Vino bought the 2010 LBL?

[The Hitch]

footb...oh wait.

WWF.

I certainly do find more to respect in WWE than football yes.

 

[Cloxxki]

You know of any sports with less reasons to be hated?

Curling.
But the first reason is enough to stay shy from it altogether. Unless I find myself urged to become an Olympian after turning 50.

 

[Polish]

I'm defending both the practice and Vino, and I remain to contend that if it was any rider other than Vino accused of doing this no one here would be whining and carping about it like you are.

How about if Levi bought his Tour of Suisse win?
Would you be ok with that?

Or would you "bump" your "Levi on ephedrine waawaa" thread...

 

[Anonymous]

I'm defending both the practice and Vino, and I remain to contend that if it was any rider other than Vino accused of doing this no one here would be whining and carping about it like you are. Many posters here seem to believe in some idealized, fantasy cycling that bears no resemblance to the reality of the sport - and I'm not talking about doping.

The point also remains that Kolobnev may very well not have been strong enough to beat Vino and simply bluffed him into such an agreement. If you watch the final km's of the race and count the number of times Kolobnev stands up but then is forced to sit down while trying to respond to Vino's attack, and the number of pedal revolutions during each interval of standing, the Russian's form appears consistent with a rider suffering cramp or on the verge of suffering cramp due to muscular fatigue (vs. electrolyte imbalance/dehydration). Although only a detailed analysis of his power output and comparisons to previous data and historical trends could confirm it, I very much so doubt that Kolobnev could've actually beaten Vino, but I applaud the Kazakh for his thoroughness in covering all angles to seal the win. It would've been both a pleasure and an honor to compete against him, break away with him, and receive the offer of a loan from him - especially if I suspected he'd beat me anyway.

Nevertheless, what you all seem to be willfully ignoring is the exact wording of the collusion rule, which allows more than enough room for both Vino and Kolobnev to argue that they delivered a watchable, compelling "show" to the public and maintained the honor of the race - if they felt compelled to respond affirmatively to these allegations at all. The only villain here is the Swiss magazine which published these sensationalized allegations, since for over 1.5 years none of you has felt that dissatisfied with the outcome of L-B-L w/ respect to the sporting-appearance of the finale. I understand that many of you threw-up in your mouths because Vino won, but I don't think you puked because of how he won.

Until now.

and I'm not talking about doping

But you could be and no one would know the difference. The justifications are the same.

Vino was/is an exciting rider. If true, this does nothing but tarnish him even more than before.

That's a shame.

I wonder how many races you could have won if your bank account was a lot bigger?

 

[Epicycle]

It could be worse. Remember how upset Freire was when he was told not to contest the finish in the stage Popovych won during the 2006 Tour?

 

[BroDeal]

Vino was/is an exciting rider. If true, this does nothing but tarnish him even more than before.

Not if you accept that there are many times when help is needed to win and the rider providing that help will want something in return. They're pros. Each rider will want to come out of the race with the best possible outcome for himself, factoring in the risk and uncertainty. Kolobnev made the decision that taking the 100K was the best outcome that he could get that day. He would have factored in his strength and how strong he thought Vino was.

 

[hrotha]

Not if you accept that there are many times when help is needed to win and the rider providing that help will want something in return. They're pros. Each rider will want to come out of the race with the best possible outcome for himself, factoring in the risk and uncertainty. Kolobnev made the decision that taking the 100K was the best outcome that he could get that day. He would have factored in his strength and how strong he thought Vino was.

Substitute a few words by "doping" and your argument still works the same. They're pros. They factor in the risks and uncertainty (of being busted) and do what it takes to get the best outcome they can get on any given day. Because hey, many times help is needed to win.

 

[cocteau_ireland]

After tentative enquiries, the European Central Bank has approached vino with a view to a multi-billion strong Kazakh loan. Honestly, his dostoevskian granny stifling potential is long manifest.

 

[Roland Rat]

I have no qualms with Vino, as has been said before it's part of cycling.

As for Kolobnev, anyone who sells a monument is a disgrace and should try to remember why they started racing in the first place. And it's not like he's on minumum wage struggling to make ends meet.

Unless he had cramp as has been suggested, in which case it was a great piece of bluffing.

