Vino bought the 2010 LBL?

[ramjambunath]

I don't see it as a mock at all. If you've lived in a country with as much corruption as mine, then you'll understand my lack of tolerance towards it. Oh and bankers here mean squat. Oh wait, does the Kazakh govt have investment in the sport. Interesting. Is Vino running for parliament, i think so, do I have to see match fixers in my parliament? indeed, so it's not as unconnected to the real world as you say. As a close follower of politics, I know what I'm talking about, especially with regards to my parliament.

 

[fasthill]

I also don't realise how bribery is irrelevant here.

That's OK. What you need to do is grab a copy of the UCI regulations and try to find "bribery" term in there. Once you do that, please quote that section here and we'll see where it will take us.

Kolobnev claims in the alleged mail that he was stronger than ever and then allegedly receives $100k in the days following the LBL. If that doesn't seem suspicious to you and if bribery doesn't come into the equation, then I'm sorry for your naivety.

There's nothing suspicious about feeling good and still coming 2nd. Happens all the time. Asking for 100,000 being wired to your account isn't suspicious either unless you know exactly what the payment is for. It only becomes suspicious when you chose to see it that way. These are normal, every day things people do on a regular basis.

 

[ramjambunath]

That's OK. What you need to do is grab a copy of the UCI regulations and try to find "bribery" term in there. Once you do that, please quote that section here and we'll see where it will take us.

I did read the UCI laws concerning this situation and Joe pointed out the law that suits this best (1.2.081) and even then there are grounds for an investigation. Let's not pigeon hole ourselves to just the UCI laws, you have to see beyond this case and as I posted earlier in the thread the case of Asif, Aamer and Butt, they weren't packed off to jail based on breaking the laws of the ICC but the UK laws (the bribery act being one of the laws).

I'm not claiming that Vinokourov and Kolobnev should be hanged or forced to retire or arrested but have a proper investigation according to UCI laws or Belgian laws and see where it goes. I've seen enough fixing scandals to accept any statement at face value. There's not enough of a reason to believe that they're guilty as of now, something I've claimed throughout.

We'll agree to disagree, there's no point in just talking at each other.

 

[Netserk]

@ramjambunath

Is it illegal to hit another person several times, breaking several bones in that persons body? YES

Does it happen that in a boxing fight, one of the boxers gets beaten the living sh!t out of them? YES

Does the boxer that delivers the beating get prosecuted for breaking the low? NO

Think a little bit about that

 

[ramjambunath]

@ramjambunath

Is it illegal to hit another person several times, breaking several bones in that persons body? YES

Does it happen that in a boxing fight, one of the boxers gets beaten the living sh!t out of them? YES

Does the boxer that delivers the beating get prosecuted for breaking the low? NO

Think a little bit about that

Rule 1.2.081 under the conduct of participants in a UCI sanctioned race.

1.2.081 Riders shall sportingly defend their own chances. Any collusion or behaviour likely to falsify or go against the interests of the competition shall be forbidden.

All I'm saying is let there be an investigation, why are you guys so defensive about it. If the UCI laws are broken and the law of the land is broken as well, there's no reason for govt authorities not to investigate it. Also, when have I made a statement that either of them are guilty.

When did I state that the 3 players didn't break ICC rules? They broke it but were jailed for breaking UK laws.

 

[JA.Tri]

That's OK. What you need to do is grab a copy of the UCI regulations and try to find "bribery" term in there. Once you do that, please quote that section here and we'll see where it will take us.




There's nothing suspicious about feeling good and still coming 2nd. Happens all the time. Asking for 100,000 being wired to your account isn't suspicious either unless you know exactly what the payment is for. It only becomes suspicious when you chose to see it that way. These are normal, every day things people do on a regular basis.

I don't find arranging a $100,000 (Euro?/?) loan while racing a monument as "normal". A gift associated with the outcome? Yes. A payment with question marks? Yes. Worthy of a further look? Yes.

The possibility that Kolobnev expresses concern about the circumstances of the negotiation/outcome also suggests a further look is warranted.

And while the UCI might not investigate, as we are aware, this does not prevent the relevant legal authorities from investigating if the laws of the land may have been infringed.

Edit: sorry repetition, I started the above then got sidetracked...

 

[El Pistolero]

Sure, this seals it, case closed. Without knowing the substance of their conversation, you're rushing to a conclusion you prefer to see.

