Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[Pennino]

Re: Re:

TTTs should be banned from cycling. Team events in individual sports suck.

Good thing cycling is a team sport then

No, it is not. Soccer is a team sport. There, it's the team who wins, you don't have an individual world champion as an example. In cycling, it's the individual who wins. If you were asked who had won the first Tour, you would answer with a name of a rider, not of a team.

It's obviously conducted with teams, but that does not make it a team sport.

...

TTTs would be okay in stage races if they were with individual timing, so a rider (like Vino in the Giro'10) wouldn't be handicapped by too slow teammates.

Individual timing? As in who's riding how long at the front? Maybe with the modern techniques that could be some of a solution.

But I really love the discipline. Maybe they just need to reintroduce that maximum time gaps system. 10 seconds per position down the ranking. And some time limit to push every team to the very limit. Still the lovely prestige fight between the top teams but no really damage to anyone (other than the pain, of course). I would love to have a TTT in the morning followed by a short aggressive mountain stage in the afternoon. Let's make those robots have to spit some blood...

 

[Forever The Best]

Re: Re:

TTTs should be banned from cycling. Team events in individual sports suck.

Good thing cycling is a team sport then

No, it is not. Soccer is a team sport. There, it's the team who wins, you don't have an individual world champion as an example. In cycling, it's the individual who wins. If you were asked who had won the first Tour, you would answer with a name of a rider, not of a team.

It's obviously conducted with teams, but that does not make it a team sport.

...

TTTs would be okay in stage races if they were with individual timing, so a rider (like Vino in the Giro'10) wouldn't be handicapped by too slow teammates.

Individual timing? As in who's riding how long at the front? Maybe with the modern techniques that could be some of a solution.

But I really love the discipline. Maybe they just need to reintroduce that maximum time gaps system. 10 seconds per position down the ranking. And some time limit to push every team to the very limit. Still the lovely prestige fight between the top teams but no really damage to anyone (other than the pain, of course). I would love to have a TTT in the morning followed by a short aggressive mountain stage in the afternoon. Let's make those robots have to spit some blood...

And a rider whose team finishes 18th loses 3 minutes already...

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

TTTs should be banned from cycling. Team events in individual sports suck.

Good thing cycling is a team sport then

No, it is not. Soccer is a team sport. There, it's the team who wins, you don't have an individual world champion as an example. In cycling, it's the individual who wins. If you were asked who had won the first Tour, you would answer with a name of a rider, not of a team.

It's obviously conducted with teams, but that does not make it a team sport.

...

TTTs would be okay in stage races if they were with individual timing, so a rider (like Vino in the Giro'10) wouldn't be handicapped by too slow teammates.

Individual timing? As in who's riding how long at the front? Maybe with the modern techniques that could be some of a solution.

But I really love the discipline. Maybe they just need to reintroduce that maximum time gaps system. 10 seconds per position down the ranking. And some time limit to push every team to the very limit. Still the lovely prestige fight between the top teams but no really damage to anyone (other than the pain, of course). I would love to have a TTT in the morning followed by a short aggressive mountain stage in the afternoon. Let's make those robots have to spit some blood...

And a rider whose team finishes 18th loses 3 minutes already...

I think it's just the upper limit, which could always be smaller. But I think TTTs are gimmicks that sooner belong to the hammer series

 

[Valv.Piti]

I think TTT can be pretty exciting in the right setup, but the problem about them is finding the right balance. Generally they are too short to even mean something, but in the past they've been too long and have been eliminating riders on weak teams.

 

[Forever The Best]

@Red Rick Agreed. As a standalone event, cool. But it shouldn't be in GT's.

 

[Pennino]

Re: Re:

TTTs should be banned from cycling. Team events in individual sports suck.

Good thing cycling is a team sport then

No, it is not. Soccer is a team sport. There, it's the team who wins, you don't have an individual world champion as an example. In cycling, it's the individual who wins. If you were asked who had won the first Tour, you would answer with a name of a rider, not of a team.

It's obviously conducted with teams, but that does not make it a team sport.

...

TTTs would be okay in stage races if they were with individual timing, so a rider (like Vino in the Giro'10) wouldn't be handicapped by too slow teammates.

Individual timing? As in who's riding how long at the front? Maybe with the modern techniques that could be some of a solution.

But I really love the discipline. Maybe they just need to reintroduce that maximum time gaps system. 10 seconds per position down the ranking. And some time limit to push every team to the very limit. Still the lovely prestige fight between the top teams but no really damage to anyone (other than the pain, of course). I would love to have a TTT in the morning followed by a short aggressive mountain stage in the afternoon. Let's make those robots have to spit some blood...

And a rider whose team finishes 18th loses 3 minutes already...

Of course if the real gap is smaller, the real gap is in use. But on a good long TTT (>50 km) the number 18 usually loses much more I assume.

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

TTTs should be banned from cycling. Team events in individual sports suck.

