Voeckler doping?

[Libertine Seguros]

I am not attempting to defend Cadel Evans only that I was under the impression from various comments/articles over the years he could never win La Grand Boucle cos he rode clean.

That's too much of a simplification and reeks of a biased press. If it's possible to finish 2nd clean and make tactical mistakes that lose you the time that you lose by, why shouldn't it be possible to win it clean?

The assumption that Cadel is clean is only the start of the problems with those articles.

 

[AussieGoddess]

Definitely. He took a big injection of HTFU. Unfortunately Leoturd-Drek only brought along enough HTFU for one rider. Instead of giving the whole supply to one of the Shreks, they split the supply between the two of them.

nah they gave it to Jens

 

[Winterfold]

If the peleton is so much cleaner why is Voeckler the only one to take the benefits of this? Where are all the other riders that can suddenly follow the Schlecks etc.?

3 Andy Schleck (Lux) Leopard Trek 0:00:46
4 Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team 0:00:48
5 Rigoberto Uran Uran (Col) Sky Procycling
6 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Saxo Bank Sungard
7 Thomas Voeckler (Fra) Team Europcar
8 Fränk Schleck (Lux) Leopard Trek
9 Jean-Christophe Peraud (Fra) AG2R La Mondiale
10 Pierre Rolland (Fra) Team Europcar
11 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale

 

[Apollonius]

3 Andy Schleck (Lux) Leopard Trek 0:00:46
4 Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team 0:00:48
5 Rigoberto Uran Uran (Col) Sky Procycling
6 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Saxo Bank Sungard
7 Thomas Voeckler (Fra) Team Europcar
8 Fränk Schleck (Lux) Leopard Trek
9 Jean-Christophe Peraud (Fra) AG2R La Mondiale
10 Pierre Rolland (Fra) Team Europcar
11 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale

Of those highlighted names, which ones were reigning in the attacks of the established riders?

 

[armchairclimber]

I'm new to this siteand forum, but have been watching cycling for 20 odd years. Im not a cyclist, but I know a bit about performance athletes.

I really enjoyed yesterday's stage. For me, the indications were there that I was watching a sport on a more level playing field than before. Contrary to it being dull, I thought it was riveting as all the lead riders appeared to be hanging in at the edge of their capabilities....which is what you would hope and expect to see in a cleaner race. Voeckler was hanging in there, but seemed to grow in confidence when he witnessed the difficulties that the others were having at close quarters.

Voeckler made a scarcely veiled reference to being blown away by Armstrong and Basso in 2004 and concluding that, even in his current good form, he could not have stayed with them. He implied that this was down to cleaner racing.

I was fascinated to read the analysis of the Luz Ardiden on "The Science of Sport" blog. The conclusion was:
"
All of this further confirms, to me anyway, that there is a "limit" to how much power a rider can produce going up a hill. I've given the theoretical argument why this is the case before, and I estimate that around 6 to 6.2W/kg on these long climbs is the ceiling for normal performance. But now, as we get more and more data, we're seeing the same thing emerge over and over - guys just do not ride these HC climbs to finish stages at 6.3, 6.4 W/kg or higher."

Not without improper assistance anyway. The Armstrong/Basso ascent was at approx 6.4w/kg output if I remember rightly.

I may be wrong...TV may be unclean, but I doubt it. I think it more likely to be a combination of factors:
1. the home MJ effect
2. good form coming into the tour
3. increased confidence in his own climbing ability....seeing cleaner competition
4. the "stars" operating within a more natural performance envelope.

I haven't seen any power output figures for yesterday, but I suspect they, in conjunction with times, will bear this out.

Performance at around 6.4w/kg is what you'd expect with the assistance of blood doping. Performance at around 6w/kg is what you'd expect to see clean.

 

[AussieGoddess]

If the peleton is so much cleaner why is Voeckler the only one to take the benefits of this? Where are all the other riders that can suddenly follow the Schlecks etc.?

there probably are other riders that could have gone with them as well - but none with enough incentive.

many of the top 10 stayed with them for a long time .... and the white jersey contenders too

BUT - they all have to ride tomorrow, and ride for another week after the rest day. They have to think about the rest of the race.

Voeckler doesnt have a 'rest of the race'.... he can leave it all on the road. If he bonks tomorrow, no one cares. But if he can stay today, he stays in yellow. So he gives it everything he has.

Thats why he can stay when others couldnt.

