Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[johnymax]

Actually I think he gained all of his seconds on the climb and on the flat in the last 3km. Sure it was Valverde pulling behind, who is also a good descender, but I think Nibali is a little overrated as a descender. He can't make a difference like Sagan for example (well nobody can). Was nice to see him attack today tho. I was expecting this and I'm looking forward to some crazy attacks in the Alps. He is still exciting to watch. Nibs and Sagan are pure racers.

 

[damian13ster]

Showing what a true champion is made of. At least he is attacking and making those attacks count

 

[ray j willings]

Great stuff from Nibs. Good attack, obviously feeling better just a shame its come so late.
bravo

 

[whittashau]

There were straight periods in the descent where various riders pushed the group behind. It wasn't Nibali vs Valverde in a straight up descending battle. It was Valverde, Thomas, Gesink etc all pushing at various periods, gaining time out of corners, and Nibali gaining a second back here and there in corners.

As for Sagan. He gained big time on Plaza who was descending on his own. However, to the group behind he only gained about 10 seconds. So your argument doesn't really stand firm.

To get the best idea of how good each descender is we would really need a downhill ITT

 

[SuperBesse]

Re:

To get the best idea of how good each descender is we would really need a downhill ITT

Well we have the times of the downhill section of the hilly ITT at the '13 tour. Sagan was the best.

 

[Cramps]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Granting the different conditions for each racer, still might be intersting to compare Nibali and Sagan in the descent today.

My timing for the final 10k today was Sagan in 9'20" and Nibali in 9'27"

By my unofficial and probably inaccurate timing, Nibali lost about 5' in the first 5k and about 2' in the final 5k

 

[johnymax]

Re:

There were straight periods in the descent where various riders pushed the group behind. It wasn't Nibali vs Valverde in a straight up descending battle. It was Valverde, Thomas, Gesink etc all pushing at various periods, gaining time out of corners, and Nibali gaining a second back here and there in corners.

As for Sagan. He gained big time on Plaza who was descending on his own. However, to the group behind he only gained about 10 seconds. So your argument doesn't really stand firm.

To get the best idea of how good each descender is we would really need a downhill ITT

If I saw correctly Valverde and Bardet (or it was Gesink, I need to watch again) were in front on the technical part of the descent, where Nibali didn't gain much time. He was gaining seconds when Gesink was the one chasing on the final part of the climb and on the flat part in the last 3km. This is based on the GPS which might had been wrong of course.

Sagan gained about 10 seconds against few riders, correct. But others lost half a minute and more. And is way easier to take the correct lines if you follow wheels.That's why they tried to stay with Sagan as long as they could but finally nobody could. Do you think Pantano would descent the way he did if he wasn' t following Sagan? I doubt it.

Don't get me wrong. I really like Nibali but I just wanted to point out it will be difficult for Nibali to gain 2 minutes on any descent like some have suggested. He is good but still I don't think he is on Sagan's level.

 

[johnymax]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Granting the different conditions for each racer, still might be intersting to compare Nibali and Sagan in the descent today.

My timing for the final 10k today was Sagan in 9'20" and Nibali in 9'27"

By my unofficial and probably inaccurate timing, Nibali lost about 5' in the first 5k and about 2' in the final 5k

Thank you. I wanted to do this. Also I think Sagan lost some seconds in the final, mostly flat part. Nibali was definitely stronger there. Not to mention Sagan was in the break the whole day and he started softpedalling some meters before the line while Nibs was going all out till the line. So it would be a 15 seconds or even more if all things equal.

 

[whittashau]

Descending isn't always about cornering ability though. Sagan can accelerate so much faster out of corners than Nibs. I'm not saying Nibali is a better descender than Sagan (I don't think he is), but that wasn't exactly a descent where Nibali would be able to compete with a sprinter. Nibali would be better in a descent where there are more switch backs and less straights

 

[May0maniac]

I love the old stories about Sagan and Nibali going all out and pushing eachother to the limit on the descents when they trained together durning the Liquigas days, I think the ds told them multiple times to tune it down because it was to dangerous.

 

[ray j willings]

Sagan was more on the limit in the descent. Nibs was smoother. Both great.
If it had rained Nibs would have got at least a minute back maybe more.

 

[jalep]

Great to see Nibs coming back to life. Nice little move to gain a few seconds and have some fun.

Agree Peter is the faster descending - completely different styles. Love watching both of them.

Need some bad weather and good fortune for a stage win. Come on, Lo Squalo

 

[mspgrandi]

Sagan is 10kg heavier than nibali.. he will be faster for sure... I dont think this downhill was so hard...

