Vino bought the 2010 LBL?

[BroDeal]

Kolobnev receives an award.

http://cyclismas.com/2011/12/kolobnev-receives-crony-of-the-year-award/

 

[ramjambunath]

Just because it happens, doesn't make it right. Congo's the supposed rape capital of the world, should rape be legalised there. Colombia has a serious problem with production of drugs, should that be legalised there and India has huge corruption problems, should we accept kickbacks and falsely sold licenses just because it happens there. What bs.

For all those accusing others of wanting a sport where accepting money to lose is seen as a bribe being in a fantasy land, I request you guys to get out of your own fantasy land of cycling being the world. Bribes and kickbacks are crimes in the real world. Just because a former pro comes out in public with an article, it doesn't make it an etically correct decision. There's a reason Creed is ashamed of this culture. A gentleman's agreement in another sport led to a can of rotten worms to be opened, here is the match- nothing can be more gentlemanly than this agreement and as it turned out it was the worst case of a fixed match. I don't think there were ever comments against Vino being a definite race fixer but the act itself being deplorable. You guys know way more about cycling than I'd ever claim to but obviously there's some lack of knowledge of the real world. Bribes, as this essentially would be, are illegal around the world regardless of sport or any field of life. Why should cyclists be let off for fixing races through agreement. Match fixing has a place- in WWF wrestling, not in a legitimate sport. If this is the prevailing attitude of the powers that be in the sport, then they clearly belong in the medieval society.

UCI rule 1.2.081 states that: “Riders shall sportingly defend their own chances. Any collusion or behaviour likely to falsify or go against the interests of the competition shall be forbidden.”

Thanks. That rule alone is enough for a proper investigation to be launched after the allegations made against both riders because an alleged bribe isn't exactly an act which doesn't go against the interest of the competition. I'm not accusing Vinokourov or Kolobnev of anything, merely pointing out what was written in the article and my question to you is- do you want him to ride forever with this cloud around him. Wouldn't it be better for there to be an investigation into the matter and him being cleared (with the info available now, there isn't that much on which a case can be built or won) or on the other hand, if Kolobnev did throw away victory, wouldn't you want that to truth to come out? After all, the point of a competitive sport is to be competitive, not appear to be competititve. If anything, throwing away a victory should be punished even more than a doping offence as this goes against the very ethos of sport.

 

[joe_papp]

Wouldn't it be better for there to be an investigation into the matter and him being cleared (with the info available now, there isn't that much on which a case can be built or won) or on the other hand, if Kolobnev did throw away victory, wouldn't you want that to truth to come out? After all, the point of a competitive sport is to be competitive, not appear to be competititve. If anything, throwing away a victory should be punished even more than a doping offence as this goes against the very ethos of sport.

An investigation in response to a sensational story in a magazine sourced from emails supposedly hacked out of one of the target's personal computer? Oh yeah, I think that's perfect justification for the UCI to start investigating them. The UCI won't even investigate Longo for EPO use after I sold it to her husband and provided the FFC w/ all of the evidence and a sworn affidavit. And yet you want McQuaid to break Vino's balls over a story in a Swiss magazine?

 

[ramjambunath]

An investigation in response to a sensational story in a magazine sourced from emails supposedly hacked out of one of the target's personal computer? Oh yeah, I think that's perfect justification for the UCI to start investigating them. The UCI won't even investigate Longo for EPO use after I sold it to her husband and provided the FFC w/ all of the evidence and a sworn affidavit. And yet you want McQuaid to break Vino's balls over a story in a Swiss magazine?

Hardly, I don't have any agenda against Vinokourov and I love to watch him race. I don't believe he's guilty either (something I've tried to stress in all my posts) but there's if the matter's not investigated and if he's never proven to be innocent, there will always be a cloud over him which would be completely unnecessary.

For the record, it's truly sad that Longo was allowed to walk despite her indiscretions and the UCI lost a whole chunk of credibility for basically allowing a brokered retirement.

 

[joe_papp]

Hardly, I don't have any agenda against Vinokourov and I love to watch him race. I don't believe he's guilty either (something I've tried to stress in all my posts) but there's if the matter's not investigated and if he's never proven to be innocent, there will always be a cloud over him which would be completely unnecessary.