 

[Willy_Voet]

That is SO full of ****...one guy starts by saying "I don't know how he could..." and the rest of you start tossing trash talk like it was junior high school dodgeball in January....what a ****ing crock not ONE of you deserves to claim ANY interest in seeing ANY rider in the yellow jersey

****ing lops

Holy panties in a wad! Maybe I should have put a rolly eyes emoticon after my post.

 

[elf1978]

Of course he's doping. THEY ALL ARE. But I'm sure most everyone on this thread is knowledgeable enough about cycling to be aware of that. I believe it's just a combination of good form and drugs. Whatever Voeckler has done to prepare for the Tour, it's all coming together right now. His form is spot-on and he's recovering marvelously.
I'm partial to him because he's a little guy who's not afraid to mix it up with the big boys, although I'm finding it increasingly difficult to find truth in each day's surprise at holding the lead, but this race is held in France. Everyday he's leading is another day for French private enterprise to financially profit from the home-grown product gone yellow.
The GC favorites still have a full tank for the Alps though, while Voeckler is very close to burning all his matches (artificial or not). If the time gaps remain as close as they are now, Friday's penultimate stage up Alpe d'Huez will be a full-gas bloodbath. Little Tommy's luck will have run it's course by then, and even if it hasn't he most surely will give up the maillot jaune in that inferno. If not though, France will have it's first TDF champion since 1985.

 

[frenchfry]

UCI "indice de suspicion" TDF 2010

T Voeckler 0
A Charteau 1
C Gautier 5 (oops, that one is a bit high)
Y Gène n/a
V Jérôme n/a
C Kern 2
P Quemeneur n/a
P Rolland 0
S Turgot 0

As a team, Bbox was second behind Cofidis.

Since Europcar is basically the same team as Bbox (management, most of the riders) and they were the second least suspicious team for doping according to the UCI evaluation, I really don't see what would have incited them to begin doping this year especially there are many indications that the peleton is somewhat cleaner (less doping excesses).

Even though there are no French stage wins yet, there are consistently numerous French riders finishing in the top 10 and top 20 and yesterday was no exception. Some of this could be due to the desire for French riders to get into breaks for the sponsors, but they seem to be doing a better job each year at keeping up with the rest.

No guarantees, but if you take a look at how Voeckler got into yellow and why he has stayed there, there isn't a lot to indicate a sudden increase in performance.

By the way, all comparisons to the Chicken are incredibly off base.

 

[El Pistolero]

UCI "indice de suspicion" TDF 2010

T Voeckler 0
A Charteau 1
C Gautier 5 (oops, that one is a bit high)
Y Gène n/a
V Jérôme n/a
C Kern 2
P Quemeneur n/a
P Rolland 0
S Turgot 0

As a team, Bbox was second behind Cofidis.

Since Europcar is basically the same team as Bbox (management, most of the riders) and they were the second least suspicious team for doping according to the UCI evaluation, I really don't see what would have incited them to begin doping this year especially there are many indications that the peleton is somewhat cleaner (less doping excesses).

Even though there are no French stage wins yet, there are consistently numerous French riders finishing in the top 10 and top 20 and yesterday was no exception. Some of this could be due to the desire for French riders to get into breaks for the sponsors, but they seem to be doing a better job each year at keeping up with the rest.

No guarantees, but if you take a look at how Voeckler got into yellow and why he has stayed there, there isn't a lot to indicate a sudden increase in performance.

By the way, all comparisons to the Chicken are incredibly off base.

I don't know why, but when I hear the name Antony Charteau I think about doping.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Instead of doping being a main reason why TV is still in yellow I'd say its more a combination of 1) hes in good form, 2) hes just a tough competitor anyway, and 3) other rivals have been kind of soft in their attacks. By soft I mean they have not attacked hard and sustained it enough to drop anybody they need to get time on. The attacks have been coming by some, and then whoever attacks just eases up and does not try to keep it going. Except for a few like Samu. And if everyone is doping - which could be the case - then they should all be equalized in that factor.

 

[Big Doopie]

I'll take it. The last time it looked like that was maybe 1989 when Fignon and Lemond were fighting it out in the mountains, alternating between good and bad days.

bingo.

however, i don't doubt for a second that the fuentes schleck twins aren't going as far as they believe they can.

after the (dope) rest day, we'll see who comes out on fire in the MTFs.

note: i find armstrong's comments about voeckler's chances to be the height of cynicism.

voeckler's performance in a cleaner peloton specifically puts the lie to all those that now claim "well, they were all doping, so armstrong was the best anyway".

 

[Bala Verde]

Funny how people go on and on about Voeckler yet no one seems to care that Basso was 2 minutes slower than he was in 2004

Something else I haven't seen mentioned on this topic: Quite a few steroids weren't legal last year and are this year.

