Vino bought the 2010 LBL?

[fasthill]

But the e-mails state that Kolobnev sacrificed his chances for victory for $100K...

If you mean this: "If it had been someone else in your place there, I would have gone for the win, glory and bonus (I have this in my contract for the classics). That day I felt stronger than ever." then you're reading your conclusion into the quote. The quote itself could mean a lot of different things, that's the problem with quoting stuff out of context (if there was any in this instance).

For example, assuming they've agreed to work together earlier, the quote could have been interpreted to mean that he was stuck with Vino and had to work with him until the very end as opposed to try something else like attacking him. This possiblity is as good as the other one but of course you prefer the one where Vino gets nuked for good

 

[El Pistolero]

If you mean this: "If it had been someone else in your place there, I would have gone for the win, glory and bonus (I have this in my contract for the classics). That day I felt stronger than ever." then you're reading your conclusion into the quote. The quote itself could mean a lot of different things, that's the problem with quoting stuff out of context (if there was any in this instance).

For example, assuming they've agreed to work together earlier, the quote could have been interpreted to mean that he was stuck with Vino and had to work with him until the very end as opposed to try something else like attacking him. This possiblity is as good as the other one but of course you prefer the one where Vino gets nuked for good

Because Kolobnev didn't need to attack Vino, he's faster

Complain about Vino's reputation all you want, but he's the only one responsible for having such a bad reputation.

 

[fasthill]

Complain about Vino's reputation all you want, but he's the only one responsible for having such a bad reputation.

True. Although there's an element of self righteous hysteria that follows him around since his come back and it got worse after that Liege win.

 

[fasthill]

Because Kolobnev didn't need to attack Vino, he's faster

In bike racing, you just never know what can happen on a last hill after almost 7h of racing. Kolobnev, of all people, should know that, he's been 2nd too many times

 

[El Pistolero]

In bike racing, you just never know what can happen on a last hill after almost 7h of racing. Kolobnev, of all people, should know that, he's been 2nd too many times

Yeah, second because he won the group sprint behind the winner who went solo.

My point is you said Kolobnev could have attacked instead of staying with Vino. But that's not true, as both of them knew Kolobnev was faster. Staying with Vino was the best tactic he could employ.

 

[OJ....]

I for one do not want investigation into this. Those in position and possession of needed knowledge, to investigate, have far bigger and more important work to do. This would just be the same as picking and choosing doped riders to get roasted in public....would not fix a thing.

So what about agreements within a team? They're against the letter of the rule as well and I know for a fact that riders have been punished for this.

El Pistolero -> I don't know you at all, but do you race or have you ever raced in road cycling?

 

[El Pistolero]

I for one do not want investigation into this. Those in position and possession of needed knowledge, to investigate, have far bigger and more important work to do. This would just be the same as picking and choosing doped riders to get roasted in public....would not fix a thing.

So what about agreements within a team? They're against the letter of the rule as well and I know for a fact that riders have been punished for this.

El Pistolero -> I don't know you at all, but do you race or have you ever raced in road cycling?

So just because something happens a lot we should let it go?

Well then, I hope they don't investigate Kolobnev's doping case and he gets free. And while we're at it, legalize doping because apparently it's ok to cheat because it happens a lot. And everything that happens in Kermis koersen should also be allowed at big cycling races

To make it clear: Kolobnev accepted money to lose a race if we can believe the e-mails. That's something different than accepting money to co-operate in a breakaway and the winner pays the one that got second.

 

[jens_attacks]

Well then, I hope they don't investigate Kolobnev's doping case and he gets free. And while we're at it, legalize doping because apparently it's ok to cheat because it happens a lot. And everything that happens in Kermis koersen should also be allowed at big cycling races

for how long did i say this?6,7,ten years?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

True. Although there's an element of self righteous hysteria that follows him around since his come back and it got worse after that Liege win.

A lot of straw has been made in this thread.

