Voeckler doping?

[ChrisE]

At least Lance Armstrong agree with me (on Twitter).. His chances to win the Tour De France are huge. In my opinion Alberto Contador is the only one who can beat him right now, so it all depends of his shape in the two final mountain stages. If he hasn't progressed from today - Voeckler will win the TDF.. No doubt.

OK....I'm beginning to think you are a troll with your LA statement, but I will play. I have a soft spot for trolls lol.

I was quoting you comparing TV's performance to the Chicken's in 2007. There is no comparison of what TV is doing vs the dominance the Chicken showed in 2007.

I also think TV has a good chance to at least podium.

 

[Moondance]

Your an intelligent chap Moondance, so surely your not living under any illusions that many of your favourite riders must be doping too, right?

But you are ok with them. But when Voeckler starts performing you say you feel very sad because the tour is over for you.

Is it because you never had much hope in your other favourite riders but had a lot of hope in Voeckler. a kind of nixon, "if ive lost Voeckler ive lost cycling" attitude?

Of course I'm not under any illusion that some other riders whom I count as favorites are also doping. Robert Gesink could very easily be one of those, and I would certainly say that events in recent weeks have markedly raised my suspicions of him.

However, while I do not discount the possibility of my favorite riders being doped up, I so desperately want them not to be. I would rather have fewer wins, and have those few be precious by a clean rider who I favour, than a string of wins which I cannot trust were won without the help of some type of doping. And it is my sincere hope and belief, based for the moment on a preponderance of the evidence, that Gesink is clean.

There are plenty of riders who are dirty, and who gets long strings of wins, and that is, to a certain extent, acceptable. If I wanted a 'clean' sport to love I should've moved on years ago. But what I do need is a clean hero or two, in whom I can truly believe, and Voeckler was one of those.

Until today I could also believe that Voeckler was one of those clean heroes. My love for him was often silent, I did not always trumpet my admiration, nor laud his growing list of achievements. However, certainly you will remember my exuberance when he snatched that out-of-nowhere win in Canada last year. He was the little engine that could be clean, and get wins of ever increasing quality. But his remarkable performance today was too much for me... As I have said above, I can no longer believe, in Chouchou at least. And that was a very painful moment for me.

Maybe it was the straw that broke the camel's back as you say, and that now I can longer derive pleasure from this great but troubled sport I have loved for most of my life. Maybe I just need to calm down, batten down the hatches, and tough this period out. Maybe if Gesink comes back in a month or two and snatches a win here or there it will cheer me up again; and my faith will be restored... Until Gesink's seemingly inevitable positive at least. Whether my love of this sport could survive that moment remains to be seen. I seriously doubt it.

My mood is down, no two ways about it. You should be one of those people capable of analysing my new sig at any rate. Comparing myself to the Prince of Denmark is something not out of character

 

[ChrisE]

This is really a whack thread. One of the "clean heroes" does well, so that means he is doping and throws Moondance into a depression. Hide the sleeping pills and vodka lol.

 

[this_is_edie]

This is really a whack thread. One of the "clean heroes" does well, so that means he is doping and throws Moondance into a depression. Hide the sleeping pills and vodka lol.

I think the world is about to end, I agree with ChrisE

 

[Moondance]

This is really a whack thread. One of the "clean heroes" does well, so that means he is doping and throws Moondance into a depression. Hide the sleeping pills and vodka lol.

Meh... I never said it was a good system, but either way I've had worse. No need for suicide watch.

Either way I'm going on a big round trip through ACF-country next week. First ever time to Oz. I'm certainly not going to go the 'full Hamlet' before I've seen the Great Barrier Reef with my own eyes at any rate.

 

[doperhopper]

right questions

Ladies and gentlemen, stop the idle talk and go to the relevant questions, like

- Who's behind the Europcar team? And Voeckler himself? Which specialist/doctor?
- What's the PED of 2011? There were already some rumours...
- How comes that some french buddy is doing it and others do not?
- Why Dr. Ferrari is not the first, as usual?
- Maybe he actually was (given the revival of the RetireShack Matusalems) just did not have the right customers... or?
- How about the spanish/italian doctors? Are they out because all the police/prosecution campaigns?
- What can be the UCI/labs role in this potential making of the french hero thingy?
- etc, etc, etc, etc

 

[Colette]

OK....I'm beginning to think you are a troll with your LA statement, but I will play. I have a soft spot for trolls lol.

I was quoting you comparing TV's performance to the Chicken's in 2007. There is no comparison of what TV is doing vs the dominance the Chicken showed in 2007.

