Vinokourov / Season 2009

[lucybears]

Can Vino runs for Astana while not being contracted to the management company?

If LA can, then Vino can

 

[mistahsinclair]

Astana-Wurth was indeed ONCE/Liberty-Seguros. Astana became the sponsor of the team after the Puerto scandal (which involved Manolo Saiz), but the team management was done by Active Bay, Saiz's company.

But Active Bay's ProTour licence was discontinued for the 2007 season, for reasons somewhat unclear to me. When Puerto hit, UCI was "sorry" that they could not withdraw it, but the 2007 ruckus seems more financial than related to doping: Saiz deplorable image didn't help, but I think the idea is that the kazakh sponsors wanted a more direct control, Saiz wouldn't let them get any share of that despite the fact he needed some financial back-up to get the PT licence. It is my understanding the sponsor decided to apply for a PT licence with another partner. (see here for a perhaps clearer summary)

So in 2007, team Astana was actually a different, new structure. The management was done by company Zeus, belonging to Marc Biver.
The string of doping scandals pushed Astana to demote Biver (who is said to have withhold payment of salaries).
At the same time, Discovery was living its last season as the sponsor annouced they wouldn't back the team any more.
By the end of season 2007, Astana and Bruyneel (with Disco remains) decided to associate.

So Astana in 2008 & 2009. Management company is Olympus belonging to Bruyneel, located in Luxemburg.
Bruyneel has announced that he and Astana will part as he follows Lance to Radio Shack in 2010.

In 4 years, "Astana" was actually 3 distinct legal entities, located in three different countries. Apparently, the riders are contracted to Olympus and not "Astana" in Kazakhstan. Olympus is in charge of all the management (car, salaries, etc...). And we know that for 2010, the management will change again.
Everything points out it was the same before: Astana 2006 was basically Liberty Seguros, so Saiz held the contracts. Biver was in charge of paying the riders (and skipped the last months...).

Now consider that Vinokourov was suspended in 2007. At that time, it makes sense he was under contract with Zeus/Biver. After 2 years, it is likely his contract went to its term (or was terminated by his suspension). JB had no reason to contract a suspended rider (I am not sure you are allowed to do that anyway...).

In this situation, contracting Vino might be easier said than done. Are you allowed to sign a rider for only a couple months? Can Vino runs for Astana while not being contracted to the management company? I don't know. It has been said that Vino should run the Vuelta with Astana, so maybe they sorted it out. But legal reasons might force Vino to wait a certain date before being part of the Astana roster for the end of the season.

All in all it's a bit of a mess!

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

If LA can, then Vino can

Didn't LA announce his retirement of retirement in late 2008?
Even though "he receives no salary" (is it true?), he still have to work within a legal framework. He had plenty of time to sign a contact with JB in time for 2009 season.
EDIT: But if you have details on LA contract that I may not know, feel free to enlighten me.

Also a note on the salaries issues: there were disputes over salaries in 2007 and 2008. And while it's the kazakh sponsor's money that pays for it, I would suspect that it has to go through management (Astana pays Olympus, Olympus pays salaries).

EDIT02: And I would suspect wrong, according to this Boulder report. Astana would be paying the salaries "directly" (through the federation) even though the riders are contracted by Olympus.
Biver claimed the system was more or less the same here.

So yeah, it's a total utter train wreck.

The Kazakhs were smart to grab the PT licence though.

 

[**Uru**]

Interesting summary ThisFrenchGuy, thank you. Seems the payment issues date back to the beginning of Astana and not just with JB and crew this year. VeloNews reports that Vino will ride with Astana this week and that JB is no longer with the team. If JB is in fact gone, who is providing the support--team cars, transportation, mechanics, etc?

 

[lucybears]

mmmm.... still listed as riding Tour de l´Ain for EQUIPE DE KAZAKHSTAN here
http://www.tourdelain.com/images/stories/pdf/engage_liste_pro/liste_des_inscrits_au_03-08-09.pdf

 

[sherer]

Interesting summary ThisFrenchGuy, thank you. Seems the payment issues date back to the beginning of Astana and not just with JB and crew this year. VeloNews reports that Vino will ride with Astana this week and that JB is no longer with the team. If JB is in fact gone, who is providing the support--team cars, transportation, mechanics, etc?