For the record, it's truly sad that Longo was allowed to walk despite her indiscretions and the UCI lost a whole chunk of credibility for basically allowing a brokered retirement.

I appreciate your considered response re. Longo, but I maintain that Vino should not be subjected to an investigation (nor Kolobnev) - nor be faced to bear the cost of mounting a legal defense (however minor that might be for a man who can loan friends/colleagues $134,000 at a pop)- based solely on a sensationalized story in a Swiss magazine written using information allegedly stolen from one of the potential targets. If Kolobnev accuses Vino of something - ok, investigate it. Likewise if Vino accuses the Russian. But to start an investigation based on material that can't be confirmed as authentic and wouldn't meet the standards for reliable evidence...nah. But that's just my opinion as someone who's gone through an investigation that was justified. I can't imagine having to deal w/ one that was spurious.

 

[Kwibus]

here you go

Oh lol. Unless Vino paid Kolobnev for some new top of the bill PEDs ;P

 

[Kwibus]

As long as a show is put on, whether people are paid to lose or not is irrelevant. That attitude resembles professional wrestling's kayfabe more closely than it does any actual sport.

I don't need you to point out that such things happen regularly in cycling, by the way, any more than I need you to tell me that the post-tour Crits are fixed. Shay Elliot, the first Irish rider to win a bunch of important races on the Continent, famously sold more races to others than he won himself. I'm just a little surprised to see people openly defending the practice of making actual cash payments to riders on other teams to throw a small group sprint. Defending being a different thing from "acknowledging the existence of".

This.

10 chars.

 

[spalco]

Am I missing something? What the **** is the big deal about this story?

 

[Kwibus]

Based on everything I know about pro sport, yes, it's EXACTLY what sport is.

While it's one thing to be offended by doping, the degree to which some people seem offended and hurt by the reality of pro cycling makes me wonder 1) why you even follow it and 2) how you make it through your day without completely collapsing in the face of ... reality.

Not even the clergy of the Catholic Church could succeed in living the virtuous, pure, and moral lives supposedly prescribed by their faith. And yet you all seem to hold cycling to this impossibly high, fantastical, unrealistic moral standard that allows you to act righteously indignant when the players don't meet your expectations.

When you finish watching a movie do you flip out and curse the studios when you realize it wasn't real-life you just spent 90min being distracted by?

I think everyone knows it's reality, but if we all start saying "Oh well it's reality so it's ok to bribe others" and nobody condemns those actions then the race will quickly turn out to be one big show.

This is a bad comparison, but it practically means the same. Murders happen... that's reality. So should we all just agree that it's reality and **** happens?

 

[ElChingon]

Vino finally has his input on the matter!

http://youtu.be/Ng0HitlqNvE

 

[ramjambunath]

I appreciate your considered response re. Longo, but I maintain that Vino should not be subjected to an investigation (nor Kolobnev) - nor be faced to bear the cost of mounting a legal defense (however minor that might be for a man who can loan friends/colleagues $134,000 at a pop)- based solely on a sensationalized story in a Swiss magazine written using information allegedly stolen from one of the potential targets. If Kolobnev accuses Vino of something - ok, investigate it. Likewise if Vino accuses the Russian. But to start an investigation based on material that can't be confirmed as authentic and wouldn't meet the standards for reliable evidence...nah. But that's just my opinion as someone who's gone through an investigation that was justified. I can't imagine having to deal w/ one that was spurious.

I wouldn't worry about Vino's lack of funds, he has Kazakh oil.

Another reason I stress that investigations have to take place, not just regarding this case but any case of a brokered result in any sport, is that I'm drawing parallels from other sports, mainly cricket, which have had the most serious cases of match fixing. The stories that came through in the '90s, which eventually resulted in the captain of South Africa admitting he threw away matches for money, were also from media reports which led to the Delhi police intercepting calls between Cronje (the South African captain and not a poor man by any stretch) and bookies (while not the same agent of funding, the case of accepting money to throw away matches/races is the same) and later it led to him being found guilty. Many others were indicted, charged and banned as well. Similarly, last year, there was a sting operation by NOTW and three Pakistani players have been arrested and sentenced for spot fixing, I've posted this earlier in the thread. It should also be noted that cricketers don't exactly struggle for survival. That's one of the reasons I err on the side of caution for fixing and corruption. Flippancy on the part of authorities put serious doubts on credibility of the sport around 2000.

