yet when push comes to shove he can't seem to make a concrete statement about what is going on.

Would it kill the guy, who is a major player in the game, to say "This biological passport is working, and will continue to improve and catch people. The tests all work, and we can trust them."

Instead, we get some wishywashy statement about rider x and why this is a complicated case.


Yes, I have some thoughts. Gotta say this one got me...

ok:

1. Vaughters in possessive would be Vaughters' not Vaughter's.

2. regarding my statements on Contador in VeloNews, why would I say that the bio-passport is working when this case is totally unrelated to the bio-passport? The Contador case has zero to do with Bayesian statistical modeling being used in hematology. So, I dont understand why you would want me to make a statement about the bio-passport working, when this case has nothing to do with the bio_passport?
This case is complicated and will take a long time. I don't think thats an inflammatory statement, do you?

3. I was never deposed or questioned re SCA and I certainly never testified.

4. I encourage you to read the full content of the affidavit I signed regarding my IM convo with Frankie. I also encourage you to analyze it with a legal expert so that you can understand the content of the statement.

5. The affidavit and the IM convo were never submitted as evidence, as the case was closed on other basis. They were leaked, after the fact...I dont know why, but it certainly has been fun to talk about, hasnt it?

My point here, overall, is before you judge someone, maybe get all of the information, first.
Thank (some of you) for the defense of the veracity of my work and posture towards anti-doping. I hope and think that you guys will find that to be accurate, as I certainly know it is. The greater the transparency the better for my team, but I cant convince Paul Kimmage to spend his whole year living with us!
On that note, although sometimes talking to the media about every fart that is blown in the fight against doping is unproductive and actually hurts the end result, I certainly have no fear of any level of scrutiny being placed on my team by the media. None.
I see "omerta" a lot written here, which is fine, but please consider that stupid statements based on stupidity are not much better than omerta. To my thinking its useless to complain, unless you have a solution. Id rather spend my breath and effort on real, pragmatic solutions when it comes to anti-doping.
Just a few of my thoughts....However, I have a day job that I need to get on with.

I encourage you to give me a call, if you want to discuss further. Also, D-queued, I also would love to hear your thoughts on my team, but call me so I can use your information, as its apparently better than the information I have or the Catlins have. I'm not hard to get a a hold of, so go ahead, call me up, if you have the spine, that is

 

[gobuck]

Thanks for the reply JV. Much appreciated!

 

[JV1973]

OK, so I am a huge Garmin fan. Gotta love Farrar and the bunch. Still, I can't help but wish JV would grow a spine.

The guy built this team around clean sport, yet when push comes to shove he can't seem to make a concrete statement about what is going on.

Would it kill the guy, who is a major player in the game, to say "This biological passport is working, and will continue to improve and catch people. The tests all work, and we can trust them."

To simplify what I was saying before:

I just dont think I'm the arrogant, slimy c*ck wad you guys think I am, and sometimes reading this stuff is really not so much fun, esp when I put so much of myself into anti-doping...

Oh, and for the record: I do think the bio-passport is working. How many guys it catches is irrelevant to me, what is relevant is that climbing speeds and power outputs are well within physiological norms for the mean of the peloton nowadays. That is working, in my opinion. Talented, hard working guys that dont dope win a lot of races nowadays: Thats the bio-passport working.


JV