Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[pink_jersey]

Stop all the bag nonsense, he'll fill yours too when he come back. Suddenly had the urge to rewatch all his big wins - and some losses - today (I skipped 2014 Tour though), and boy isn't Vincenzo a champion? San Remo will always be my favorite, along with that Mosquera time, but I have to admit the Angliru showdown with Horner which was not pleasing when live is kind of funny now.

LBL 2012 is still hurting me. I still think the physique-wise, his peak was between 2012-2014. Good shape all year and just super reliable in all races. And his 2012 is somewhat underrated due to him being unable to break the best Sky team ever in TdF.

 

[Red Rick]

LBL 2012 is still hurting me. I still think the physique-wise, his peak was between 2012-2014. Good shape all year and just super reliable in all races. And his 2012 is somewhat underrated due to him being unable to break the best Sky team ever in TdF.

2015 he was super strong at times as well he just suffered from a crash in the Tour before being one of the best in the Alps and sacrificing his Vuelta for the memes.

Imagine that ridiculous Astana team that broke Dumoulin on a 6% climb and then remember Nibali was taken out of that.

 

[SafeBet]

Angliru 2013 is definitely one of my top10 Nibali moments of all time, regardless of the final result.

 

[Red Rick]

Angliru 2013 is definitely one of my top10 Nibali moments of all time, regardless of the final result.

Went down proper swinging

 

[Gigs_98]

Angliru 2013 is the race I would point to if I had to explain why I like Nibali as a gc rider so much. What I hate more than anything is riders with only a small chance of winning behaving like they have no chance at all.
Nibali clearly wasn't climbing as well as Horner that race and was already trailing him by a few seconds. He didn't expect he could just ride him off his wheel so he attacks at a spot where Horner didn't expect it yet and would actually have to close a gap. He closes the gap anyway, Nibali is already on his limit, f#ck that he attacks again. Horner is closing the gap again, it's at this point 99.9% clear he can't drop Horner that day, f#ck that even more, what about the 0.1%, let's accelerate again.

Seriously, I don't think I have ever seen a rider so desperate to drop someone. Don't think there is a better example of a rider who you can visually see goes so much deeper than he should actually be able to. That climb was pure fighting spirit by Nibali.

It would be easy to point at someone like Bardet or Uran and say "see, they could have tried more going for a gt win" but I honestly feel you could point to pretty much everyone except Contador and do the same. Froome in particular. As great as he was, and although he ended up getting his big gt comeback win in 2018 there are two examples in particular where I felt like he just didn't ride solely for the win. In 2014 when he made one huge attack and then just rode his pace on the mtf's Contador ended up winning, he couldn't possibly have thought that was the best way to gain enough time, right? And then two years later it was very similar when he started to attack Quintana on like the last 3 or 4 km of stage 20 or something. He really needed to gain a big chunk of time yet attacked so late that he likely wouldn't have gained enough, even if Quintana had had a bad day.

That's where Nibali is usually very different. Even 3 years later when he got 2nd in the Vuelta again with another Angliru stage on day 20, he again knew that he couldn't win that race by just outclimbing Froome, so he attacked twice on a wet descent, in one case leading to a crash that basically closed the chapter "Vuelta win". But anyway, he attacked at the point where he had to attack if he wanted any chance left to win the whole thing and that's just something I really admire.

 

[Red Rick]

Angliru 2013 is the race I would point to if I had to explain why I like Nibali as a gc rider so much. What I hate more than anything is riders with only a small chance of winning behaving like they have no chance at all.
Nibali clearly wasn't climbing as well as Horner that race and was already trailing him by a few seconds. He didn't expect he could just ride him off his wheel so he attacks at a spot where Horner didn't expect it yet and would actually have to close a gap. He closes the gap anyway, Nibali is already on his limit, f#ck that he attacks again. Horner is closing the gap again, it's at this point 99.9% clear he can't drop Horner that day, f#ck that even more, what about the 0.1%, let's accelerate again.