It is not "self righteous hysteria" to point out the facts that Vino was a doper who has returned in a short period to almost the exact level he was before he was busted and that he has to pay a lot of money to ensure this win.

Its not hysteria, it is what it is.

I for one do not want investigation into this. Those in position and possession of needed knowledge, to investigate, have far bigger and more important work to do. This would just be the same as picking and choosing doped riders to get roasted in public....would not fix a thing.

So what about agreements within a team? They're against the letter of the rule as well and I know for a fact that riders have been punished for this.

El Pistolero -> I don't know you at all, but do you race or have you ever raced in road cycling?

You will get your wish.
The UCI statement was not a statement of intent, it was an obituary - here lies the start and end of the investigation.

As to your final paragraph to El Pistolero - if he says no, tell him he doesn't know what he is talking about, if he says yes ask him if he ever gave/received 100k for a win, if yes, he is a hypocrite, if no then say he is not a real cyclist blah blah blah.

 

[OJ....]

So just because something happens a lot we should let it go?

Well then, I hope they don't investigate Kolobnev's doping case and he gets free. And while we're at it, legalize doping because apparently it's ok to cheat because it happens a lot. And everything that happens in Kermis koersen should also be allowed at big cycling races

To make it clear: Kolobnev accepted money to lose a race if we can believe the e-mails. That's something different than accepting money to co-operate in a breakaway and the winner pays the one that got second.

You know more about this specific case as I do. Maybe it was Kolobnev who initiated the whole thing because he wasn't feeling that fresh, but thought to try a bluff with Vino and it worked. There's always the poker aspect in bike racing and while Kolobnev might have held on to his ace bit longer in other races while racing for the 2nd or 3rd and been able to play that card in the sprint against tired men, he had to play that card in the km's before the sprint to stay away with Vino. It's crystal clear that they had an agreement. I don't care of how much money changed or didn't change hands, as it is irelevant here, as the agreement was made and the agreement is against the letter of the rule.

If you go on and roast Vino and Kolobnev, then make sure to go after other sold and bought races as well...pro and amateur level. Otherwise this is just a scandal of another sort.

Just a quick comment on dope. If the "war against doping" will go on as it is right now, then drop the whole frickin crusade.

As to your final paragraph to El Pistolero - if he says no, tell him he doesn't know what he is talking about, if he says yes ask him if he ever gave/received 100k for a win, if yes, he is a hypocrite, if no then say he is not a real cyclist blah blah blah.

I know how that question looks like, but thank you for elaborating on that.

In my opinion El Pistolero appears to be thinking that Kolobnev's win was certain in that situation. It was as certain as Vino was certain to drop Kolobnev on the final hill. To me it seems bit strange that someone who has raced bicycles on the road would suggest something like this to be certain. You cramp a bit or don't quite have it and the other guy is gone when hammering up the final hill.

 

[El Pistolero]

You know more about this specific case as I do. Maybe it was Kolobnev who initiated the whole thing because he wasn't feeling that fresh, but thought to try a bluff with Vino and it worked. There's always the poker aspect in bike racing and while Kolobnev might have held on to his ace bit longer in other races while racing for the 2nd or 3rd and been able to play that card in the sprint against tired men, he had to play that card in the km's before the sprint to stay away with Vino. It's crystal clear that they had an agreement. I don't care of how much money changed or didn't change hands, as it is irelevant here, as the agreement was made and the agreement is against the letter of the rule.

If you go on and roast Vino and Kolobnev, then make sure to go after other sold and bought races as well...pro and amateur level. Otherwise this is just a scandal of another sort.

Just a quick comment on dope. If the "war against doping" will go on as it is right now, then drop the whole frickin crusade.

If there is proof then yes. No one should sell races for cash. I have no problem with the winner of a race paying the second guy cash because they worked well together though. But paying someone specifically to lose a race on purpose is a no-no for me.

 

[OJ....]