 

[cleverhans]

Speaking of Conti and Tiralongo at Macugnaga this Spring, that was a nice gift for PT, maybe the high point of his career. Incidentally, last month PT testified for AC before CAS in the clen case.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contadors-team-mates-to-testify-at-cas
As one of the steak eaters, it was clear all along that PT's testimony would be taken. So, was that AC the generous, gifting his old buddy a GT stage, or AC the cautious, buying a little insurance?

 

[Anonymous]

Not if you accept that there are many times when help is needed to win and the rider providing that help will want something in return. They're pros. Each rider will want to come out of the race with the best possible outcome for himself, factoring in the risk and uncertainty. Kolobnev made the decision that taking the 100K was the best outcome that he could get that day. He would have factored in his strength and how strong he thought Vino was.

Okay, so why was Kolobnev worried his balls getting cut off? If this happens all the time (selling a monument) then it should be no biggie, right?

I suppose Tchmil and Kolobnev's teammates should be just fine with his decision...

 

[Martin318is]

I have no qualms with Vino, as has been said before it's part of cycling.

As for Kolobnev, anyone who sells a monument is a disgrace and should try to remember why they started racing in the first place. And it's not like he's on minumum wage struggling to make ends meet.

Unless he had cramp as has been suggested, in which case it was a great piece of bluffing.

I am going to be vague here and I apologise for that but if I use specifics then I am going to be unfairly dumping someone in it. Anyway...

I personally know someone who was in one of the oldest races in the world about 20-25 years ago. He was in a small group of about 5 riders that had a chance of producing the winner, if - and ONLY if - they all worked turns and team timetrialled to the finish.

One of the other riders - who was the most well known in the group - came up to him 50km from the finish and said he would pay him to bury himself and work hard on the front to get them to the line.

He did and he ended up coming in around 5th over 30 seconds down on the winner (the guy who paid him).

At the time he was very happy with it as he got a top 5 finish (that he wouldnt have necessarily got if they didnt all ride) and some cash, and he thought at the time he had no hope for the win.

10 years later though when that was still his best ever race result and he'd retired from racing, he had major regrets and spent a lot of time thinking about whether he really would have got a podium or better if he hadn't accepted the money.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Even if Vino bought the victory, or the support, or whatever...even if I would feel cheated or disappointed then...I would forgive him.
People have to understand that Vino has a lot of pressure and responsibility.
Perhaps even pressure from outside, but more self-produced inner pressure.

Vino is a national hero and people still need him.

Pro cycling is a moving circus, with freaks on bikes. Freaks is meant positive. Nothing more, nothing less.
This sport has its own inner rules, fairness and justice. Not always understandable or appreciated by ordinary people and all those decency-aunts.

Anyway, a peloton will always be just an imaging of society. Nothing more, nothing less. For many riders its just a job. And for many fans, those guys are just modern gladiators.

Back in the days, lets say Hinault etc., unknown or young riders got a slap or had to pee into their bottle etc..., if they passed or came close to guys like Hinault, without asking and explaining. Not even talking about riding too fast or even attacking.
Some things have improved sportswise. Always think positive.

 

[BroDeal]

If this happens all the time (selling a monument) then it should be no biggie, right?

In order to "sell a monument" Kolobnev would have had to believe that he could beat Vino on that day. Ultimately a win would have been worth more to him than 100K. Obviously he thought the risk/reward ratio of him beating Vino and collecting the value of an LBL win was a lot worse than taking a sure 100K. If he did not think that then he would not have taken the money. According to Kolobnev's actions, the right man won the race. He just collected more than he would have without the agreement.

 

[El Pistolero]

In order to "sell a monument" Kolobnev would have had to believe that he could beat Vino on that day. Ultimately a win would have been worth more to him than 100K. Obviously he thought the risk/reward ratio of him beating Vino and collecting the value of an LBL win was a lot worse than taking a sure 100K. If he did not think that then he would not have taken the money. According to Kolobnev's actions, the right man won the race. He just collected more than he would have without the agreement.

You don't know how Kolobnev was feeling that day though. I find it kinda strange that the best sprinter on paper all of a sudden gets dropped by a weak attack on false flat when he survived Saint Nicholas with relative ease...

Vino tried the same attack at the Clasica San Sebastian(same spot where Phil attacked this year), but couldn't even get rid of Lulu.

 

[BroDeal]

You don't know how Kolobnev was feeling that day though.

We know that he did not feel that the odds of beating Vino were good enough to turn down a 100K.

 

[The Hitch]

You don't know how Kolobnev was feeling that day though. I find it kinda strange that the best sprinter on paper all of a sudden gets dropped by a weak attack on false flat when he survived Saint Nicholas with relative ease...

