Vayer unchained

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Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Tinman said:
No no no UCI pool of doctors, please...
Hehe.
It is actually the best option IMO.
Of course the current UCI should have little to do with it, as it stands the adherence to the 'no needle policy' hasnt even been done by the UCI yet.
 
Aug 27, 2012
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Maybe as part of the independent doping agency.

I eat my chicken after I take out the bones.
 
JMBeaushrimp said:
Holy F*ck! Really?

Basically an 11 month race schedule: crashes, fatigue, tendonitis, food poisoning, more crashes, the flu, food poisoning again, a bad cold, more tendonitis, another crash, head injury, infection, insomnia, more crashing, and finally rehydrating...

There are about a thousand reasons to have a doc on the team.

Then y did they only come to that conclusion basically in the 90s. Before that, there was the tour doc and each riders own personal doc back at home. This sudden need for team doc ( or god forbid team docs) coincides almost exclusively with the arrival of generalized epo and blood doping.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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ScienceIsCool said:
The doctors can't prescribe an injection of any kind. So what could they do for a rider that any non-licensed physiotherapist do? Why do you think that a local clinic could do any worse?

Or do you think a rider with a head injury gets taken onto the team bus where the team doctor uses his Jedi powers to diagnose an heal a subcranial hematoma?

John Swanson

WTF man? Seriously? A doctor cannot prescribe an injection?

Of course they can. If they have the goods they can inject it directly into any body part you present. Any body part. There is nothing stopping anybody from injecting any substance into their body other than PROXIMITY. If they have a product they can inject any thing they want. Anyone can. Doesn't need to be the doctor. Willy Voet had a nice run doing just that at Festina. Injecting the boys with the goods.

Oh the rules SAY they can't. Yeah, because we all know how omerta works and that da rules, ain't really important in pro sports at all.:eek: Nah, the rules are more of guidelines that can be bent. Broken if the testing mechanisms won't catch you. And it's not cheating!!! It's called clean riding these days.

Head trauma...remember the 2011 Tour. The big crash. Bruyneel and co sure used their intuitive wannabe Jedi powers to let Horner ride the rest of a stage with major head trauma. He sure didn't get taken onto the team bus or any vehicle. Was put back on his bike and told to ride. Understand that mentality and you are well on the way to fathoming how these guys think and act. It's not normal. They do whatever they want period. Rules matter little.
 
Reread Chase's post, this is a valid opinion of a current pro that you should take into account.

Why can't each team nominate a set number of Dr's (say 2-3, to cover multiple stage races) at the start of each season who are then vetted by the UCI? If a rider tests positive on the team, all Dr's for that team are then investigated by the UCI/WADA. If they are found to be involved, said Dr/Dr's are deregistered from working with the UCI in any capacity and sued for malpractice.
 
Dear Wiggo said:
I think it's hilarious the whole "lots of experience with cyclists" doctor requirement. There's probably one thing - saddle sores - that are not that different to boils anyway, that is unique to cycling.

Everything else. And I do mean everything. Can be handled by any GP that deals with sports people in general.

As for the argument "you need a doctor on board because you can't send a rider to the local doctor of the area where the race is being conducted".

Really!??

They are racing in Spain and Italy and Europe or Australia. Geert Leinders is Belgian. Fuentes is Spanish. Ferrari is Italian. Vayer is French.

Which race is it exactly that you can't send your rider to the local medico to get treated? They are all part of the EU and subject to similar levels of medical knowledge and expertise. And cyclists are NOT experiencing unique maladies.

Also: vet and register, as ScienceGuy suggested (and others previously) a bunch of doctors, just like you have chaperones and doping sample collectors and dole them out as required.
Reread Chase's post, this is a valid opinion of a current pro that you should take into account.

Why can't each team nominate a set number of Dr's (say 2-3, to cover multiple stage races) at the start of each season who are then vetted by the UCI? If a rider tests positive on the team, all Dr's for that team are then investigated by the UCI/WADA. If they are found to be involved, said Dr/Dr's are deregistered from working with the UCI in any capacity and sued for malpractice.
 
Jan 30, 2011
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I don't know that having UCI certified/registered doctors will change much.

Ferrari has had plenty of clients while not working for a team.

If the doctors can't come to the riders (ie. as team doctors), then the riders will just go to the doping doctors privately.

I think in the end, it would be a measure that looks like it does something, but will have little/no effect.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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42x16ss said:
Reread Chase's post, this is a valid opinion of a current pro that you should take into account.

Honestly? Nothing a medical history couldn't solve.

42x16ss said:
Why can't each team nominate a set number of Dr's (say 2-3, to cover multiple stage races) at the start of each season who are then vetted by the UCI? If a rider tests positive on the team, all Dr's for that team are then investigated by the UCI/WADA. If they are found to be involved, said Dr/Dr's are deregistered from working with the UCI in any capacity and sued for malpractice.

