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Vinokourov / Season 2009

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ThisFrenchGuy

ThisFrenchGuy

Jul 25, 2009
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DenisMenchov said:
Source please, what is his team???
Click to expand...

It seems he is riding on a "Kazakh national team" at the Tour de l'Ain (straight from the official site). I guess there are some details to fix before he can join Astana ("details" could be some sort of regulation, a contract, or ousting JB?).

There is also a "French national team". In the other thread about Tour de l'Ain, the hypothesis was that those teams were maybe sort of wildcard entries to accept some riders whose teams are not in the Tour de l'Ain. Maybe amateurs or "Free Agents"?
 
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racerralph

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mistahsinclair said:
The Astana team was built for Vino. I would be surprised if he went anywhere else.

He also said in his press conference a day before the TdF started that he'd be back with Astana later in the season. JB wasn't very happy with that announcement since he hadn't discussed it with anyone.
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He also said he didn't dope, were we supposed to believe that too?
Oh, and BTW, I'd be surprise if he ends up anywhere else, too!(especially this season):p
 
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mistahsinclair

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racerralph said:
Maybe because he was so arrogantly defiant after he was busted. Rest assured , he doesn't SEEM slimier, he IS slimier.
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Yeah, he was defiant, but most are and request B sample, etc.

He doesn't need to change is ways, just needs to make sure he gets the right bag this time...like the rest of the peloton.
 
Izoard

Izoard

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Definitely entertaining to watch race, in a "loose cannon" kind of way! Also entertaining in the press (such as his recent comments about returning to racing and JB can cope or leave). You gotta admit, he is a character!
 
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goober

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mistahsinclair said:
The Astana team was built for Vino. I would be surprised if he went anywhere else.

He also said in his press conference a day before the TdF started that he'd be back with Astana later in the season. JB wasn't very happy with that announcement since he hadn't discussed it with anyone.
Click to expand...

You need to do your homework on how the "Astana" team was built and what would happen to the team if Vino was forced on JB - especially with Radio Hack in the picture.
 
ThisFrenchGuy

ThisFrenchGuy

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Armstrongfan789 said:
I though his team was Astana?
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Not that I claim to have all the answers, but on the first page I did wonder if there was legal complications about him riding for Astana just now.

He's not on the roster, was suspended. The team he was contracted to was indeed "Astana" but not the same one (JB is in charge of all the management now), and I don't believe he has signed a contract with JB, which is the only way he could ride for 2009 Astana I think (until JB is ousted). Vino made it plenty clear he was not too fond of JB.

They also may be tailoring the deal to allow Vino back in Astana for the end of this season, or in negociations. Maybe a short term contract ending at the end of the season, or one directly to the sponsors without any links to current Astana management.

Hence why he is racing under a wild card team for this race?
 
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lucybears

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mistahsinclair

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goober said:
You need to do your homework on how the "Astana" team was built and what would happen to the team if Vino was forced on JB - especially with Radio Hack in the picture.
Click to expand...

How was the Astana team built?

My understanding is that it's the continuation of the Liberty Seguros team which was not allowed to start the 2006 tour since they didn't have enough riders available (the rest kicked due to Puerto links). The Kazakh cycling federation ponied up the dough to keep the team going as a vehicle for Vinokourov to win the TdF - for make benefit glorious nation of Kazahkstan!
 
ThisFrenchGuy

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EDIT: Upon further research, it seems the salary situation in Astana 2007 & 2008 was non orthodox to say the least. So Biver might not be responsable for this, contrary to what was written in this message. More details in another message down below.

mistahsinclair said:
How was the Astana team built?

My understanding is that it's the continuation of the Liberty Seguros team which was not allowed to start the 2006 tour since they didn't have enough riders available (the rest kicked due to Puerto links). The Kazakh cycling federation ponied up the dough to keep the team going as a vehicle for Vinokourov to win the TdF - for make benefit glorious nation of Kazahkstan!
Click to expand...

Astana-Wurth was indeed ONCE/Liberty-Seguros. Astana became the sponsor of the team after the Puerto scandal (which involved Manolo Saiz), but the team management was done by Active Bay, Saiz's company.

But Active Bay's ProTour licence was discontinued for the 2007 season, for reasons somewhat unclear to me. When Puerto hit, UCI was "sorry" that they could not withdraw it, but the 2007 ruckus seems more financial than related to doping: Saiz deplorable image didn't help, but I think the idea is that the kazakh sponsors wanted a more direct control, Saiz wouldn't let them get any share of that despite the fact he needed some financial back-up to get the PT licence. It is my understanding the sponsor decided to apply for a PT licence with another partner. (see here for a perhaps clearer summary)

So in 2007, team Astana was actually a different, new structure. The management was done by company Zeus, belonging to Marc Biver.
The string of doping scandals pushed Astana to demote Biver.
At the same time, Discovery was living its last season as the sponsor annouced they wouldn't back the team any more.
By the end of season 2007, Astana and Bruyneel (with Disco remains) decided to associate.

So Astana in 2008 & 2009. Management company is Olympus belonging to Bruyneel, located in Luxemburg.
Bruyneel has announced that he and Astana will part as he follows Lance to Radio Shack in 2010.

In 4 years, "Astana" was actually 3 distinct legal entities, located in three different countries. Apparently, the riders are contracted to Olympus and not "Astana" in Kazakhstan. Olympus is in charge of all the management (car, salaries, etc...). And we know that for 2010, the management will change again.
Everything points out it was the same before: Astana 2006 was basically Liberty Seguros, so Saiz held the contracts. Zeus was supposed to manage the team in association with Astana up until 2010.

Now consider that Vinokourov was suspended in 2007. At that time, it makes sense he was under contract with Zeus/Biver. After 2 years, it is likely his contract went to its term (or was terminated by his suspension). JB had no reason to contract a suspended rider (I am not sure you are allowed to do that anyway...).

In this situation, contracting Vino might be easier said than done. Are you allowed to sign a rider for only a couple months? Can Vino runs for Astana while not being contracted to the management company? I don't know. It has been said that Vino should run the Vuelta with Astana, so maybe they sorted it out. But legal reasons might force Vino to wait a certain date before being part of the Astana roster for the end of the season.
 
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