If there is proof then yes. No one should sell races for cash. I have no problem with the winner of a race paying the second guy cash because they worked well together though. But paying someone specifically to lose a race on purpose is a no-no for me.

Well we have some kind of agreement here. Could be the first one in the history of online forums?

I don't know how anyone can ever prove that Vino-Kolo-agreement/arrangement was for not contesting the sprint/final kick. This is too easy to defend. Vino had a strong team mate in the chasing group whereas Kolobnev was up there alone and it would have been game over for Katusha if they were caught by the chasing group.

 

[BroDeal]

I have no problem with the winner of a race paying the second guy cash because they worked well together though.

That's what Vino did. The chief loan officer of the First National Bank of Kazahkstan gave Kolobnev a loan with very favorable--some might say almost non-existent--repayment terms for continuing to work to the end of the race.

 

[fasthill]

My point is you said Kolobnev could have attacked instead of staying with Vino. But that's not true, as both of them knew Kolobnev was faster. Staying with Vino was the best tactic he could employ.

Dude, you really have no idea what you're talking about, do you? There's no such thing as "faster". They're not MotoGP or F1 machines, they're humans. They do make mistakes and they do get tired more than another humans next to them. Maybe in fantasy games one guy is always faster than another but not in real world.

The best option, always and in all circumstances is to go solo if you can. This way you don't have to worry about who's "faster". And besides, no one is safe against a rider like Vino in an uphill finish at the the end of a long, hilly race. If Kolobnev was free to go, I'm sure he would have tried if he had the legs. It's sensible thing to do.

 

[El Pistolero]

Dude, you really have no idea what you're talking about, do you? There's no such thing as "faster". They're not MotoGP or F1 machines, they're humans. They do make mistakes and they do get tired more than another humans next to them. Maybe in fantasy games one guy is always faster than another but not in real world.

The best option, always and in all circumstances is to go solo if you can. This way you don't have to worry about who's "faster". And besides, no one is safe against a rider like Vino in an uphill finish at the the end of a long, hilly race. If Kolobnev was free to go, I'm sure he would have tried if he had the legs. It's sensible thing to do.

LBL doesn't have an uphill finish

I bet Gilbert should have went solo all along because waiting for the sprint would have been too dangerous

Seriously, do you believe your self? Going solo means much more risk than waiting for the sprint when knowing you're faster. Have you ever watched a cycling race in your life?

The sensible thing to do was not sell the race so cheaply and wait for the sprint.

 

[El Pistolero]

That's what Vino did. The chief loan officer of the First National Bank of Kazahkstan gave Kolobnev a loan with very favorable--some might say almost non-existent--repayment terms for continuing to work to the end of the race.

I guess you're being sarcastic here, but if that was the case then why was Kolobnev so afraid of getting his "balls cut off"?

 

[Panda Claws]

Dude, you really have no idea what you're talking about, do you? There's no such thing as "faster". They're not MotoGP or F1 machines, they're humans. They do make mistakes and they do get tired more than another humans next to them. Maybe in fantasy games one guy is always faster than another but not in real world.

The best option, always and in all circumstances is to go solo if you can. This way you don't have to worry about who's "faster". And besides, no one is safe against a rider like Vino in an uphill finish at the the end of a long, hilly race. If Kolobnev was free to go, I'm sure he would have tried if he had the legs. It's sensible thing to do.

Someone who is the fastest on paper might not always be the fastest in practice. But there is quite a bit of difference in sprinting speed between Kolobnev and Vinokourov.

This is like saying that Cavendish should attack the peleton because waiting for the sprint means he might lose to Greipel.

 

[El Pistolero]

Someone who is the fastest on paper might not always be the fastest in practice. But there is quite a bit of difference in sprinting speed between Kolobnev and Vinokourov.

This is like saying that Cavendish should attack the peleton because waiting for the sprint means he might lose to Greipel.