 

[Kwibus]

I wonder where you guys want to draw the line. How much outrage do you have for these scenarios?

1) Two rider break with one rider clearly a better sprinter. They make an agreement for the non-sprinter to continue to work hard so the break does not get caught.

2) Long two man break. The pair agree that instead of contesting the intermediary sprints, they will roll through and split the prize money.

3) Two man break in a stage race. If they work together then one will get the leader's jersey, so he agrees to let the other take the stage.

4) Weak team unexpectedly gets the leader's jersey of a stage race. They need help controlling the race, so they pay another team to help.

In an ideal world nothing. People should decide what they do in a race without being influenced by a sum of money.
Yes yes... Reality bla bla.

 

[jens_attacks]

wow,what are my eyes seeing here?what what?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/michael-creed/the-ups-and-downs-of-having-an-opinion

wow common sense!that's incredible.

 

[step23]

we'll never know the truth. all debates are just speculations. why people trust criminals who hacked someone's email account. i would think of the info to be trustworthy if it was acquired from a sanctioned by police or other authority source. otherwise it all looks like a blackmail case.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

don't know if this changes anything, but i saw some posts that kolobnev's 'silence' adds credibility to the story...

i understand kolobnev did speak up on the issue to sports.ru. of course, he denied everything and said someone is interested in damaging vino.

Interesting, I was surprised at Kolobnevs 'no comment' to L'Illustre and I don't buy (pun intended) that Vino's email was 'hacked'.
I think that a deal was done and that Vino stiffed him - if Kolobnev is now denying the story it seems he might finally have got paid.

Hey! Don't let reality get in the way of beating up on Joe for telling it like it is.

Well hold on - Joe is not telling it like it is, Tillford has, Creed has, even you have explained what is a well known part of the sport.

Joe is not defending the practice - he is defending Vino.
It is no different to what others do in relation to their favorite riders on this forum.
Joe is the one taking up the extremist position - if you don't fully agree, you're not worthy, you don't understand the sport, you're not a Pro.

No-one is looking for Vino's head - any UCI investigation (while comical) will go nowhere.

 

[Le breton]

......
7) at the TdF
...........

Obviously stages have been gifted for various reasons, so 6-8 are maybe not good examples.

I remember a famous sign language conversation between Virenque and Ullrich (TdF 97). We should ask them.
(Sorry Webvan, just saw your comment)

 

[hrotha]

What amuses me the most is the notion that those who don't like this sort of thing and think it should be erradicated hate Vino. One of the most popular riders in the forums.

 

[Kwibus]

What amuses me the most is the notion that those who don't like this sort of thing and think it should be erradicated hate Vino. One of the most popular riders in the forums.

Or that people that don't like this sort of thing shouldn't watch cycling. That's the most absurd thing I've heard so far.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Only the last, but that depends what the payment is. Contador for example gives away stages left and right. I don't think he does that because he's a nice guy, but because he counts on their support in later points of the race. As long as the overall classification in a stage race isn't rigged I can live with it.

But if it's actual money they're offering then I'd rather not see it happening.

you do realize that actually discovery channel and bruyneel paid lotto in giro 2005 on finestre to help out savoldelli. without ardila and van huffel later on rujano or simoni would've won that giro and savoldelliu woulkd;ve even dropped out of podium

 

[El Pistolero]

you do realize that actually discovery channel and bruyneel paid lotto in giro 2005 on finestre to help out savoldelli. without ardila and van huffel later on rujano or simoni would've won that giro and savoldelliu woulkd;ve even dropped out of podium

You do realize I'm not fan of teams right? I'm not like ACF and BMC lol

And I doubt Rujano would've won the Giro.