Seriously, I don't think I have ever seen a rider so desperate to drop someone. Don't think there is a better example of a rider who you can visually see goes so much deeper than he should actually be able to. That climb was pure fighting spirit by Nibali.

It would be easy to point at someone like Bardet or Uran and say "see, they could have tried more going for a gt win" but I honestly feel you could point to pretty much everyone except Contador and do the same. Froome in particular. As great as he was, and although he ended up getting his big gt comeback win in 2018 there are two examples in particular where I felt like he just didn't ride solely for the win. In 2014 when he made one huge attack and then just rode his pace on the mtf's Contador ended up winning, he couldn't possibly have thought that was the best way to gain enough time, right? And then two years later it was very similar when he started to attack Quintana on like the last 3 or 4 km of stage 20 or something. He really needed to gain a big chunk of time yet attacked so late that he likely wouldn't have gained enough, even if Quintana had had a bad day.

That's where Nibali is usually very different. Even 3 years later when he got 2nd in the Vuelta again with another Angliru stage on day 20, he again knew that he couldn't win that race by just outclimbing Froome, so he attacked twice on a wet descent, in one case leading to a crash that basically closed the chapter "Vuelta win". But anyway, he attacked at the point where he had to attack if he wanted any chance left to win the whole thing and that's just something I really admire.

One of my lowkey favorite Nibali moments is where he goes ballistic on Madonna del Ghisallo to drop Gilbert in Il Lombardia only to be solo with 50km to go and go nowhere cause back then the Lombardia route was ***. A lot of early moments were where he was that guy trying to follow Contador/Schleck before inevitable hilarious blow up.

 

[Gigs_98]

One of my lowkey favorite Nibali moments is where he goes ballistic on Madonna del Ghisallo to drop Gilbert in Il Lombardia only to be solo with 50km to go and go nowhere cause back then the Lombardia route was ***.

Right move to go on Ghisallo. Otherwise there is no way he could have beaten the almighty Oliver Zaugg. Still confused by that race.

That aside, it's actually interesting how the Lombardia route changing has changed our perception of Nibali as a one day racer. If you take Il Lombardia aside Nibali's performances in one day races pre 2015 have actually been at least as good as afterwards. He got that MSR win in 2018, but I think that's more due to things falling into place for him than him actually being stronger than in 2012 for example. It does make you wonder if Nibali could have won a lot more monuments if Lombardia hadn't been completely f*cked by a horrible route for the majority of his prime.

 

[Red Rick]

Right move to go on Ghisallo. Otherwise there is no way he could have beaten the almighty Oliver Zaugg. Still confused by that race.

That aside, it's actually interesting how the Lombardia route changing has changed our perception of Nibali as a one day racer. If you take Il Lombardia aside Nibali's performances in one day races pre 2015 have actually been at least as good as afterwards. He got that MSR win in 2018, but I think that's more due to things falling into place for him than him actually being stronger than in 2012 for example. It does make you wonder if Nibali could have won a lot more monuments if Lombardia hadn't been completely f*cked by a horrible route for the majority of his prime.

Imagine LBL 2012 without Saint Nicolas/Ans

I recently looked at the old routes and it was even worse, with Villa Virgano being really easy until a 15% section in the final km.

I really wish there were more one day races for climbers. One days are so much more versatile than stage races, I wish we'd stack the calendar with that in the 2nd half of the season instead of Ganzhou or wherever the uck they're going.

 

[roundabout]

Nibali has better results in Sanremo than LBL, so let's not use the route as an excuse.

If it was only the route, he would have been closer in 2012 and would have thought for a win in 2010 in allegedly Nibali weather instead of being beaten by Pablo Lastras.

 

[Red Rick]

Nibali has better results in Sanremo than LBL, so let's not use the route as an excuse.

If it was only the route, he would have been closer in 2012 and would have thought for a win in 2010 in allegedly Nibali weather instead of being beaten by Pablo Lastras.