The start list for the Tour to L'Ain says Vino is riding for the Kazakh national team and NOT Astana so that might just be poor reporting.

Plenty of other riders have come back mid season after bans so can't see any reason why Vino can't

 

[lucybears]

Interesting summary ThisFrenchGuy, thank you. Seems the payment issues date back to the beginning of Astana and not just with JB and crew this year. VeloNews reports that Vino will ride with Astana this week and that JB is no longer with the team. If JB is in fact gone, who is providing the support--team cars, transportation, mechanics, etc?

VeloNews does not say that Vino will ride with Astana this week, or thatJB is no longer with the team, 'expected' does not = will

'The 35-year-old Vinokourov is expected to line up in an Astana team kit. Vinokourov has been free to race since the end of his blood doping ban on July 23. His return to the team he helped organize was at least partly responsible for the expected departure of director Johan Bruyneel and some riders, including seven-time Tour winner Lance Armstrong.'
http://www.velonews.com/article/96263/vinokourov-will-ride-this-week

 

[Hugh Januss]

Interesting summary ThisFrenchGuy, thank you. Seems the payment issues date back to the beginning of Astana and not just with JB and crew this year. VeloNews reports that Vino will ride with Astana this week and that JB is no longer with the team. If JB is in fact gone, who is providing the support--team cars, transportation, mechanics, etc?

Velo Nrws actually mentions the "expected" departure of Bruyneel and Armstrong and others. Vino is racing a criterium in France and could probably wear any kit he wanted.
He will be on Astana roster but I'd be really suprised if he was selected to ride any team events before the end of the year.
I wonder if the Khazaks sent their own crew, might we see 2 Astana teams racing one event, again I mean.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

Plenty of other riders have come back mid season after bans so can't see any reason why Vino can't

Yep that's possible, i'm just a layman.

The funny part about the salaries is that Astana is a consortium of 7 kazakh companies (formerly 8) and that each supposedly pays on its own, hence why in 2008 one of the sponsors still had its name on jerseys, while others were hid by the team in protest.

Could this be anymore complicated, seriously?

If JB is cut off early, will the 2007 situation repeat? It seems that Astana pretty much "stopped to pay" by UCI standards, as some sort of tactics/punishment.

I guess we'll have to wait for Tour de l'Ain to see what exactly Vino will be wearing.

 

[Sheltowee]

Why does Vino seem slimier to me than other cyclists with the same past?

Slimmer than Rasmussen?

 

[TheArbiter]

Why does Vino seem slimier to me than other cyclists with the same past?

I feel like that too and i think it could be because of the country he is from. He is still a national hero over there and seems to have connections all over the Khazak government, so you get the feeling they don't care a toss about whether he dopes or not and in fact will try to help him do so again if they can.

 

[tretow95]

slimey vino

He doesnt seem that slimey compared to Hamilton and rasmussen i just hope if he returns he hasnt lost his aggresive racing which is so entertaining

 

[racerralph]

Definitely entertaining to watch race, in a "loose cannon" kind of way! Also entertaining in the press (such as his recent comments about returning to racing and JB can cope or leave). You gotta admit, he is a character!

With no mean intentions, you must be someone who likes watching train wrecks. There are plenty of ways to get his kind of "entertainment" they're called Day time soap operas. Oh, and BTW check todays news. He is not riding for Astana, now. And no deal is in place. Guess they don't find him that entertaining.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

With no mean intentions, you must be someone who likes watching train wrecks. There are plenty of ways to get his kind of "entertainment" they're called Day time soap operas. Oh, and BTW check todays news. He is not riding for Astana, now. And no deal is in place. Guess they don't find him that entertaining.

But the situation could "change any day" or something according to PR guy Maertens.
Remember that in September Martens said they had "no plans with Armstrong".

We all know that Vino will have his way sooner or later, later being just a few months ahead.

 

[racerralph]

But the situation could "change any day" or something according to PR guy Maertens.
Remember that in September Martens said they had "no plans with Armstrong".

