Vayer unchained

[JMBeaushrimp]

Is there any legitimate reason for cycling teams to employ doctors? And if they must have one why does it have to be one with experience in cycling? Id like to get Bailsford to answer those questions.

Holy F*ck! Really?

Basically an 11 month race schedule: crashes, fatigue, tendonitis, food poisoning, more crashes, the flu, food poisoning again, a bad cold, more tendonitis, another crash, head injury, infection, insomnia, more crashing, and finally rehydrating...

There are about a thousand reasons to have a doc on the team.

 

[biokemguy]

...And I don't really know why teams are so shy of publishing that data (apart from the dirty ones who are then exposed). So your opponent finds out your power levels. Well, they're going to find out at the first race day, anyway....

+1

Surely Contador is working with his trainer to guess where Froome will be at in July. I'm guessing that they'll be able to estimate it pretty well.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

My point exactly - so why is Vayer interested?

If numbers prove nothing, then you have no thesis. No point. Of course numbers have meaning. 60% HCT is statistically above normal. 3500 VAM is kind of weird. 8 W/kg should make you pause...

John Swanson

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Holy F*ck! Really?

Basically an 11 month race schedule: crashes, fatigue, tendonitis, food poisoning, more crashes, the flu, food poisoning again, a bad cold, more tendonitis, another crash, head injury, infection, insomnia, more crashing, and finally rehydrating...

There are about a thousand reasons to have a doc on the team.

Which of those can a doctor, who can't perform injections, be effective in treating?

Crashes - Well, it either requires a plaster and bactine, or a trip to the hospital. The doctor does what besides roadside emergency care?
The flu - Huh. A doctor can do something for that?
Food poisoning - What does a doctor do to treat that? Send to hospital?
A bad cold - Well there's something a good doctor can treat!!
Fatigue - Right. I see my doctor when I'm run down. I don't sleep and/or rest. And by all means don't get a massage.
Tendonitis! - Yes. My doctor treats that by... Hmmm. How does a good doctor treat tendonitis? Do *not* see a sports therapist. They are quacks.
Insomnia - Well here's where a good doctor can finally write a prescription! And maybe a TUE or eight.
Head injury - a good doctor on staff means you don't need a pesky trip to the ER or an MRI. Good save.
Rehydration - for when a glass of water won't do. You need a very good doctor to take care of that.

John Swanson

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

Which of those can a doctor, who can't perform injections, be effective in treating?

Crashes - Well, it either requires a plaster and bactine, or a trip to the hospital. The doctor does what besides roadside emergency care?
The flu - Huh. A doctor can do something for that?
Food poisoning - What does a doctor do to treat that? Send to hospital?
A bad cold - Well there's something a good doctor can treat!!
Fatigue - Right. I see my doctor when I'm run down. I don't sleep and/or rest. And by all means don't get a massage.
Tendonitis! - Yes. My doctor treats that by... Hmmm. How does a good doctor treat tendonitis? Do *not* see a sports therapist. They are quacks.
Insomnia - Well here's where a good doctor can finally write a prescription! And maybe a TUE or eight.
Head injury - a good doctor on staff means you don't need a pesky trip to the ER or an MRI. Good save.
Rehydration - for when a glass of water won't do. You need a very good doctor to take care of that.

John Swanson

All big professional teams in other sports have doctors. Why not cycling?

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Other sports aren't cycling. Why should a cycling team have a staff of doctors? What role do they fill?

Better yet - in an ideal world, if the UCI had a pool of 20 qualified, vetted, verified clean doctors - why couldn't they take care of the pro riders?

John Swanson

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Which of those can a doctor, who can't perform injections, be effective in treating?

Crashes - Well, it either requires a plaster and bactine, or a trip to the hospital. The doctor does what besides roadside emergency care?
The flu - Huh. A doctor can do something for that?
Food poisoning - What does a doctor do to treat that? Send to hospital?
A bad cold - Well there's something a good doctor can treat!!
Fatigue - Right. I see my doctor when I'm run down. I don't sleep and/or rest. And by all means don't get a massage.
Tendonitis! - Yes. My doctor treats that by... Hmmm. How does a good doctor treat tendonitis? Do *not* see a sports therapist. They are quacks.
Insomnia - Well here's where a good doctor can finally write a prescription! And maybe a TUE or eight.
Head injury - a good doctor on staff means you don't need a pesky trip to the ER or an MRI. Good save.
Rehydration - for when a glass of water won't do. You need a very good doctor to take care of that.

John Swanson

Apparently you agree that a doc would be of assistance in the vast majority of soft cases I presented.

If you're from a different country, riding for a team from a different country, racing in a different country, then a team doc may be of assistance.

If you can get a contract in the pro leagues that allows you to race within 10km of your home, get it done!

These are multi-million euro teams. It's not the home club, son.

 

[romnom]

My point exactly - so why is Vayer interested?