I also think TV has a good chance to at least podium.

There are a lots of similarities between Rasmussen's performance in 2007 and Voeckler's performance in 2011. None of them were among the favorites before the start - and they both gained a gap on 3-5 minutes as a consequence of that. An average GC rider like Cunego or Danielson wouldn't have been allowed to get a gap like that which means they weren't taken seriously by the peloton.

I ain't comparing Voeckler's mountain performance with Rasmussen's climbing skills. I am just saying the situation and the sudden development as well is the same. Rasmussen developed his time trial skills while Voeckler has developed his climbing skills. And with Voeckler's current gap to Evans I think he will be untouchable from now on.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

As I've made abundantly clear, I'm a Tommy V fan. Do I think he's clean? At this point I don't really care. There were far bigger issues from today's stage.

Primarily the coward/wuss factor. What a bunch of Prancies! I love cycling for the dramatic and courageous decisions that riders make when it counts. Until one of the 'top contenders' steps up and starts to ride like they actually want to win (and beat their competitors), Tommy V deserves to stay in yellow for the whole f*cking show...

 

[Moondance]

What a minute can do for you.... A minute faster on shorter, "easier" stage. That´s what TV did today. So he was actually dope free in 2004, and now risks for a netto gain of let´s say 30 seconds in a 46 minutes climb, everything. TV must be the biggest idiot in the world then...

I don't think you can compare climb times in completely different situations, which is why I rarely use this line of reasoning. My memory from 2004 fails me on this point, however, I imagine he was dropped very soon on the climb. As such, in pursuit of maintaining his yellow, he did the entire climb full bore, riding as hard as he could for most of the climb.

This year rather, the climb was ridden full bore (by Voeckler at least) only for brief parts of the climb. Plenty of stretches of the climb were being ridden half-pace. Rather what I have focused on is the fact that when someone who is almost universally regarded as one of the top-3 climbers in professional cycling today (Andy Schleck) placed attacks, Voeckler was able to to remain glued to his wheel. Something Contador wasn't able (or perhaps unwilling, we'll never know) to do. I find that inconceivable for someone like Thomas Voeckler to do clean, since he fell well short of being able to match the best climbers in the world last year.

 

[Velodude]

Known (or all too obvious) dopers such as Aldirto, Evans, the Schleckies, Basso and Cunego simply couldn't drop him.
Didn't have much to do with cowardice.
He earned his yellow jersey today.

I was on the understanding that Evans had no real prospect of winning because he was not a doper.

In 2007 Tom Boonen isolated Evansas the only leading rider that he trusted not to dope.

Is there evidence or suspicions now to the contrary?

I expect him to blow up and lose significant time as he has done in the past in responding to the attacks of more suspect riders.

 

[Apollonius]

You deserve not one, but three internet cookies.

This thread shows the patheticness of this board once again. If a rider is not from your country, he dopes.

That's not why I started the thread - his nationality matters not an iota to me.

Past trends indicate he's doping, you just don't see this kind of GT performance without it.

 

[Adamastor]

If the peleton is so much cleaner why is Voeckler the only one to take the benefits of this? Where are all the other riders that can suddenly follow the Schlecks etc.?

Rolland and Perraud for instance?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I don't think you can compare climb times in completely different situations, which is why I rarely use this line of reasoning. My memory from 2004 fails me on this point, however, I imagine he was dropped very soon on the climb. As such, in pursuit of maintaining his yellow, he did the entire climb full bore, riding as hard as he could for most of the climb.

This year rather, the climb was ridden full bore (by Voeckler at least) only for brief parts of the climb. Plenty of stretches of the climb were being ridden half-pace. Rather what I have focused on is the fact that when someone who is almost universally regarded as one of the top-3 climbers in professional cycling today (Andy Schleck) placed attacks, Voeckler was able to to remain glued to his wheel. Something Contador wasn't able (or perhaps unwilling, we'll never know) to do. I find that inconceivable for someone like Thomas Voeckler to do clean, since he fell well short of being able to match the best climbers in the world last year.

But to a certain point you compare Voeckler of today to the past. That´s right then, yes?

Anyway, Basso rode 2 minutes slower, TV one faster. May Voeckler was depressed back then by being dropped so early (by a full doped Armstrong). Different today. He saw no favourite wants to race. Wow, what a once in a life time chance. It can set you free. Had my own expieriences like that. If i got stroke out 3 times, the 4th would follow 100%. Other way around, started games like 2 for 2, not seldom the day ended by going 4 for 4.