True, just look at Lombardia 2009:

1 Philippe Gilbert (BEL) Silence-Lotto 5h 43' 46"
2 Samuel Sánchez (ESP) Euskaltel-Euskadi s.t.
3 Alexandr Kolobnev (RUS) Team Saxo Bank + 4"
4 Luca Paolini (ITA) Acqua & Sapone-Caffè Mokambo s.t.
5 Johnny Hoogerland (NED) Vacansoleil s.t.
6 Robert Gesink (NED) Rabobank s.t.
7 Alexander Vinokourov (KAZ) Astana s.t.
8 Daniel Martin (IRL) Garmin-Slipstream s.t.
9 Juan José Cobo (ESP) Fuji-Servetto s.t.
10 Cadel Evans (AUS) Silence-Lotto s

==

Kolobnev got his 2 medals at the Worlds because of his decent sprint. In 2009 he won the sprint, but Evans went solo. In 2007 he was beaten only by Paolo Bettini.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

True, just look at Lombardia 2009:

1 Philippe Gilbert (BEL) Silence-Lotto 5h 43' 46"
2 Samuel Sánchez (ESP) Euskaltel-Euskadi s.t.
3 Alexandr Kolobnev (RUS) Team Saxo Bank + 4"
4 Luca Paolini (ITA) Acqua & Sapone-Caffè Mokambo s.t.
5 Johnny Hoogerland (NED) Vacansoleil s.t.
6 Robert Gesink (NED) Rabobank s.t.
7 Alexander Vinokourov (KAZ) Astana s.t.
8 Daniel Martin (IRL) Garmin-Slipstream s.t.
9 Juan José Cobo (ESP) Fuji-Servetto s.t.
10 Cadel Evans (AUS) Silence-Lotto s

==

Kolobnev got his 2 medals at the Worlds because of his decent sprint. In 2009 he won the sprint, but Evans went solo. In 2007 he was beaten only by Paolo Bettini.

Kolobney ever won the only stage of the tour where it ALLWAYS ends up in a mass sprint?

 

[El Pistolero]

Kolobney ever won the only stage of the tour where it ALLWAYS ends up in a mass sprint?

Kolobnev never really won a lot, now we know why

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Kolobnev never really won a lot, now we know why

well played sir

 

[La Pandera]

You're kidding right?
Here you have two riders who'll most likely be remembered as hardcore participants of the decades of medical deceit in sports. Being Russian speaking unfortunately isn't helping them. Getting caught blood doping, well that sealed it.
They can't change that anymore. Better men tried and failed. But they cán be 100k up whiledealing with that reality. Vino by being Vino and waking up richer every day, Kol by not disrespecting the pennies he notices on the road.

Was I not asked what "I" would do if I were in that situation? Not what I would do if I were Kolobnev. I would have gone for the win if I knew I was a superior sprinter to my opponent. I'd rather have the LBL win on my palmares than the 100k in my bank account. That win would, as the poster that I was responding to said, have positive impact on my next contract. Sorry you can't accept that choice but to each his own.

 

[fasthill]

Have you ever watched a cycling race in your life?

Watch? I guess that's where the difference of our views come from. My views, however flawed they might be, come from years of racing for a pay cheque. It was never big but enough to get by (just). Yours, on the other hand, come from watching the action from the comfort of your couch. This, by the way, doesn't make either of us more right or wrong but we're surely see things differently and judging by the number of your posts, care about being right all the time differently as well

 

[Cloxxki]

Was I not asked what "I" would do if I were in that situation? Not what I would do if I were Kolobnev. I would have gone for the win if I knew I was a superior sprinter to my opponent. I'd rather have the LBL win on my palmares than the 100k in my bank account. That win would, as the poster that I was responding to said, have positive impact on my next contract. Sorry you can't accept that choice but to each his own.

For some people cycling is just a better paid job, you know. Palmares, Schmalmares.

 

[fasthill]

This is like saying that Cavendish should attack the peleton because waiting for the sprint means he might lose to Greipel.

Good analogy but we're not talking bunch sprints here.