Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

Page 90 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
May 28, 2012
2,779
0
0
whittashau said:
But Wiggo had career best numbers, and Ryder looked to be in amazing form. Ryder clearly went too-deep during the ITT, and Wiggo clearly psyched himself out which was partly Nibali's doing.
None of this is true.

Wiggins was never in contention for pink. Why? Because he was struggling with himself, not his competition. He wasn't mentally prepared to keep up with the peloton in such hard weather. Hesjedal was cooked before the long time trial.

Nibs gets too much credit for 'beating' Wiggins here, in sunny weather Nibali presumably would've been toast. But that's part of the Giro, and especially this edition. It hasn't been about beating your closest opponents, it was about staying healthy and upright.

Nibali's one of those riders who's very consistent no matter the severity of the conditions thrown at them. I give him credit for having the best fitness in this kind of meteorologic mayhem, not for having beaten the other pre-race favourites and outsiders.

Vincenzo deserves the win completely of course, but the actual performance doesn't necessarily translate into winning the next GT he takes part in. Next time around, the factors and variables deciding between a DNF and winning could be completely different.
 
Pentacycle said:
None of this is true.

Wiggins was never in contention for pink. Why? Because he was struggling with himself, not his competition. He wasn't mentally prepared to keep up with the peloton in such hard weather. Hesjedal was cooked before the long time trial.

Nibs gets too much credit for 'beating' Wiggins here, in sunny weather Nibali presumably would've been toast. But that's part of the Giro, and especially this edition. It hasn't been about beating your closest opponents, it was about staying healthy and upright.

Nibali's one of those riders who's very consistent no matter the severity of the conditions thrown at them. I give him credit for having the best fitness in this kind of meteorologic mayhem, not for having beaten the other pre-race favourites and outsiders.

Vincenzo deserves the win completely of course, but the actual performance doesn't necessarily translate into winning the next GT he takes part in. Next time around, the factors and variables deciding between a DNF and winning could be completely different.
Nibali destroyed the field, and he won because he HAS BEATEN other pre-race favourites and outsiders.

If that wasn't the case, he wouldn't be in Maglia Rosa.
Last year he was beaten at the Tour by Wiggins and Froome.
With your reasoning he would have been beaten just because it was sunny and we had 100 km of flatty TT, but that's not the case.

I think we're gonna see a clash next year at the Tour maybe with Contador and Froome too, let's see if he can beat them (again, since he did that this year too).
 
whittashau said:
But Wiggo had career best numbers, and Ryder looked to be in amazing form. Ryder clearly went too-deep during the ITT, and Wiggo clearly psyched himself out which was partly Nibali's doing.
Going to deep in the tt? Would not cause the effects we saw on Hejsedal.

neither Ryder nor wiggins were on form. However Nibali was amazing. He certainly would have beaten Hejsedal even if Ryder had been in the form of his life and I don't think a 100% wiggins would have managed either.

That said one can't take the limp performances those guys were giving and say it proves Nibali beat them on form. That's just silly.
 
May 28, 2012
2,779
0
0
Climbing said:
Nibali destroyed the field, and he won because he HAS BEATEN other pre-race favourites and outsiders.

If that wasn't the case, he wouldn't be in Maglia Rosa.
Last year he was beaten at the Tour by Wiggins and Froome.
With your reasoning he would have been beaten just because it was sunny and we had 100 km of flatty TT, but that's not the case.
Correction: He destroyed what was left of the field. The rest had been beaten by complete self-induced failure or by illness. If Nibali had DNF'ed the 2012 Tour because of an illness or crash, on the first stage, Froome and Wiggins would have beaten him in exactly the same way as they actually did. By your logic.

I think we're gonna see a clash next year at the Tour maybe with Contador and Froome too, let's see if he can beat them (again, since he did that this year too).
This year Nibali beat Froome and Contador once in TA. In Oman and San Luis, it was completely the other way around. As soon as the peloton started riding in Europe, the weather complete changed in favour of the Sicilian, and it's constantly turned out in Nibali's favour. There might be a correlation between average temperature/precipitation and Nibali's results. Negative for a temperature rise, positive with more rainfall.
 
Sep 2, 2010
1,853
0
0
The Hitch said:
Going to deep in the tt? Would not cause the effects we saw on Hejsedal.

neither Ryder nor wiggins were on form. However Nibali was amazing. He certainly would have beaten Hejsedal even if Ryder had been in the form of his life and I don't think a 100% wiggins would have managed either.
Hey, I wouldn't argue with you when it comes to Wiggins, but he was the one who kept harping on about how good his form was. Plus Ryder seemed to be in great form both coming into the race and in the early stages. I read something from JV saying that he thinks he might have come into the race too skinny which lessened his recovery. So literally I'm going on what the riders themselves, or what their DS' have said.
 