 

[Brullnux]

Nibali preparing his rain dance for Col d'Allos...
Seriously though, if he managed to take out 30 seconds on an fairly easy, dry descent then how well can he do on Wednesday? Provided he is not dropped on the climb.

Thursday is a possibility for him to do a Courchevel on Froome. Torrential rain + crazy pace from Astana to drop all doms bar Thomas and Porte then force a split in the group by attacking not at max potential but at 50% then get two groups 15 containing him and some other good climbers low on GC with 1 teammate and the second group with 10 with Froome with a couple of other GC guys and teammate. The GC guys won't chase until too late and Nibali can extend the lead to minutes, as not enough man power in second group.

Dream scenario and everything has to go right, but Astana have to try it as it is their best chance to destroy opposition and podium.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Nibali preparing his rain dance for Col d'Allos...
Seriously though, if he managed to take out 30 seconds on an fairly easy, dry descent then how well can he do on Wednesday? Provided he is not dropped on the climb.

To be fair, he didn't take all those 30 seconds on the descent.

 

[Pricey_sky]

Re: Re:

Nibali preparing his rain dance for Col d'Allos...
Seriously though, if he managed to take out 30 seconds on an fairly easy, dry descent then how well can he do on Wednesday? Provided he is not dropped on the climb.

To be fair, he didn't take all those 30 seconds on the descent.

It also helps him that he's 8 minutes down. Nobody is going to chase him even if he gets 1 minute on the descent. He can't match Froome and Quintana on the mountain finishes.

 

[SafeBet]

Re: Re:

Don't get me wrong. I really like Nibali but I just wanted to point out it will be difficult for Nibali to gain 2 minutes on any descent like some have suggested. He is good but still I don't think he is on Sagan's level.

Bardet gained 1'20" on the col d'Allos descent during Dauphiné. I think Sky approach to that descent will be fairly similar to how they did it in Dauphine unless Quintana or Contador attacks. So more than one minute is doable.

 

[fungusbear]

Re:

Sagan is 10kg heavier than nibali.. he will be faster for sure... I dont think this downhill was so hard...

I read somewhere that this descent is actually not that hard at all, it is more the fact that it is a descent finish and a sub par road surface that have resulted in the crashes and time gaps.

 

[IlGrillo]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Do you think that the group will let him go if he attacks on Allos? I'm not so sure. Froome may have a lot of minutes of advantage, but the others can not let "Lo Squalo" gain on or two minutes on them. And I'm not talking about Gesink, but Valverde, Berto and Van Garderen especially.

 

[SeriousSam]

Nibali is a complete non-factor for the yellow jersey. If Froome is smart he lets him go, and let the top 5 pretenders expend the energy to reel him in.

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

I love the old stories about Sagan and Nibali going all out and pushing eachother to the limit on the descents when they trained together durning the Liquigas days, I think the ds told them multiple times to tune it down because it was to dangerous.

Source?

That sounds awesome

 

[IlGrillo]

Re: Re:

I love the old stories about Sagan and Nibali going all out and pushing eachother to the limit on the descents when they trained together durning the Liquigas days, I think the ds told them multiple times to tune it down because it was to dangerous.

Source?

That sounds awesome

The italian EuroSport commentator often talks about Sagan and Nibali on the cross bike.

 

[SafeBet]

Re:

Nibali is a complete non-factor for the yellow jersey. If Froome is smart he lets him go, and let the top 5 pretenders expend the energy to reel him in.

I don't think there's any doubt about that. Sky has been riding smart the whole tour, never wasting energy when not necessary.

 

[46&twoWheels]

If I were Brailsford I would only be concerned about Quintana and Contador and.... with Nibali only if he goes into an early breakaway like he did in the Dauphinè

NIbali gaining 1-2 minutes on the descents is not relevant to sky/froome,but it is to gesink,valverde,even contador..

 

[jalep]

Re:

If I were Brailsford I would only be concerned about Quintana and Contador and.... with Nibali only if he goes into an early breakaway like he did in the Dauphinè

NIbali gaining 1-2 minutes on the descents is not relevant to sky/froome,but it is to gesink,valverde,even contador..

Do you really reckon Nibs is thinking about a podium spot or moving up the ladder with a purpose to beat Gesink, Valverde, or challenge Contador? A stage win would be very good though, fairly unlikely but...

As a fan, I'm happy to see him back to tranquillo, in his element and riding well; whatever comes of it