Vino bought the 2010 LBL?

[Franklin]

You know that a rider can win a GT without a stage win. I think the difference between a GT or stage race and a classic is clear

It's buying help.... It's basically Conti going to his backpouch and handing over 50k.

I don't mind this situation but when money is exchanged (deciding the outcome) the credibility of the win crashes.

Once again; this is what happens every GT. People are bought. Cycling is an immoral sport and that's a big draw for me. Because (as Joe said) you have to be a really good athlete to even get in the postion to make these deals.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

vino's an absolute tool anyway. never trust a LIAR - which he has already proven to be!

why so mean?

edit: btw, you can`t truste anyone, everyone lies

 

[webvan]

If cash isn't exchanged, you see it all the time in a two-man break where one guy can get the leader's jersey and he will let the other guy get the stage win, so ergo both guys will work and have an incentive to ride.

It's tricky because, cash or no cash, there is an "entente" that's only set up to improve the situation of each racer, including financial...but then doesn't that happen in everyday life too?

In 2006 Dessel who was about to get the yellow jersey on the TDF refused to gift the stage to his companion, so the guy stopped cooperating, their lead fell and the guy won all the same...doesn't pay to be righteous, eh!

 

[Francois the Postman]

Franklin, is there a difference to you between buying support to get-away+win/stay-away+win when that isn't secure yet, and buying a win after the gap is secured and it's just between the riders involved [one day race, so no GC considerations, etc]?

 

[Netserk]

Franklin, is there a difference to you between buying support to get-away+win/stay-away+win when that isn't secure yet, and buying a win after the gap is secured and it's just between the riders involved?

To me it is NOT acceptable if it is a classic(having a gap, and deciding the outcome of the sprint), but I don't mind in a stage race.

 

[El Pistolero]

It's buying help.... It's basically Conti going to his backpouch and handing over 50k.



Once again; this is what happens every GT. People are bought. Cycling is an immoral sport and that's a big draw for me. Because (as Joe said) you have to be a really good athlete to even get in the postion to make these deals.

Contador never offered money to Scarponi or Basso to lose the Giro. Your comparison is moot. Seeking for alliances on the road is allowed, seeking alliances by paying real cash without having to do any effort(what Contador did for Tiralongo wasn't effortless for him) is not allowed.

 

[ramjambunath]

It's buying help.... It's basically Conti going to his backpouch and handing over 50k.



Once again; this is what happens every GT. People are bought. Cycling is an immoral sport and that's a big draw for me. Because (as Joe said) you have to be a really good athlete to even get in the postion to make these deals.

You've ignored the fact that I was making a clear distinction between GTs and Classics. I would prefer no change of cash to decide course of a stage but in classics, in my opinion, it's just a no go. Predetermined races belong in computer games not on the road. A stage race isn't raced over a day so I'm aware of gifting stages but again selling stages would constitute race fixing ie a bribe for a loss.

I'm under no illusions of the athletic capabilities of a professional rider and I'm well aware of the strength and stamina it takes to be a pro (especially, lacking said stamina to even be a holiday rider). Just because the guy who gets in a break is strong enough to get in one it shouldn't mean that he should win unchallenged or the other rider should forfeit. Asif, Aamer and Butt were arrested and sentenced to jail for far smaller offences.

 

[just some guy]

You've ignored the fact that I was making a clear distinction between GTs and Classics. I would prefer no change of cash to decide course of a stage but in classics, in my opinion, it's just a no go. Predetermined races belong in computer games not on the road. A stage race isn't raced over a day so I'm aware of gifting stages but again selling stages would constitute race fixing ie a bribe for a loss.

I'm under no illusions of the athletic capabilities of a professional rider and I'm well aware of the strength and stamina it takes to be a pro (especially, lacking said stamina). Just because the guy who gets in a break is strong enough to get in one it shouldn't mean that he should win unchallenged or the other rider should forfeit. Asif, Aamer and Butt were arrested and sentenced to jail for far smaller offences.

to cash in test cricket is ok but one days is not ?

Look cash changing hands to set the outcome of a race and a stage race is a group of individual races should be banned.

2 blokes saying they will split the prize money and work together and see who wins at the end - grey area.

 

[ramjambunath]

to cash in test cricket is ok but one days is not ?

Look cash changing hands to set the outcome of a race and a stage race is a group of individual races should be banned.

2 blokes saying they will split the prize money and work together and see who wins at the end - grey area.