Doctors are even more highly motivated to help their riders not test positive.
 
Dear Wiggo said:
Honestly? Nothing a medical history couldn't solve.



Doctors are even more highly motivated to help their riders not test positive.
In places such as the USA, where proper health care is considered "communism" by many, incidents such as the one Chase described would be expensive as well as time consuming. It would be far more cost effective for the teams to have their own doctor on board.

Certainly not ideal, I agree! However it avoids lugging around each and every rider's medical history, poor doctors (yes they do exist), language barriers and varying waiting times.

Yes, Doctor's don't want their riders to test positive, that's why you threaten them with fraud/malpractice suits and make them high profile. Then they can't be hired again without anyone with passing knowledge assuming dodgy practices.

There's no perfect solution but you can't keep viewing everything in black and blacker.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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42x16ss said:
In places such as the USA, where proper health care is considered "communism" by many, incidents such as the one Chase described would be expensive as well as time consuming. It would be far more cost effective for the teams to have their own doctor on board.

Certainly not ideal, I agree! However it avoids lugging around each and every rider's medical history, poor doctors (yes they do exist), language barriers and varying waiting times.

Yes, Doctor's don't want their riders to test positive, that's why you threaten them with fraud/malpractice suits and make them high profile. Then they can't be hired again without anyone with passing knowledge assuming dodgy practices.

There's no perfect solution but you can't keep viewing everything in black and blacker.

I think a little more transparency all 'round would do wonders. Can we even name the doctors of all the teams? The soigneurs and mechanics? Coaches etc?

I'm wary of handing any responsibility to UCI for anything, but a register, of people involved in the teams, and then which riders they deal with mostly, would be useful long-term. Certainly in establishing patterns based on outcomes. You can find out some of this stuff, but not all of it. And yes, it does open the door to aspersions being cast, but welcome to high profile jobs and the possible rewards that go with it.
 
Benotti69 said:
He wont answer it truthfully. The race supplies docs, the are plenty of local docs where teams are based, hospitlas near races etc. why do they need team docs? for doping.

In a recent interview, Bassons said he had never consulted with a team doctor and preferred to see his family doctor if he had a lingering illness.

He said that if you took care of your body properly and consulted a race doctor if you got sick during a stage race, then there shouldn't be a need to see a dedicated team doctor.

Now Bassons didn't ride in the "days of yore", so I think his view (based on purely physical factors) is an interesting counterpoint to Chase above, even if one could argue that Bassons perhaps enjoyed a stronger physical constitution than most or else he demonstrates a certain naïveté often noted in French riders. ;)
 
Apr 20, 2012
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chase196126 said:
For example, while racing an important race in 2011, I was suffering from extreme anxiety stemming from an hugely stressful relationship issue as well as the racing itself. The anxiety was so bad my heart rate was close to or above 100 when resting and I was barely sleeping.
Not trying to be a d.ck but it looks like you were unfit to race at that time.
 
Jan 27, 2010
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ScienceIsCool said:
The doctors can't prescribe an injection of any kind. So what could they do for a rider that any non-licensed physiotherapist do? Why do you think that a local clinic could do any worse?

Or do you think a rider with a head injury gets taken onto the team bus where the team doctor uses his Jedi powers to diagnose an heal a subcranial hematoma?

John Swanson

John,

I think a team Doc is important because that professional can discern the nuances between a cold, a flu or early pneumonia and make expeditious treatment decisions that ultimately help the athlete. He/she would also be trusted and this would avoid tampering with your cycling 'commodity'. This would hopefully help that rider return to racing earlier, avoid further complications or missed diagnoses. You can apply that to the gradation of dehydration, trauma etc...

As for Subcranial, that would be below the entire skull. I'm sure you mean subgaleal or subdural hematoma.

wrt to the potential for a doc to dope an entire team, collude to pass doping tests, and to be unprofessional and a SOB...we'll we know all about that, and I cannot disagree with you at all.

I think teams need a Doc, way more than they need the current UCI.

Drew
 
Dear Wiggo said:
I think a little more transparency all 'round would do wonders. Can we even name the doctors of all the teams? The soigneurs and mechanics? Coaches etc?

I'm wary of handing any responsibility to UCI for anything, but a register, of people involved in the teams, and then which riders they deal with mostly, would be useful long-term. Certainly in establishing patterns based on outcomes. You can find out some of this stuff, but not all of it. And yes, it does open the door to aspersions being cast, but welcome to high profile jobs and the possible rewards that go with it.
Agree on the transparency, what you described is exactly what I'm talking about :). If the medical professionals for each team are known to the public (or can be found out easily) and real punishments are handed out, then we'll have a whole new ball game re: risk vs reward.
 
chase196126 said:
Having a team doctor on a cycling team is an extremely good idea, in my opinion. A doctor who has a large amount of experience treating cyclists, or any other sport, specifically for years may be able to diagnose issues and correct them in a much more timely manner than going to a local clinic. ... He was able to prescribe me a small amount of anti anxiety and sleep medication to get me through the race. He understood what was going on in my life and the stresses of a professional athlete during competition.