Vino tried the same attack at the Clasica San Sebastian(same spot where Phil attacked this year), but couldn't even get rid of Lulu.

Considering Vinos schedule in 2010 I think he can be excused for not dropping LLS at his last race of the season.

Though if we go by that logic, Gilbert couldn't even drop Riccardo Chiarini in Lombardy

 

[Anonymous]

In order to "sell a monument" Kolobnev would have had to believe that he could beat Vino on that day. Ultimately a win would have been worth more to him than 100K. Obviously he thought the risk/reward ratio of him beating Vino and collecting the value of an LBL win was a lot worse than taking a sure 100K. If he did not think that then he would not have taken the money. According to Kolobnev's actions, the right man won the race. He just collected more than he would have without the agreement.

And that is the point. Neither Vino, nor Kolobnev or anyone else for that matter will know what would have happened.

I wonder how much Cav paid Goss in Copenhagen... Hopefully more than Goss paid Phil at San Remo. I'd imagine Nuyens will owe Spartacus for some time still. In fact Cancellara probably did really well this year. 2nd at San Remo, 3rd at RvV, 2nd at P-R...

 

[Roland Rat]

Even if Vino bought the victory, or the support, or whatever...even if I would feel cheated or disappointed then...I would forgive him.
People have to understand that Vino has a lot of pressure and responsibility.
Perhaps even pressure from outside, but more self-produced inner pressure.

Vino is a national hero and people still need him.

Pro cycling is a moving circus, with freaks on bikes. Freaks is meant positive. Nothing more, nothing less.
This sport has its own inner rules, fairness and justice. Not always understandable or appreciated by ordinary people and all those decency-aunts.

Anyway, a peloton will always be just an imaging of society. Nothing more, nothing less. For many riders its just a job. And for many fans, those guys are just modern gladiators.

Back in the days, lets say Hinault etc., unknown or young riders got a slap or had to pee into their bottle etc..., if they passed or came close to guys like Hinault, without asking and explaining. Not even talking about riding too fast or even attacking.
Some things have improved sportswise. Always think positive.

I don't even see this as cheating. In a race you use every tool at your disposal to win, including psychological tactics. This happens in amateur racing, you're in a break with another guy, you have "the talk" (I.e. Ask him if he wants you to work with him to help him get to the finish so he can take 2nd, or if he wants you to drop him and leave him to be caught by the bunch). If the other guy is mentally weak enough to fall for it, more fool him. This is just taking it to the next level. It's certainly not comparable to doping, like Daniel Benson suggested.

(or you can do what a certain elder brother allegedly did in a kermesse and take the deal, sprint for the win anyway, lose fair and square, then collect the bribe with and added slap on the back for making it look real )

 

[El Pistolero]

Considering Vinos schedule in 2010 I think he can be excused for not dropping LLS at his last race of the season.

Though if we go by that logic, Gilbert couldn't even drop Riccardo Chiarini in Lombardy

He did the Tour, no better preparation for the CSS.

 

[The Hitch]

He did the Tour, no better preparation for the CSS.

He did do the Tour.

After the Giro.

After already being on top form for Trentino and Liege.

Thats 1 long period to maintain a peak.

 

[Mambo95]

This list is embarrassing. Even a minor golf event pays out orders of magnitude more.

They do but you have to remember that nobody in golf is paid a salary like in cycling. Same with tennis. And they have quite a lot of overheads.

I've argued on another website that while Contador and Cavendish may not make the same money as McIlroy and Michelson or Nadal and Novak, the people who are ranked 200 in the world at cycling are making a much better living than the golfers and tennis players at the same rank.

Don't judge a sport's welfare by it's top earners.

 

[cocteau_ireland]

Unless ur wac-a-day-d!!! Rat fans!! That poor bleeding granny tho

 

[El Pistolero]

We know that he did not feel that the odds of beating Vino were good enough to turn down a 100K.

No, what we know is that Vino offered $100,000 to someone so he would win. It doesn't matter if he also could have won without doing that, the fact is, HE DID DO IT. So he should be punished if there is enough evidence against him. What's so hard to understand about that?

 

[El Pistolero]

He did do the Tour.

After the Giro.

After already being on top form for Trentino and Liege.

Thats 1 long period to maintain a peak.

For the likes of Cancellara perhaps. Vino was pretty good in the CSS, just as he was in the Giro or Tour.