Never said that, I prefer 0 cash transfer. If ODIs go because of that though, i won't complain

Gifting stages doesn't constitute fixing as he's continually gaining time (I'm definitely not a blind Contador fan) but receiving payments to lose isn't ethical and also is punishable under the match fixing laws in the UK (not sure about continental Europe).

 

[ramjambunath]

to cash in test cricket is ok but one days is not ?

Look cash changing hands to set the outcome of a race and a stage race is a group of individual races should be banned.

2 blokes saying they will split the prize money and work together and see who wins at the end - grey area.

Never said that, I want no cash transfer.

Gifting stages doesn't constitute fixing as the rider that's gaining is continually gaining time and increasing his chances but receiving payments to lose isn't ethical and also is punishable under the match fixing laws in the UK (not sure about continental Europe). It isn't as clear as cricket but funds transfer for results are over the line.

The grey area doesn't constitute a fixed race though as they're competing till the end. At least not according to the UCI law that Joe posted

UCI rule 1.2.081 states that: “Riders shall sportingly defend their own chances. Any collusion or behaviour likely to falsify or go against the interests of the competition shall be forbidden.”

In this hypothetical case the prize money is shared but the interests of fair competition is maintained as the winner of the race isn't predetermined. My interpretation would say that it's fine.

 

[Francois the Postman]

Vaguely related...

I always thought that betters and betting sites were the ones who had the strongest case for suing if sports weren't played by its own rules.

Seems the French gambling watchdog has less evidence to go on, but still seen enough to investigate "it's own" Lyon after the Lyon-Zagreb result. And probably with more teeth and investigative tools than UEFA (or UCI) could ever muster.

EDIT: Alas, not with more teeth, it seems, it can only investigate the gambling public. Pity.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Contador never offered money to Scarponi or Basso to lose the Giro. Your comparison is moot. Seeking for alliances on the road is allowed, seeking alliances by paying real cash without having to do any effort(what Contador did for Tiralongo wasn't effortless for him) is not allowed.

Just because you say it's moot, doesn't make it so.
Gifting stages or buying stages effects outcome.
Morally, while they appear poles apart, both are motivated by gain.
Gifting stages is the currency of repayment or future repayment, as opposed to money being currency of payment.

As for Vino making no effort: great point.............for Vino.
In order to get into a position to offer a bribe, he had to first of all out ride the rest of the LBL field............unless, of course, you think that 200 riders got a kick back.

 

[Bumeington]

Just because you say it's moot, doesn't make it so.
Gifting stages or buying stages effects outcome.
Morally, while they appear poles apart, both are motivated by gain.
Gifting stages is the currency of repayment or future repayment, as opposed to money being currency of payment.

As for Vino making no effort: great point.............for Vino.
In order to get into a position to offer a bribe, he had to first of all
had to out ride the rest of the LBL field............unless, of course,
you think that 200 riders got a kick back.

Contador can do a favour for Tiralongo in the Giro because he was super strong.

Vino can buy LBL from Kolobnev because he is super rich. Which is better?

Ok Vino still had to make it to the final selection of 2 but (if these allegations are true) he then cheated.

 

[theyoungest]

Vaguely related...

I always thought that betters and betting sites were the ones who had the strongest case for suing if sports weren't played by its own rules.

Seems the French gambling watchdog has less evidence to go on, but still seen enough to investigate "it's own" Lyon after the Lyon-Zagreb result. And probably with more teeth and investigative tools than UEFA (or UCI) could ever muster.

EDIT: Alas, not with more teeth, it seems, it can only investigate the gambling public. Pity.

Yeah, which is a useless investigation, because that's not where the fraud (if any) is likely to stem from.

 

[Cloxxki]

Such a beautiful sport, yet so many reasons to hate it

It's like appreciating a nice drink, but having to deal with Capone's gang to get a taste of it.

 

[warmik80]

UCI investigates

Never mind that , the blazers from Switzerland are on the case . Should be all wrapped up by the end of the year!

 

[The Hitch]

So Contador is getting riled against in this thread for giving a good friend, Tiralongo a stage. An act of generosity.

I hear that when 2 heads of state meet they will often give eachother presents such as flowers or dvd's or a painting.

Respect between 2 allies. An act of goodwill or generosity?

NO CHANCE!!!

They are trying to bribe the other country with dvd's

They should be charged with treason.

Or so it seems some of you might cry.

While we are at it, lets go and take away Jallaberts 1995 Vuelta because he gave one of those stages away. Anti cheating must have a long memory.