Nibs has religiously ridden MSR every year, whereas he's actually only tryharded Liege very few times. Results in specific one day races can be very stochastic.

 

[Gigs_98]

Imagine LBL 2012 without Saint Nicolas/Ans

I recently looked at the old routes and it was even worse, with Villa Virgano being really easy until a 15% section in the final km.

I really wish there were more one day races for climbers. One days are so much more versatile than stage races, I wish we'd stack the calendar with that in the 2nd half of the season instead of Ganzhou or wherever the uck they're going.

Those routes to Lecco were horrible, but still not as bad as the 2014 abomination. He then certainly profited a lot from the difficulty of the post 2015 routes but even the old Como routes before 2011 would have been so much better for Nibali.

 

[roundabout]

Angliru 2013 is the race I would point to if I had to explain why I like Nibali as a gc rider so much. What I hate more than anything is riders with only a small chance of winning behaving like they have no chance at all.
Nibali clearly wasn't climbing as well as Horner that race and was already trailing him by a few seconds. He didn't expect he could just ride him off his wheel so he attacks at a spot where Horner didn't expect it yet and would actually have to close a gap. He closes the gap anyway, Nibali is already on his limit, f#ck that he attacks again. Horner is closing the gap again, it's at this point 99.9% clear he can't drop Horner that day, f#ck that even more, what about the 0.1%, let's accelerate again.

Seriously, I don't think I have ever seen a rider so desperate to drop someone. Don't think there is a better example of a rider who you can visually see goes so much deeper than he should actually be able to. That climb was pure fighting spirit by Nibali.

It would be easy to point at someone like Bardet or Uran and say "see, they could have tried more going for a gt win" but I honestly feel you could point to pretty much everyone except Contador and do the same. Froome in particular. As great as he was, and although he ended up getting his big gt comeback win in 2018 there are two examples in particular where I felt like he just didn't ride solely for the win. In 2014 when he made one huge attack and then just rode his pace on the mtf's Contador ended up winning, he couldn't possibly have thought that was the best way to gain enough time, right? And then two years later it was very similar when he started to attack Quintana on like the last 3 or 4 km of stage 20 or something. He really needed to gain a big chunk of time yet attacked so late that he likely wouldn't have gained enough, even if Quintana had had a bad day.

That's where Nibali is usually very different. Even 3 years later when he got 2nd in the Vuelta again with another Angliru stage on day 20, he again knew that he couldn't win that race by just outclimbing Froome, so he attacked twice on a wet descent, in one case leading to a crash that basically closed the chapter "Vuelta win". But anyway, he attacked at the point where he had to attack if he wanted any chance left to win the whole thing and that's just something I really admire.

Nibali was 3 seconds behind. And Angliru is different to Penas Cabargas, Narancos, Formigals and wherever else Horner was pinching seconds on.

But 10/10 for the heroic spin.

 

[Red Rick]

Those routes to Lecco were horrible, but still not as bad as the 2014 abomination. He then certainly profited a lot from the difficulty of the post 2015 routes but even the old Como routes before 2011 would have been so much better for Nibali.

Pretty much. Not sure he'd be a huge favorite in those days though cause he wasn't as good in one days as he would later be.

 

[roundabout]

Nibs has religiously ridden MSR every year, whereas he's actually only tryharded Liege very few times. Results in specific one day races can be very stochastic.

Yes, yes, yes. The typical line that he wasn't trying hard when he did not get the results. Nibali rode 13/15 Lieges in the last 15 years and 10 Sanremos. Why would he try harder on a route that suits him less just because it's in Italy is a bit beyond me though.

 

[Red Rick]

Yes, yes, yes. The typical line that he wasn't trying hard when he did not get the results. Nibali rode 13/15 Lieges in the last 15 years and 10 Sanremos. Why would he try harder on a route that suits him less just because it's in Italy is a bit beyond me though.

Giro prep

It's also just extremely dumb to pretend results correlate 1:1 with suitability when results can vary extremely for a total nonsprinter, and I'm merely stating that the new route would suit him better than the old one.