May 4, 2013
227
0
0
What this Giro reveals about Wiggins is that he is not good in bad weather, descending on wet roads, and is still in my mind a fair weather GT rider&the GT needs lots of km's for him. So as far as well rounded GT riders go,he has a weakness and it cannot be said, unless simply an opinion, that Wiggins is a better GT rider than Nibali - it would depend on the course. Wiggins is simply better in long TT's.

But, Wiggins saw the course and still thought he could win, otherwise is it not doubtful that he would have rode? Wiggins was not about to fight it out for a podium spot or anything less than numero uno,in pink, holding the Trophy. So I agree that Wiggins excused himself more than we got to see him straight up beaten on the road and in the MTT. It is too bad Wiggins could not stay in the race like others did.

Whatever the case with Wiggo, it does not detract from Nibali's win, imo. The situation only makes me think Nibali is the best in this Giro-he mastered the weather and what Wiggins and Hesjedal could not.
 
Sep 2, 2010
1,853
0
0
Pentacycle said:
None of this is true.

Wiggins was never in contention for pink. Why? Because he was struggling with himself, not his competition. He wasn't mentally prepared to keep up with the peloton in such hard weather. Hesjedal was cooked before the long time trial.

Nibs gets too much credit for 'beating' Wiggins here, in sunny weather Nibali presumably would've been toast. But that's part of the Giro, and especially this edition. It hasn't been about beating your closest opponents, it was about staying healthy and upright.
Why would sunny weather have made a difference? He still would have struggled to keep upright on the technical descents if the weather was fine. And since when does Wiggo go well on steep climbs? Nibbles put him into difficulty a few times during last years Tour, so I'm sure without Froome and on the steeper climbs, and given Nibali's amazing form that Wiggins would have struggled.

And It was often Astana and Nibali who often put the hammer down during the rain which put Bradley in difficulty which was exacerbated by his weak handling skills/mind.
 
Pentacycle said:
Correction: He destroyed what was left of the field. The rest had been beaten by complete self-induced failure or by illness. If Nibali had DNF'ed the 2012 Tour because of an illness or crash, on the first stage, Froome and Wiggins would have beaten him in exactly the same way as they actually did. By your logic.

This is my point, when you win you win and end of the story (when you lose you lose too ofc).

This year Nibali beat Froome and Contador once in TA. In Oman and San Luis, it was completely the other way around. As soon as the peloton started riding in Europe, the weather complete changed in favour of the Sicilian, and it's constantly turned out in Nibali's favour. There might be a correlation between average temperature/precipitation and Nibali's results. Negative for a temperature rise, positive with more rainfall.
Yes, Froome and Contador have beaten Nibali in Oman and San Luis, I didn't say that Nibali won every encounter, but simply that he beat them already.
But whatever, they have prepared different races this year and peaked for different periods, so I wouldn't trace a definite conclusion.

And the weather is there for everyone, not being able to deal with it, well it's clearly a learn to ride issue.

The old say goes like "I've never beated a healty opponent", I think fits perfectly here.
 

airstream

BANNED
Mar 29, 2011
5,123
0
0
I totally agree with PentaCycle. Nibali and Wiggins/Hesjedal is like Contador and Froome is the Vuelta last year. Froome didn't lose to Contador that race. He lost it to his tiredness which caught him entirely in the third week. He would have cracked on that race regardless the opponents because in the end he had huge difficulties even to keep up with Talansky's, Gesink's and Anton's group, not to mention about big trio. It works for Wiggo and Ryder too. They lost the ground because of unfortunate circumstances, not because of Nibali.
 
airstream said:
I totally agree with PentaCycle. Nibali and Wiggins/Hesjedal is like Contador and Froome is the Vuelta last year. Froome didn't lose to Contador that race. He lost it to his tiredness which caught him entirely in the third week. He would have cracked on that race regardless the opponents because in the end he had huge difficulties even to keep up with Talansky's, Gesink's and Anton's group, not to mention about big trio. It works for Wiggo and Ryder too. They lost the ground because of unfortunate circumstances, not because of Nibali.
Not every contender can be in perfect peaked form entering GTs, it always happens to have bad luck, tiredness or whatever... in the end they are beated nonetheless.

With your logic we can conclude that Wiggo and Froome were extremely lucky to have good weather last year TdF, otherwise Nibali would have won.