Also lets ban the practise of birthday or Christmas presents since essentially (by this great logic) that is bribing people.

 

[Benotti69]

Such a beautiful sport, yet so many reasons to hate it

It's like appreciating a nice drink, but having to deal with Capone's gang to get a taste of it.

How very true and very sad.

 

[The Hitch]

Such a beautiful sport, yet so many reasons to hate it

It's like appreciating a nice drink, but having to deal with Capone's gang to get a taste of it.

You know of any sports with less reasons to be hated?

 

[c&cfan]

You know of any sports with less reasons to be hated?

footb...oh wait.

WWF.

 

[El Pistolero]

Just because you say it's moot, doesn't make it so.
Gifting stages or buying stages effects outcome.
Morally, while they appear poles apart, both are motivated by gain.
Gifting stages is the currency of repayment or future repayment, as opposed to money being currency of payment.

As for Vino making no effort: great point.............for Vino.
In order to get into a position to offer a bribe, he had to first of all out ride the rest of the LBL field............unless, of course, you think that 200 riders got a kick back.

I never said it didn't cost effort for Vino though. I said buying the help of teams with money costs no effort.

Gifting stages indeed affected the outcome of the Giro. If Contador wouldn't have gifted stages he'd have won by at least 8 minutes and would have also won the mountains jersey.

 

[El Pistolero]

So Contador is getting riled against in this thread for giving a good friend, Tiralongo a stage. An act of generosity.

I hear that when 2 heads of state meet they will often give eachother presents such as flowers or dvd's or a painting.

Respect between 2 allies. An act of goodwill or generosity?

NO CHANCE!!!

They are trying to bribe the other country with dvd's

They should be charged with treason.

Or so it seems some of you might cry.

While we are at it, lets go and take away Jallaberts 1995 Vuelta because he gave one of those stages away. Anti cheating must have a long memory.

Also lets ban the practise of birthday or Christmas presents since essentially (by this great logic) that is bribing people.

For some reason they seem to think it's just the same as paying someone to not contend for the win. It's like talking to a deaf man.

 

[cleverhans]

Imagine how filthy rich Marcato must be.

ha ha, good one!

 

[cleverhans]

http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2011/04/liege-bastogne-liege-2011/

This list is embarrassing. Even a minor golf event pays out orders of magnitude more.

 

[joe_papp]

throwing up in your mouths...

Well hold on - Joe is not telling it like it is, Tillford has, Creed has, even you have explained what is a well known part of the sport.

Joe is not defending the practice - he is defending Vino.
It is no different to what others do in relation to their favorite riders on this forum.
Joe is the one taking up the extremist position - if you don't fully agree, you're not worthy, you don't understand the sport, you're not a Pro.

No-one is looking for Vino's head - any UCI investigation (while comical) will go nowhere.

I'm defending both the practice and Vino, and I remain to contend that if it was any rider other than Vino accused of doing this no one here would be whining and carping about it like you are. Many posters here seem to believe in some idealized, fantasy cycling that bears no resemblance to the reality of the sport - and I'm not talking about doping.

The point also remains that Kolobnev may very well not have been strong enough to beat Vino and simply bluffed him into such an agreement. If you watch the final km's of the race and count the number of times Kolobnev stands up but then is forced to sit down while trying to respond to Vino's attack, and the number of pedal revolutions during each interval of standing, the Russian's form appears consistent with a rider suffering cramp or on the verge of suffering cramp due to muscular fatigue (vs. electrolyte imbalance/dehydration). Although only a detailed analysis of his power output and comparisons to previous data and historical trends could confirm it, I very much so doubt that Kolobnev could've actually beaten Vino, but I applaud the Kazakh for his thoroughness in covering all angles to seal the win. It would've been both a pleasure and an honor to compete against him, break away with him, and receive the offer of a loan from him - especially if I suspected he'd beat me anyway.

Nevertheless, what you all seem to be willfully ignoring is the exact wording of the collusion rule, which allows more than enough room for both Vino and Kolobnev to argue that they delivered a watchable, compelling "show" to the public and maintained the honor of the race - if they felt compelled to respond affirmatively to these allegations at all. The only villain here is the Swiss magazine which published these sensationalized allegations, since for over 1.5 years none of you has felt that dissatisfied with the outcome of L-B-L w/ respect to the sporting-appearance of the finale. I understand that many of you threw-up in your mouths because Vino won, but I don't think you puked because of how he won.