 

[Bolder]

I really wish there were more one day races for climbers. One days are so much more versatile than stage races, I wish we'd stack the calendar with that in the 2nd half of the season instead of Ganzhou or wherever the uck they're going.

This is one of my pet peeves. But there's probably a good reason why there aren't more. Probably because the climbers already have the GTs plus about a half dozen high profile shorter stage races with multiple chances to shine.

 

[Red Rick]

This is one of my pet peeves. But there's probably a good reason why there aren't more. Probably because the climbers already have the GTs plus about a half dozen high profile shorter stage races with multiple chances to shine.

There's basically nothing for climbers after the Tour except if they go to the Vuelta or an outside shot at Lombardia.

Similarly I think rouleurs don't get a lot of cool races after the cobbled season unless they're sprinters.

 

[roundabout]

Giro prep

It's also just extremely dumb to pretend results correlate 1:1 with suitability when results can vary extremely for a total nonsprinter, and I'm merely stating that the new route would suit him better than the old one.

Nibali could win Trentino and then the Giro after but failed in Liege. Question, did he try hard there or not?

 

[Red Rick]

Nibali could win Trentino and then the Giro after but failed in Liege. Question, did he try hard there or not?

Quick, who's the last Giro contender to win Liege?

 

[Gigs_98]

Quick, who's the last Giro contender to win Liege?

Just checked it and if I didn't overlook anything its Vino in 2010. In fact Vino is the last rider to win LBL to even ride the Giro afterwards. That's honestly insane.

About Nibali winning Trentino before not being up there in LBL. Almost everyone who rides Trentino uses it as giro preparation meaning that, if the claim is "riders going to the giro don't perform well in LBL", winning Trentino tells us absolutely nothing about whether that claim is correct.

 

[HelloDolly]

I will always love Nibali because he won even when he was not the strongest climber
or the fastest to the line

Its easy to win when you are the strongest . It takes guts when you are not

 

[TourOfSardinia]

I will always love Nibali because he won even when he was not the strongest climber
or the fastest to the line

Its easy to win when you are the strongest . It takes guts when you are not

No opportunity however brief
Regrets
Time that once most gentle thief;

 

[roundabout]

Quick, who's the last Giro contender to win Liege?

i see that you did not answer the question, but went off on another tangent

let's try again

why would Nibali go to Liege 2 days after finishing Trentino if not to get the best possible result? going to Liege and back is hardly super prep and all preparation work is done well before

 

[Red Rick]

i see that you did not answer the question, but went off on another tangent

let's try again

why would Nibali go to Liege 2 days after finishing Trentino if not to get the best possible result? going to Liege and back is hardly super prep and all preparation work is done well before

You can try to get a result without being optimally prepared.

 

[roundabout]

Just checked it and if I didn't overlook anything its Vino in 2010. In fact Vino is the last rider to win LBL to even ride the Giro afterwards. That's honestly insane.

About Nibali winning Trentino before not being up there in LBL. Almost everyone who rides Trentino uses it as giro preparation meaning that, if the claim is "riders going to the giro don't perform well in LBL", winning Trentino tells us absolutely nothing about whether that claim is correct.

yes, yes, yes. it tells nothing.

Pozzovivo

2 Trentino - 5 Liege - 5 Giro
3 Trentino -12 Liege - 6 Giro
7 Trentino - 63 Liege - 20 Giro
7 Trentino - 8 Liege - DNF
2 Trentino - 5 Liege - 5 Giro

also, let's be real here, apart from 2012, there isn't really a significant difference in Nibali's Liege results whether he was going to the Giro after or not.

8 Liege - 2 Giro
32 Liege - no Giro
51 Liege - 1 Giro
12 Liege - no Giro
30 Liege - no Giro
23 Liege - 1 Giro
2 Liege - no Giro
8 Liege - 2 Giro
28 Liege - 3 Giro
39 Liege - no Giro
10 Liege - 11 Giro