We all know that Vino will have his way sooner or later, later being just a few months ahead.

With no mean intentions, you must be someone who likes watching train wrecks. There are plenty of ways to get his kind of "entertainment" they're called Day time soap operas. Oh, and BTW check todays news. He is not riding for Astana, now. And no deal is in place. Guess they don't find him that entertaining.

Well said, and that's why I said it, the way I did. I guess I should have added a YET, behind the comment that "No deal was in place"
BTW your comments on the thread have been very informative and appreciated.

 

[mistahsinclair]

With no mean intentions, you must be someone who likes watching train wrecks. There are plenty of ways to get his kind of "entertainment" they're called Day time soap operas. Oh, and BTW check todays news. He is not riding for Astana, now. And no deal is in place. Guess they don't find him that entertaining.

I agree there are other ways to get the entertainment. Pro cycling, Grand Tours, has become a little tedious recently...there's a distinct lack of flair (whatever the means may be for enducing the flair).

Some of the LA vs Ullrich Tours were entertaining...after that it went a bit dull. 2007 was made entertaining by Vino until he got the boot...then Rasmussen got the boot...the Levi wasn't allowed to win because his teammate was leading.

Since then it's been a bit tedious. The only common theme has been the entertaining people get kicked out (Vino, Ricco, Di Luca).

Hmmmm, now that I think about it...maybe doping has it's benefits!

 

[BroDeal]

I agree there are other ways to get the entertainment. Pro cycling, Grand Tours, has become a little tedious recently...there's a distinct lack of flair (whatever the means may be for enducing the flair).

GTs must have seventeen pieces of flair. Even with Vino we need a few more pieces. Bring on FLandis.

 

[craig1985]

So all riders under contract to JB for 2010 will have to ride for Radio Shack then? (as slim of a chance that Alberto Contador will be there).

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

So all riders under contract to JB for 2010 will have to ride for Radio Shack then? (as slim of a chance that Alberto Contador will be there).

Each time Astana changed his management, some riders left but many followed. The 2007 team had eight 2006 riders. Bruyneel also kept part of the riders from previous management and told he would grant them contracts. When the team folds, it seems the contracts or some of them might be void.

 

[lucybears]

googled

'Still no agreement with Alexandre Vinokourov'
Date: 4-Aug-2009 08:26

Alexandre Vinokourov (picture) up Tuesday after two years in the cycling pack, but he drives Castillon-la-Bataille, a criterion of 45 kilometers in western France, not in the colors of Astana.

"I know that we would like Vinokourov Cycling, but there is nothing decided yet," reports Astana spokesman Philippe Maertens at Cyclingnews.com. "That may, within a few days now and change, on Tuesday he will in any case not part of our formation."

http://www.wielrennennieuws.nl/comp...t_Alexandre_Vinokourov&site=Wielrennen Nieuws

 

[Motion]

First Win!

 

[Izoard]

With no mean intentions, you must be someone who likes watching train wrecks. There are plenty of ways to get his kind of "entertainment" they're called Day time soap operas. Oh, and BTW check todays news. He is not riding for Astana, now. And no deal is in place. Guess they don't find him that entertaining.

No, not really into train wrecks, don't like soaps, and not really a big fan of Vino (more of a fan of Jens). But he did attack in a lot of the races I watched, such as the Tour, the Vuelta, and LBL, so one could say he helped animate those races. And I like animated races.

As for the 'entertainment' he provides via the press, well, his comments are pretty bizarre sounding - basically he is a bit shocking in his brashness and could be seen as somewhat out of touch. Or perhaps someone who just doesn't care. Either way, it's hard to avoid seeing him in the press as all the big sources (including CN) tend to put him on their pages. I gues they find he is entertaining

But I tend to find many of the characters in cycling interesting. Probably one of the reasons why I like the sport so much.

As for Astana, I was not really too worried for whom he rides.

 

[Motion]

Vino's comeback may be much more important for cycling in KAZ than LA comeback for US cycling

 

[Motion]

Tour de l'ain - ITT - 1st Place
Asian CC Road Race - 2nd place

 

[KazakhNeRider]

Asian CC ITT - 1st place!