Good thing cycling is a team sport then

No, it is not. Soccer is a team sport. There, it's the team who wins, you don't have an individual world champion as an example. In cycling, it's the individual who wins. If you were asked who had won the first Tour, you would answer with a name of a rider, not of a team.

It's obviously conducted with teams, but that does not make it a team sport.

...

TTTs would be okay in stage races if they were with individual timing, so a rider (like Vino in the Giro'10) wouldn't be handicapped by too slow teammates.

Individual timing? As in who's riding how long at the front? Maybe with the modern techniques that could be some of a solution.

But I really love the discipline. Maybe they just need to reintroduce that maximum time gaps system. 10 seconds per position down the ranking. And some time limit to push every team to the very limit. Still the lovely prestige fight between the top teams but no really damage to anyone (other than the pain, of course). I would love to have a TTT in the morning followed by a short aggressive mountain stage in the afternoon. Let's make those robots have to spit some blood...

I meant the rider who crosses the line first gets his own time, not that of the 5th rider. So it's like a team-start-drafting-allowed ITT.

 

[kingjr]

I like TTTs as a standalone race, but they shouldn't be part of a GC competition imo.

 

[Finn84]

TDF had that position-based timing in TTTs 2004-05. But it can be unfair between the riders in the lower positions. Let's look at 2004 top six:

US Postal
Phonak 1'07"
Illes Balears 1'15"
T-Mobile 1'19"
CSC 1'46"
Rabobank 1'53"

The rules stated that Phonak lost 20, IB 30, T-Mobile 40, CSC 50 and Rabobank 60 seconds. While the gaps to the front are smaller, for example Ullrich and Klöden gained 39 seconds on Armstrong, at the same time they lost 8 seconds on Hamilton and 6 seconds on Mancebo. Small numbers but every second can matter.

 

[May0maniac]

Re:

I think TTT can be pretty exciting in the right setup, but the problem about them is finding the right balance. Generally they are too short to even mean something, but in the past they've been too long and have been eliminating riders on weak teams.

If we'd have half stages in gts TTTs could be more interesting, a short hilly stage on te afternoon after having a 20-30km TTT earlier could be really hrd to control.

 

[Alexandre B.]

Re: Re:

I think TTT can be pretty exciting in the right setup, but the problem about them is finding the right balance. Generally they are too short to even mean something, but in the past they've been too long and have been eliminating riders on weak teams.

If we'd have half stages in gts TTTs could be more interesting, a short hilly stage on te afternoon after having a 20-30km TTT earlier could be really hrd to control.

Do it 1990 TDF style. Could be fun games.

 

[May0maniac]

That would be another great option, TTTs as half stages in a gt would add a lot to the race.
The maximum length for a TTT in an U23 stage race is 35km, so why can't we have something like that or just 20-30km as a half stage in a gt?
Limit the amount o half stages that you can have in a gt, but allow them,, banning them is just stupid.

 

[Red Rick]

I know a very good reason

*** TTTs where rich teams get even more advantages than they already have. A short opening TTT is the only thing I can tolerate.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

I know a very good reason

**** TTTs where rich teams get even more advantages than they already have. A short opening TTT is the only thing I can tolerate.

Keep it for the Olympics and Worlds but in pro races a long one is a ridiculous advantage to the rich teams and a short one is meaningless cause the time gaps are so small. I would like to see them can it altogether in grand tours. They could so do much more with prologues and ITTs if they bothered to. The mountain ITT doesn't get enough of a workout either. I would also like to see them mix the distances up more like they used to. Long TTs can actually force more attacks in the mountains. I see nothing wrong with a long TT now and then. If Froome wasn't winning the Tours no one would be complaining about them.

 

[El Pistolero]

Does the audience even care for TTTs? I'm sure the ratings are lower compared to other stages.

 

[Red Rick]

Quoted from Dumoulin's thread

Just saw an interview with Dumoulin where he said that he weighted less than in the Giro, and that it's usually easier for him to be light during the summer than in the spring.

So basically he's the favorite for the Tour next year.

In the same way that Richie was this year.

Though, of course, TD has the potential to be a more complete GC rider than any we've seen since Indurain (or, perhaps, Chris Froome).

Nibali is probably the most complete.

I don't want to get into this discussion here, but in my opinion Nibali is severely overrated as a GC rider.
His results belie his abilities.

Nibali is a very unique rider and a very peculiar case. Of all the arguably 4 great GC riders of the last 5/6 years, he's one of the 2 to win all 3 GTs. He's the only one to podium a monument. But it doesn't stop there, he podium'ed 3 monuments (the 2 hilliest ones and the sprinter one), he got a 4th place in a WCRR where he created the selection after crashing, and he created the winning move in an ORR and would've podiumed guaranteed if not for crashing out. That's not to forget that on the terrain of a 4th monument, the one most opposite to climbers and GC riders, he absolutely recked the field in the Tour de France in dreadful conditions. Apart from being almost useless in a sprint, he's an abslute allround animal.