US Postal also asked for services from Rabobank and gifted Boogerd a stage win. Rabobank didn't help, so Armstrong was ****ed off and destroyed little Boogerd in Amstel Gold Race 2003. And that's how Vinokourov won

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

rujano lost the giro with 20 seconds to simoni if savoldelli was out. so yeah everything was possible including rujano winning that giro

 

[Francois the Postman]

After watching the sport for almost 4 decades, I doubt if any illusions I may have had would have been left intact. Regardless, it is still the sport that captivates me most, despite all the stuff that goes on around it. Some of that stuff I even see as an integral part of what I love about cycling, shenanigans I welcome.

Enlisting services across team-lines is one of those things.

But I still draw a line if what to me, personally, is acceptable, and what I deem unacceptable. And it all boils down to uncertainty, I think.

There is a huge difference, in my book, between money being offered for securing an extra pair of helping legs when the outcome is still in the balance, and money being exchanged to secure a dead certainty.

To me it would matter if Vino offered to pay 100,000 at the point where they are trying to escape, or if he did it after they had escaped and were cruising towards the finish line.

Deals are made all the time, and loyalties are being "bought" in many ways. But most of those deals are speculative. Riders and teams hope to convert it for whatever their long-term plan, but with so many other factors in play, they won't be able to guarantee the desired outcome.

But when the last bit of uncertainty gets bought off, it stops being a sport, and becomes a performance in that other meaning of the word, a staged play.

I am not sure what happened here, but it seems Vino himself has confirmed that money changed hands within 24 hours. I can't tell what the arrangement was ("help me get away and win" or "let me win").

I kinda hope there is an investigation, even if fully expect it would lead nowhere. Let's not make it too easy at the top level to buy Monuments. Somewhere there has to be a line. I'd hope that it falls a wee bit before proven outright purchase (if it is a proven case here I will leave aside).

That, or drop all penalties for being pushed up a hill by a fan, or for accepting a bottle from the car in the last 10k. That seems unbearably petty in comparison.

And fully accept the UCI is only offering World Cycling Entertainment. Pro Wrestling for people in tight Lycra who are also daft enough to schlepp themselves over the Alps and back, all for a race that has become too rigged for its own sporting good.

I hope it will remain well within th realms of what I can term a sport, and one with the most complex inter-athlete and meta-game interactions around.

It also looks Vino crossed a line, for me, here.

 

[AussieGoddess]

yeah I agree Francois

I find the most interesting thing about it, that Vino actually admitted to paying him the money - and tried to justify it (incredibly badly)

Interestingly, I was reading Robbie McKewens book earlier this year, and he talks about 'negotiating' with Baden Cooke over the green jersey.

He says he offered Baden Cooke 50k, and Cooke turned around and offered him 100k so they ended up fighting it out.

Is it better or no different if they make the offer and it isnt accepted?

 

[Mellow Velo]

Two already tarnished riders caught in an act that the UCI are quite aware of and which has been going on ever since bike racing began?

Sounds like another ideal opportunity for another of Pat's cosmetic crusades.
Go after a soft target, which paints them as pro active, but actually allows them to maintain the status quo, indefinitely.

For once the forum seems in accord with the UCI, by focusing the spotlight on individuals, instead of the fundamental problem.

Interesting that the finale of the 2005 Giro has raised it's ugly head.
Another prime example of a race being bought, but where was all the righteous indignation then?

Debate the issue of race fixing in general, sure, but don't lay the blame solely on Vino's doorstep.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Two already tarnished riders caught in an act that the UCI are quite aware of and which has been going on ever since bike racing began?

Sounds like another ideal opportunity for another of Pat's cosmetic crusades.
Go after a soft target, which paints them as pro active, but actually allows them to maintain the status quo, indefinitely.

For once the forum seems in accord with the UCI, by focusing the spotlight on individuals, instead of the fundamental problem.

Interesting that the finale of the 2005 Giro has raised it's ugly head.
Another prime example of a race being bought, but where was all the righteous indignation then?

Debate the issue of race fixing in general, sure, but don't lay the blame solely on Vino's doorstep.

exactly. rarely ahev I sene more obvious example of a race bought for the whole world to see but when bruyneel does it appearantly it's no big deal but when vino supposedly does it and we have zero evidence still uci start investigate.