I'm reading all this self righteous stomping on the internet and wonder, would there be the same amount of noise if it was the media's darling, someone like Voigt mixed up in something like this? I'm sure he would've been given a benefit of a doubt before being condemned on such irrefutable evidence.

Speaking of Voigt, it reminds me of the same race in 2005 Vino won. Didn't they come together to the finish and Vino dropped him like he dropped Kolobnev? Maybe he paid him too? It's Vino after all, a crook. T-Mobile was without a win up to that point, a desperate situation

I don't give a sh*t about Voigt. I wonder, would you defend this case so much if it was someone else than your beloved Vino? And Voigt did not get dropped like Kolobnev, but beaten in the sprint.

You're the only one rushing to conclusions you don't want to see here.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

I don't give a sh*t about Voigt. I wonder, would you defend this case so much if it was someone else than your beloved Vino? And Voigt did not get dropped like Kolobnev, but beaten in the sprint.

You're the only one rushing to conclusions you don't want to see here.

no
asdfghjk

 

[fasthill]

All I'm saying is let there be an investigation

OK, I can see your point now. Thanks.

 

[fasthill]

I don't find arranging a $100,000 (Euro?/?) loan while racing a monument as "normal".

Maybe, but that's just you. Russians can't stop themselves from talking dollars even while winning monuments BTW, nothing what we know so far suggests they made a deal on the road. L'Illustre wants you to think they did, but they've got no proof or at least they still have more hacking to do.

 

[fasthill]

I wonder, would you defend this case so much if it was someone else than your beloved Vino?

I don't remember sending you a list of my beloved riders, so please...

I'm what you called "defending this case" because it's never a good idea to rush to conclusions without knowing what actually happened.

 

[CobbleStoner]

an investigation? that would open the door to investigate every single race. the Belgians are the masters at that game, every Kermis is bought in the final break. Vino beat them at their own game, and he didn't offer Kolbonev 100k to 'gift' him the race (Vino pedaled every stoke, rode a masterful race, set up perfectly by teamates) he offered him 100k to work with him all the way to the finish, no cat and mouse tactics that would have got them caught, ride like a domestique for him, and a result of that would be Kolbonev dying before the line. Kolbonev could not have won after putting that much work in.
kudos Vino, epic win of a Classic in the classic Belgian way

 

[El Pistolero]

an investigation? that would open the door to investigate every single race. the Belgians are the masters at that game, every Kermis is bought in the final break. Vino beat them at their own game, and he didn't offer Kolbonev 100k to 'gift' him the race (Vino pedaled every stoke, rode a masterful race, set up perfectly by teamates) he offered him 100k to work with him all the way to the finish, no cat and mouse tactics that would have got them caught, ride like a domestique for him, and a result of that would be Kolbonev dying before the line. Kolbonev could not have won after putting that much work in.
kudos Vino, epic win of a Classic in the classic Belgian way

Yeah, because a Kermis koers is totally the same as a Monument

 

[El Pistolero]

I don't remember sending you a list of my beloved riders, so please...

I'm what you called "defending this case" because it's never a good idea to rush to conclusions without knowing what actually happened.

I don't remember sending you a list of cyclists I dislike, so please... Hypocrite much?

I'm someone who wants this case to be investigated and if proof is found punishment. I'm not jumping to any conclusion here.

 

[fasthill]

Yeah, because a Kermis koers is totally the same as a Monument

It doesn't matter what it is, the collusion rule is impossible to enforce and that's why it's openly broken at all levels of cycling all over the world. When 2 guys from different teams think their cooperation will benefit them, they'll cooperate until such time as this cooperation is no longer needed or not suitable for one of them. It's actually quite possible this is what happened, have you ever thought of that? Vino paid Kolobnev to help him deal with the likes of Gilbert, Evans, Valverde and a bunch of other strong men. This is normal and considering not such a huge amount of money involved, is plausible. Selling a Monument for 100,000 Euros is stupid, it really is. Do you really think Kolobnev is that stupid? Or desperate for cash? (maybe now he will be after lawyers will shake him up).