Which ones and what are you implying?

 

[rhubroma]

There are two options: either everybody's clean, or Voeckler is doped to his teeth.

There really isn't a third one. Because the frenchman should not be keeping pace with the bigs, if the first isn't true and the second isn't either.

Unless we can really believe that A is true and B isn't.

 

[moussa]

Absolute worst case scenario for cycling:

Voeckler hangs on and then is found to be doping. If it were Contador or some others the tour will still go on as it did w/ Landis and but I think it would be horrible for the Tour if it's a Frenchman.

 

[The Hitch]

Absolute worst case scenario for cycling:

Voeckler hangs on and then is found to be doping. If it were Contador or some others the tour will still go on as it did w/ Landis and but I think it would be horrible for the Tour if it's a Frenchman.

It would be horrible for Spain if the national football team were found to be doping.

So the government intervenes.

The case of Voeckler is not as big, nor as potentialy disasterous, but the same thing could happen.

 

[AeroAdvantage]

Sean Kelly, during commentary today on Eurosport, said he doubted that Voeckler could defend the Yellow Jersey during the Alpine stages. Most people thought that Voeckler would lose the Yellow Jersey during the Pyreneen stages. Sean Kelly reiterated his point several times stating that the fatigue of the third week and the alpine stages would take it's toll on Voeckler and that he would most likely relinquish his hold on the overall classification. Personally I have always held the view that Thomas Voeckler was a clean rider and I have seen nothing yet that changes that opinion.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Speaking to L'Equipe earlier, TV said "there is 0% chance of me winning the Tour".

He knows he can't stomp with the Alpine grimpeurs. Yersterday's stage just ended up being a fortunate situation for him - the top climbers being too spooked to really try to beat on each other...

 

[Apollonius]

Speaking to L'Equipe earlier, TV said "there is 0% chance of me winning the Tour".

He knows he can't stomp with the Alpine grimpeurs. Yersterday's stage just ended up being a fortunate situation for him - the top climbers being too spooked to really try to beat on each other...

I saw the live interview where he said the same thing.
Personally I think he'll be shamed in to dropping the lead - he knows he's made to big of a jump up to make it seem natural, he knows nobody with half a brain would accept it as a clean win (or even podium) should he get it.

 

[sniper]

Speaking to L'Equipe earlier, TV said "there is 0% chance of me winning the Tour".

He knows he can't stomp with the Alpine grimpeurs. Yersterday's stage just ended up being a fortunate situation for him - the top climbers being too spooked to really try to beat on each other...

Cunego and Basso were dropped on several occasions when the speed went up.
Voeckler never came close to being dropped.

 

[roundabout]

Speaking to L'Equipe earlier, TV said "there is 0% chance of me winning the Tour".

He knows he can't stomp with the Alpine grimpeurs. Yersterday's stage just ended up being a fortunate situation for him - the top climbers being too spooked to really try to beat on each other...

What are the chances of finishing on the podium?

 

[Juan Speeder]

Of those highlighted names, which ones were reigning in the attacks of the established riders?

The bolded should all be at the exact same level?

Everyone is equal, it's just that some are more equal than others <to paraphrase Animal (Ph)arm.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

I saw the live interview where he said the same thing.
Personally I think he'll be shamed in to dropping the lead - he knows he's made to big of a jump up to make it seem natural, he knows nobody with half a brain would accept it as a clean win (or even podium) should he get it.

At least that would distinguish him from the likes of Ricco` - who didn't seem to have half a brain.

 

[jens_attacks]

Speaking to L'Equipe earlier, TV said "there is 0% chance of me winning the Tour".

He knows he can't stomp with the Alpine grimpeurs. Yersterday's stage just ended up being a fortunate situation for him - the top climbers being too spooked to really try to beat on each other...

i already said it,he just choose to keep a low profile."i no danger" type.of course they smelled him this time.they know it's hard to drop him.their only chance is to drop rolland somewhere on izoard.but the french ugrumov is by far the strongest guy on the climbs this year,i think right now the rock star just like armstrong called him has dozens of offers.
get ready to see more of this:

 

[MacRoadie]

20 pages in and we're still getting "he countered all the attacks of the big riders" and "other big riders got dropped but he didn't", and "he's riding so far beyond his abilities, hanging with the big names".

How many times does it need to be said? The podium contenders haven't ridden an attacking style all Tour long. Zero attacks yesterday (three 50 meter accelerations by A. Schleck don't count) until Basso went with a few hundred meters to go.
When one of them actually DOES attack, and Voeckler counters, THEN we can start speculating.