As for his pure GC abilites, Peak Nibali is almost completely untested. He's shown up like once for an entire GT and annihalated what was left of the field. When he's just ordinary he's still podium material most of the time. If you take into account that he's ridden for GC in 3 GTs since he reached his highest level, (4th after dropping on the first two mountain stages, a Giro win and a Giro 3rd), his actual sample size isn't very big

 

[Forever The Best]

Re:

Quoted from Dumoulin's thread

So basically he's the favorite for the Tour next year.

In the same way that Richie was this year.

Though, of course, TD has the potential to be a more complete GC rider than any we've seen since Indurain (or, perhaps, Chris Froome).

Nibali is probably the most complete.

I don't want to get into this discussion here, but in my opinion Nibali is severely overrated as a GC rider.
His results belie his abilities.

Nibali is a very unique rider and a very peculiar case. Of all the arguably 4 great GC riders of the last 5/6 years, he's one of the 2 to win all 3 GTs. He's the only one to podium a monument. But it doesn't stop there, he podium'ed 3 monuments (the 2 hilliest ones and the sprinter one), he got a 4th place in a WCRR where he created the selection after crashing, and he created the winning move in an ORR and would've podiumed guaranteed if not for crashing out. That's not to forget that on the terrain of a 4th monument, the one most opposite to climbers and GC riders, he absolutely recked the field in the Tour de France in dreadful conditions. Apart from being almost useless in a sprint, he's an abslute allround animal.

As for his pure GC abilites, Peak Nibali is almost completely untested. He's shown up like once for an entire GT and annihalated what was left of the field. When he's just ordinary he's still podium material most of the time. If you take into account that he's ridden for GC in 3 GTs since he reached his highest level, (4th after dropping on the first two mountain stages, a Giro win and a Giro 3rd), his actual sample size isn't very big

+1.
Froome doesn't even have a decent result in monuments. (the closest being a top-15 in Olympics)

 

[Rollthedice]

He actually won Lombardia and podiumed MSR and LBL. But as you say it doesn't stop here. His first WT win was a one day race, GP Plouay, he finished third in Eneco Tour, won other one day classics in his career. Here's a nice vintage video with his win in a junior race in Toscana 2002:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DNkR3KSdsCk

 

[Red Rick]

Lol, clicked on the link to Nibali's first win. What do you know? It was *** weather

 

[movingtarget]

No doubt Nibali is more versatile than anyone else of recent times except for Valverde as far as GT winners go and then probably Evans who only had the one GT win and also won at Fleche and the Worlds. Valverde only had one GT win as well so there are arguments for both sides but while Valverde was much superior in single day races Nibali was the same in GTs not that Froome with four Tour wins and multiple Vuelta podiums probably cares too much nor would Contador although with Contador I'm sure that the missing Tour podium since 2010 is still a source of frustration for him.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Contador and Quintana dont have decent result in classics either. Contador tried a few years at his peak but never got really close in Liege while Quintana just doesn't seem to care, similar to Contador apart from a few years. Thats no shame. I can't fault Kwiatkowski for never being close to win a GT or Kittel to win a proper murito.

 

[SafeBet]

I would argue Major Tom has the potential to be the most complete GT rider we've seen in a long time (yes, more complete than Nibali). At the moment he's yet to prove he's more complete than Nibali at his best though.

I believe Froome is kind of untested in mixed/hilly/rough terrains since the Tour route has lacked this kind of stages in recent years. He never got to the cobbles in 2014. He has never performed in one day races, but the truth is he's never really targeted them.

 

[Summoned]

I thInk there may be another way to look at Nibali in comparison to the other successful GT riders of his era, in that apart from the peak for the 2014 Tour, and arguably the 2013 Giro, Nibali has never looked particularly dominant in a GT. He has been consistently strong in GT's he has targeted, and that makes him fairly unusual, but so have Froome, Contador, and Quintana. What I think distinguishes Nibali is that he does more with less talent/ability than the others. In that way, I think an argument could be made that he has the best understanding of how to ride GT's successfully of the major GT contenders. Not necessarily the most intelligent of the contenders, though I think that argument could be made, but the one who has applied the talent he has to the best advantage.

 

[bob.a.feet]

Re:

He actually won Lombardia and podiumed MSR and LBL. But as you say it doesn't stop here. His first WT win was a one day race, GP Plouay, he finished third in Eneco Tour, won other one day classics in his career. Here's a nice vintage video with his win in a junior race in Toscana 2002:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DNkR3KSdsCk

I love watching clips of Pros when they were younger and they still have the same riding style.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Re:

I would argue Major Tom has the potential to be the most complete GT rider we've seen in a long time (yes, more complete than Nibali). At the moment he's yet to prove he's more complete than Nibali at his best though.

I believe Froome is kind of untested in mixed/hilly/rough terrains since the Tour route has lacked this kind of stages in recent years. He never got to the cobbles in 2014. He has never performed in one day races, but the truth is he's never really targeted them.

He did target the ORR 2016 and the WC in Florence but failed miserably. I think he also has targeted the LBL but again no result. Comparatively Nibali did pretty well