Should we run cycling races inside gyms with powermeters?
Numbers are not everything.
 

airstream

BANNED
Mar 29, 2011
5,123
0
0
Climbing said:
Not every contender can be in perfect peaked form entering GTs, it always happens to have bad luck, tiredness or whatever... in the end they are beated nonetheless.

With your logic we can conclude that Wiggo and Froome were extremely lucky to have good weather last year TdF, otherwise Nibali would have won.

Should we run cycling races inside gyms with powermeters?
Numbers are not everything.
Wiggins was ill in the stage 4 yet. If you really think that healthy Wiggins can drop from a 40 guy pack that was riding quite softly, I don't know...

Your comparison is irrelevant because the 12 Tour was the best Nibali's GT until this Giro. I don't use a term 'luck'. Sickness is an absolutely uncontrollable factor.
 
May 28, 2012
2,779
0
0
whittashau said:
Why would sunny weather have made a difference? He still would have struggled to keep upright on the technical descents if the weather was fine. And since when does Wiggo go well on steep climbs? Nibbles put him into difficulty a few times during last years Tour, so I'm sure without Froome and on the steeper climbs, and given Nibali's amazing form that Wiggins would have struggled.

And It was often Astana and Nibali who often put the hammer down during the rain which put Bradley in difficulty which was exacerbated by his weak handling skills/mind.
The truth is we'll never know what Wiggins could've done under other circumstances.

If you take last year's Tour as a reference Nibali's exactly on par with Wiggins uphill. Only Froome really distanced Wiggins.

Take Angliru 2011 as an example, and Nibali's even worse on steep climbs than Wiggins, not taking into account the actual fitness of both riders. But that's exactly what you do; you act like all favourites entering a GT are automatically rivals on the same level, while that's just a small part of a good performance. The most important aspect is to keep yourself in good physical and mental health, which has almost nothing to do with your opponents.

Nibali was the only one who was able to keep himself together, especially mentally. He was never bothered by Wiggins or any other rival in particular, he just had to resist the weather and stay focused on delivering the best performances he could. Nibs didn't care about the result, he cared about keeping himself together.

Focusing on a result, and expressing expectations about your final GC are the worst things you can do.
 
airstream said:
Wiggins was ill in the stage 4 yet. If you really think that healthy Wiggins can drop from a 40 guy pack that was riding quite softly, I don't know...

Your comparison is irrelevant because the 12 Tour was the best Nibali's GT until this Giro. I don't use a term 'luck'. Sickness is an absolutely uncontrollable factor.
Sickness is uncontrollable?
 

airstream

BANNED
Mar 29, 2011
5,123
0
0
Carols said:
Yep and Wiggins was touting himself for a Giro/Tour double...LOL! Guess he's learned win the first one before you consider talking about the second.
Omg, hell right!!! The Tour winner is not entitled to say that he will try to do the double. The reason? He is Wiggins. :rolleyes:
 
May 28, 2012
2,779
0
0
airstream said:
Omg, hell right!!! The Tour winner is not entitled to say that he will try to do the double. The reason? He is Wiggins. :rolleyes:
He was entitled to do so, but it isn't a very easy mental position to maintain, when you're trying to fight rain and cold only a few days in your season's most important three month period. (stages 4 and beyond)

He was randomly fighting all kinds of dilemma's in his mind. Was he going to risk all to win this Giro while not feeling well, or would he try to recover in time for July? Would he even gain enough in the TT? Did he have the appropriate preparation to do the Giro-Tour double? Should he have shaved off his sideburns? Was he going to recover from his illness? Did he dare to ask more of his teammates while clearly suffering at an easy pace? What will Froome think of this poor showing? Or his opponents? (and many other possible thoughts)

Try focusing on the more important things you should do in a race, like steering and going deep, while you are stressed out by factors you shouldn't at all be bothered by.

Nibali was clearly free of this burden, and as he's also said he's not being buried in expectations by the Astana management. The expectations came when he had the Maglia Rosa, only to find out the real battle was already over.
 
Apr 20, 2012
6,321
0
0
airstream said:
I totally agree with PentaCycle. Nibali and Wiggins/Hesjedal is like Contador and Froome is the Vuelta last year. Froome didn't lose to Contador that race. He lost it to his tiredness which caught him entirely in the third week. He would have cracked on that race regardless the opponents because in the end he had huge difficulties even to keep up with Talansky's, Gesink's and Anton's group, not to mention about big trio. It works for Wiggo and Ryder too. They lost the ground because of unfortunate circumstances, not because of Nibali.
Them dropping even more weight to be able to compete with Nibali on the steep Italian mountains is not a reason for their retreat/illness?

In the end Nibali has won a very disappointing Giro with no real mountainstages.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY

TRENDING THREADS