What you describe requires no special kind of doctor though.

Yes, some will be better because they can work out that the racing is vital to you at the moment and how physically demanding the sport is, but other than that minimal criteria ANY lowly General Practitioner engaged in her surroundings would be excellent.

Each team does not even need one, but there's no argument it would sure be nice to have. How about a race doctor? The TdF has one.
 
May 26, 2009
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chase196126 said:
Having a team doctor on a cycling team is an extremely good idea, in my opinion. A doctor who has a large amount of experience treating cyclists, or any other sport, specifically for years may be able to diagnose issues and correct them in a much more timely manner than going to a local clinic.

For example, while racing an important race in 2011, I was suffering from extreme anxiety stemming from an hugely stressful relationship issue as well as the racing itself. The anxiety was so bad my heart rate was close to or above 100 when resting and I was barely sleeping.

Unfortunately our pro team doctor was not with us at the race, but my coach was a doctor for one of the other teams there. He was able to prescribe me a small amount of anti anxiety and sleep medication to get me through the race. He understood what was going on in my life and the stresses of a professional athlete during competition. Ignoring the fact that during a stage race there is no time to try to visit a local clinic, a local clinic (especially in the US) is going to be extremely guarded when it comes to dispensing a short term anti anxiety medication. They are going to want you to see a psych doctor and will recommend long term medication treatments because they do not have the experience or understanding of the situation that a team doctor has.

And this is your example why it's a good idea to have a team doctor? :(

A good coach would have adviced you to take a step back. Btw, if he had missdiagnozed and your elevated heartrate was due to a virus you could have been in deep, deep trouble.

In your state competing at toplevel competition seems an unwise decision in my opinion.
 
May 26, 2009
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ScienceIsCool said:
Which of those can a doctor, who can't perform injections, be effective in treating?

Crashes - Well, it either requires a plaster and bactine, or a trip to the hospital. The doctor does what besides roadside emergency care?
The flu - Huh. A doctor can do something for that?
Food poisoning - What does a doctor do to treat that? Send to hospital?
A bad cold - Well there's something a good doctor can treat!!
Fatigue - Right. I see my doctor when I'm run down. I don't sleep and/or rest. And by all means don't get a massage.
Tendonitis! - Yes. My doctor treats that by... Hmmm. How does a good doctor treat tendonitis? Do *not* see a sports therapist. They are quacks.
Insomnia - Well here's where a good doctor can finally write a prescription! And maybe a TUE or eight.
Head injury - a good doctor on staff means you don't need a pesky trip to the ER or an MRI. Good save.
Rehydration - for when a glass of water won't do. You need a very good doctor to take care of that.

John Swanson

A fantastic post. Sport (cycling) is simply overmedicated.
 
May 26, 2010
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L'arriviste said:
In a recent interview, Bassons said he had never consulted with a team doctor and preferred to see his family doctor if he had a lingering illness.

He said that if you took care of your body properly and consulted a race doctor if you got sick during a stage race, then there shouldn't be a need to see a dedicated team doctor.

Now Bassons didn't ride in the "days of yore", so I think his view (based on purely physical factors) is an interesting counterpoint to Chase above, even if one could argue that Bassons perhaps enjoyed a stronger physical constitution than most or else he demonstrates a certain naïveté often noted in French riders. ;)

L'arri, are you suggesting Bassons took more than bread and water?

The idea that teams need docs suggests there is more than vitamins being handed out. That a team has 4 docs does not add up to clean racing.
 
Benotti69 said:
L'arri, are you suggesting Bassons took more than bread and water?

The idea that teams need docs suggests there is more than vitamins being handed out. That a team has 4 docs does not add up to clean racing.

No, Bassons was saying that a rider could look after his body himself (not innuendo but as in, watch out for muscular problems, avoid overtraining, recover naturally but properly) and that should be enough even at the top level of the sport.

Or at least it was enough for him anyway. Bassons reckoned he'd never needed to see a team doctor at FDJ.

I think he was talking about the superfluousness of dietary supplements, but as a general statement it did strike me as a refreshingly unscientific approach to wellness. :)
 
May 26, 2010
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L'arriviste said:
No, Bassons was saying that a rider could look after his body himself (not innuendo but as in, watch out for muscular problems, avoid overtraining, recover naturally but properly) and that should be enough even at the top level of the sport.

Or at least it was enough for him anyway. Bassons reckoned he'd never needed to see a team doctor at FDJ.

I think he was talking about the superfluousness of dietary supplements, but as a general statement it did strike me as a refreshingly unscientific approach to wellness. :)

Cheers L'arri. :)