 

[El Pistolero]

It doesn't matter what it is, the collusion rule is impossible to enforce and that's why it's openly broken at all levels of cycling all over the world. When 2 guys from different teams think their cooperation will benefit them, they'll cooperate until such time as this cooperation is no longer needed or not suitable for one of them. It's actually quite possible this is what happened, have you ever thought of that? Vino paid Kolobnev to help him deal with the likes of Gilbert, Evans, Valverde and a bunch of other strong men. This is normal and considering not such a huge amount of money involved, is plausible. Selling a Monument for 100,000 Euros is stupid, it really is. Do you really think Kolobnev is that stupid? Or desperate for cash? (maybe now he will be after lawyers will shake him up).

Yes, I think Kolobnev is stupid.

Read the e-mails, they're telling a totally different story than what you guys are so desperately trying to claim what happened. Where's the proof for what you say happened?

Paying someone to not contend for the win is forbidden according to the rules and if the UCI can proof that happened than they can enforce it. If it's so openly done than why is Kolobnev so afraid in the e-mails he wrote? He clearly knew that it was wrong what he was doing.

People just don't care because Vino is the forum favorite here and he can never do something wrong

 

[fasthill]

I don't remember sending you a list of cyclists I dislike, so please... Hypocrite much?

Unlike you, I never linked you to Voigt with an affection. I said Voigt is one media's darlings. You're not media, are you?

 

[fasthill]

Yes, I think Kolobnev is stupid.

OK, I get it now. It's personal

Where's the proof for what you say happened?

I don't know what happened, nor does anybody else. That's my whole point. Sorry you didn't seem to get it straight away.

 

[El Pistolero]

Unlike you, I never linked you to Voigt with an affection. I said Voigt is one media's darlings. You're not media, are you?

"I'm reading all this self righteous stomping on the internet and wonder, would there be the same amount of noise if it was the media's darling, someone like Voigt mixed up in something like this? I'm sure he would've been given a benefit of a doubt before being condemned on such irrefutable evidence"

You're implying that most people on the internet dislike Vino.

But hey, doping is just as wide spread as bribing people in cycling, so why not allow doping as well? What does it matter huh?

 

[CobbleStoner]

Yeah, because a Kermis koers is totally the same as a Monument

yeah, because what they learn/do in Kermis' never goes with them up to the pros, like juicing too. wake up.

and you think Kolbonev was paid not to sprint? it makes more sense (and the video backs it up) that he was paid to work hard over those last few kilo's, big difference

 

[Richeypen]

Of course if both were to get disqualified Gilbert would get the win

 

[El Pistolero]

yeah, because what they learn/do in Kermis' never goes with them up to the pros, like juicing too. wake up.

and you think Kolbonev was paid not to sprint? it makes more sense (and the video backs it up) that he was paid to work hard over those last few kilo's, big difference

Kermis koersen are not the same as professional races.

Kolobnev on April 26: "Remember that for me it was a great chance. I do not know if I was right to do what I did. Not so much because of our agreement, but mostly because of my feelings towards you and towards your situation. Even my wife was not too bothered by the fact that I was second, because you were the first. If it had been someone else in your place there, I would have gone for the win, glory and bonus (I have this in my contract for the classics). That day I felt stronger than ever.
"Now it only remains for me to wait patiently to see if all this was not vain. Here is a copy of all my bank details; clear this from your mail box or I risk having my balls cut off. [Bank details allegedly follow]: Let me know, I'll check the operation and that everything went well. Good luck in the Giro!"

Vinokourov replies on May 8: "Excuse me for having a long delay in answering you, I was busy at home with the children, the Giro, etc... You have done everything properly, do not worry. As you say, the earth is round and God sees everything... So, again thank you. You will finally win the championship this year, I believe. Do not worry for the agreement, I will do it. Wait just a little. Take care. Vino."

The e-mails are pretty blatant something else happened.

 

[El Pistolero]

yeah, because what they learn/do in Kermis' never goes with them up to the pros, like juicing too. wake up.

and you think Kolbonev was paid not to sprint? it makes more sense (and the video backs it up) that he was paid to work hard over those last few kilo's, big difference

So doping is allowed as well now? Thank you! Impossible to discuss with you people who want this sport to be turned into a fake sport like wrestling.

The video shows Kolobnev conveniently dropping right before the sprint

 

[fasthill]

The e-mails are pretty blatant something else happened.

Something what?

 

[El Pistolero]

Something what?

That Kolobnev wasn't going for the victory in a race because of money.

If they made an agreement to co-operate so the break stays away and that who ever wins, pays the second guy $100k I would be fine with that. But the e-mails state that Kolobnev sacrificed his chances for victory for $100K... I fail to see why we should accept the latter.