If nothing else it should make some of the things they keep telling people a lot easier to believe. The power of numbers might be limited, but they should be at least able to make a good case on how much slower the clean peloton is compared to the dark days. As in back their own words with the data they have rather than expect people to just trust what they are told.

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

Other sports aren't cycling. Why should a cycling team have a staff of doctors? What role do they fill?

Better yet - in an ideal world, if the UCI had a pool of 20 qualified, vetted, verified clean doctors - why couldn't they take care of the pro riders?

John Swanson

Do you really expect, for example, that a team would allow a rider who was ill to pop down to the local clinic in (probably) a foreign country to see a doctor who might not speak his language and prescribe him something that may have traces of a banned substance?

Second paragraph, in light of the past, I agree with.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

The doctors can't prescribe an injection of any kind. So what could they do for a rider that any non-licensed physiotherapist do? Why do you think that a local clinic could do any worse?

Or do you think a rider with a head injury gets taken onto the team bus where the team doctor uses his Jedi powers to diagnose an heal a subcranial hematoma?

John Swanson

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

The doctors can't prescribe an injection of any kind. So what could they do for a rider that any non-licensed physiotherapist do? Why do you think that a local clinic could do any worse?

Or do you think a rider with a head injury gets taken onto the team bus where the team doctor uses his Jedi powers to diagnose an heal a subcranial hematoma?

John Swanson

If the local clinic is anything like my GPs they would have to wait 24 hours for an appointment and then have to drive to the local pharmacy to pick up an overpriced prescription

Seriously, you are paying someone thousands of euros to be as fit as possible and when they get ill you send them down to see a doctor who knows nothing about their past history because they are thousands of miles away from home.

Why should cycling (apart from its murky history) be any different to any other sport or indeed major international corporation?

 

[ScienceIsCool]

If the local clinic is anything like my GPs they would have to wait 24 hours for an appointment and then have to drive to the local pharmacy to pick up an overpriced prescription

Seriously, you are paying someone thousands of euros to be as fit as possible and when they get ill you send them down to see a doctor who knows nothing about their past history because they are thousands of miles away from home.

Why should cycling (apart from its murky history) be any different to any other sport or indeed major international corporation?

And what is your on-staff doctor going to do that the clinic can't? How many doctors does a team need?

Do they need doctors? What could the doctor do that a team physiologist can not?

John Swanson

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

And what is your on-staff doctor going to do that the clinic can't? How many doctors does a team need?

Do they need doctors? What could the doctor do that a team physiologist can not?

John Swanson

Perhaps nothing, but they'd be seen a damn sight quicker. Also it is always better to see someone you trust (however misguided the trust may be) with a medical problem rather than a random stranger.

Don't know, I hope JV answers your questions on the other thread.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

And what is your on-staff doctor going to do that the clinic can't? How many doctors does a team need?

Do they need doctors? What could the doctor do that a team physiologist can not?

John Swanson

Here's a first. I've never said this in the Clinic before.

You may actually be too stupid to talk to.

And knowing the regulars, you should be pretty proud of that...

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Here's a first. I've never said this in the Clinic before.

You may actually be too stupid to talk to.

And knowing the regulars, you should be pretty proud of that...

Thank you. If you can elucidate your dis-satisfaction then maybe we can resolve our differences.

Until then, "Duh-doy..."

John Swanson

 

[martinvickers]

Do you really expect, for example, that a team would allow a rider who was ill to pop down to the local clinic in (probably) a foreign country to see a doctor who might not speak his language and prescribe him something that may have traces of a banned substance?

Second paragraph, in light of the past, I agree with.

I should add, the brits do have one very distinct bad experience in rougbly that area - Alain Baxter.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Thank you. If you can elucidate your dis-satisfaction then maybe we can resolve our differences.

Until then, "Duh-doy..."

John Swanson

Apologies. Caught me at a moment of profound frustration.

Nothing personal, apart from the fact that you can't see the utility (or necessity) of an on-team doctor.

I would think that that would be so manifestly obvious that there would be no question about it.

Sorry for being a d*ck...

 

[JimmyFingers]

It's amazing what not winning Tirreno-Adriatico does for the reputation.

 

[chase196126]

Having a team doctor on a cycling team is an extremely good idea, in my opinion. A doctor who has a large amount of experience treating cyclists, or any other sport, specifically for years may be able to diagnose issues and correct them in a much more timely manner than going to a local clinic.

For example, while racing an important race in 2011, I was suffering from extreme anxiety stemming from an hugely stressful relationship issue as well as the racing itself. The anxiety was so bad my heart rate was close to or above 100 when resting and I was barely sleeping.

Unfortunately our pro team doctor was not with us at the race, but my coach was a doctor for one of the other teams there. He was able to prescribe me a small amount of anti anxiety and sleep medication to get me through the race. He understood what was going on in my life and the stresses of a professional athlete during competition. Ignoring the fact that during a stage race there is no time to try to visit a local clinic, a local clinic (especially in the US) is going to be extremely guarded when it comes to dispensing a short term anti anxiety medication. They are going to want you to see a psych doctor and will recommend long term medication treatments because they do not have the experience or understanding of the situation that a team doctor has.

Other issues that a team doctor can solve are pain/issues stemming from a bike fit issue or a crash/imbalance causing the previous fit to not be suitable for the short term. A team doctors job is greatly involved in treating very short term issues of riders they are intimately familiar with to help them survive and perform as best they can in the face of an unexpected problem. Having a limited amount of doctors could never keep up with the demands of the professional peloton, and that is not fair to the athletes.

I am no denying that there are doctors used for their doping knowledge, but it is just as naive to suggest that the ONLY use for team doctors is to cheat.

 

[Tinman]

Brailsford's reply. Feeling the heat...

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...ford-hits-out-at-doping-innuendo-8533452.html

Interesting he is using the "I" rather than the "we" we have seen from him in the past when talking about the team success and doping.

Setting himself up for a future claim it happened without his knowledge?

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

So evident, it's not even worth talking about...

 

[Catwhoorg]

I should add, the brits do have one very distinct bad experience in rougbly that area - Alain Baxter.

Indeed. Had he used the UK version of the remedy he would have kept his medal.

Formulations of the same products do vary regionally.

Whats the advice to the pros ? Don't take anything unless its checked by the doctor.

That alone justifies them being on the team.

 

[Tinman]

Doctors are bound by their medical association code. These associations need to strike them off the medical register when they contravene this code (or indeed do illegal things such as facilitate use of unregistered medications for dubious use).

Dodgy sports doctors bring down the reputation of the medical profession, and in particular the good and growing reputation of sports medicine.

Local governments could also pressure local medical associations to be more proactive.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I think it's hilarious the whole "lots of experience with cyclists" doctor requirement. There's probably one thing - saddle sores - that are not that different to boils anyway, that is unique to cycling.

Everything else. And I do mean everything. Can be handled by any GP that deals with sports people in general.

As for the argument "you need a doctor on board because you can't send a rider to the local doctor of the area where the race is being conducted".

Really!??

They are racing in Spain and Italy and Europe or Australia. Geert Leinders is Belgian. Fuentes is Spanish. Ferrari is Italian. Vayer is French.

Which race is it exactly that you can't send your rider to the local medico to get treated? They are all part of the EU and subject to similar levels of medical knowledge and expertise. And cyclists are NOT experiencing unique maladies.

Also: vet and register, as ScienceGuy suggested (and others previously) a bunch of doctors, just like you have chaperones and doping sample collectors and dole them out as required.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Which of those can a doctor, who can't perform injections, be effective in treating?

Crashes - Well, it either requires a plaster and bactine, or a trip to the hospital. The doctor does what besides roadside emergency care?
The flu - Huh. A doctor can do something for that?
Food poisoning - What does a doctor do to treat that? Send to hospital?
A bad cold - Well there's something a good doctor can treat!!
Fatigue - Right. I see my doctor when I'm run down. I don't sleep and/or rest. And by all means don't get a massage.
Tendonitis! - Yes. My doctor treats that by... Hmmm. How does a good doctor treat tendonitis? Do *not* see a sports therapist. They are quacks.
Insomnia - Well here's where a good doctor can finally write a prescription! And maybe a TUE or eight.
Head injury - a good doctor on staff means you don't need a pesky trip to the ER or an MRI. Good save.
Rehydration - for when a glass of water won't do. You need a very good doctor to take care of that.

John Swanson

Sorry, but you need to read exactly what the 'no needle policy' is:

The UCI Regulations now prohibit injections of medicines or other substances, without a medical indication, that have the objective of artificially improving performance or recovery (vitamins, sugars, enzymes, amino acids, antioxidants, etc.). This measure is above all designed to protect the riders' health and contribute to eradicating doping by restricting a practice that is all too often abused. By prohibiting injections and establishing associated sanctions, the UCI is seeking, in particular, to:

• eliminate perfusion and injection without medical indication, as these represent an open door to doping;
• encourage natural physical recovery by rejecting the principle of the automatic recourse to injections;
• provide doctors with the means to resist pressure from riders or their entourages who seek unjustified treatment, in order to allow them to respect point 6.3 of the Olympic Movement Medical Code: "Athletes’ health care providers (…) must refrain from performing any intervention that is not medically indicated, even at the request of the athletes, their entourage or another health care provider (…)."

However - as you added in a later post - this is the solution:

Other sports aren't cycling. Why should a cycling team have a staff of doctors? What role do they fill?

Better yet - in an ideal world, if the UCI had a pool of 20 qualified, vetted, verified clean doctors - why couldn't they take care of the pro riders?

John Swanson