TV didn´t dope more or less or not at all compared to 2004.

And please don´t call Schlecks riding "attacks". He tried one second, looked back, rode zick-zack... and boom any small gaps were gone. His first real attack came several inches away from the finish line. May next time he starts after the line. Who knows? Good for TV.

Man, your guy is winning and you still find a way to complain....

There´s absolutely nothing wrong w/TV´s performance today. Absolute nothing. He´s on the same stuff/non-stuff like 2004.

 

[MacRoadie]

I think the world is about to end, I agree with ChrisE

It's seriously unnerving, but so do I...

 

[ksmith]

As I've made abundantly clear, I'm a Tommy V fan. Do I think he's clean? At this point I don't really care. There were far bigger issues from today's stage.

Primarily the coward/wuss factor. What a bunch of Prancies! I love cycling for the dramatic and courageous decisions that riders make when it counts. Until one of the 'top contenders' steps up and starts to ride like they actually want to win (and beat their competitors), Tommy V deserves to stay in yellow for the whole f*cking show...

I agree, and the the only dope I think Voeckler is taking is the effect of a yellow jersey.

 

[Orvieto]

I enjoy Voeckler's attacking style and I would have thought him the last to dope before this race, but today did raise an eyebrow.
For now though I will suspend judgement. Today's stage was nothing like the Plateau de Beille stage of 2004. Today we had half a dozen GC candidates marking each other and no real attacks of substance. In 2004 you had the US Postal train lead by Landis in its full unabashed "glory" hammering the pace at the base of the climb. Then you had Armstrong really attacking and only Basso going with him. For today three things make Voeckler's performance plausible:
1. the change in doping culture from unabashed epo use to microdosing and blood bags
2. the failure of leopard trek to set a punishing pace to whittle down the lead group
3. the lack of aggression from any of the contenders

If he does this for a few more days on a more combative stage, it will be less plausible.

 

[Mambo95]

Ladies and gentlemen, stop the idle talk and go to the relevant questions, like

- Who's behind the Europcar team? And Voeckler himself? Which specialist/doctor?
- What's the PED of 2011? There were already some rumours...
- How comes that some french buddy is doing it and others do not?
- Why Dr. Ferrari is not the first, as usual?
- Maybe he actually was (given the revival of the RetireShack Matusalems) just did not have the right customers... or?
- How about the spanish/italian doctors? Are they out because all the police/prosecution campaigns?
- What can be the UCI/labs role in this potential making of the french hero thingy?
- etc, etc, etc, etc

What nobody has considered yet, but may well be the cause of previously non-dopers doing well, is....

....Magic.

I don't mean the Penn & Teller, David Copperfield, Derren Brown type of magic. But real Grimm Brothers magic.

It seems far fetched, but I'm sure the Clinic will find it a more logical reason than the peloton cleaning up.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I would have thought him the last to dope before this race, but today did raise an eyebrow.

Why?

You explained youself very good of why TV is still in yellow. No need for that above mentioned sentence.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

What nobody has considered yet, but may well be the cause of previously non-dopers doing well, is....

....Magic.

I don't mean the Penn & Teller, David Copperfield, Derren Brown type of magic. But real Grimm Brothers magic.

It seems far fetched, but I'm sure the Clinic will find it a more logical reason than the peloton cleaning up.

LOL. I love that sarcasm. This thread deserves it.

 

[D-Queued]

LOL. I love that sarcasm. This thread deserves it.

I believe him.

Dave.

 

[MacRoadie]

I just re-watched the last 10k, and that is some of the least-aggressive racing you'll ever see on a Tour mountaintop finish stage. 100 meter attacks, followed by freewheeling and zig-zagging. Absolutely zero real effort on anyone's part, and only half-hearted efforts by the Schleks. A. Schleck spent more time looking backwards and side-to-side, and complaining to anyone in earshot. Several times they almost came to dead-stop, 6-wide on the road.

I think the post-race comments from the Leopard-Trek camp tell more about why Voeckler is still in yellow than anything else:

"We tried several times but the only other one that was a little bit interested was Ivan Basso," complained Frank Schleck at the finish.

"All the others just looked at each other. Ivan, my brother and myself, we tried to actually race. Towards the end in the last two kilometres I was suffering but I was happy with my race."

Schleck brothers lament a lack of aggression from GC contenders

Voeckler staying with the Tour contenders only raises eyebrows if they actually ride LIKE contenders...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Would have too, if it was not brothers Grimm but african voodoo...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I just re-watched the last 10k

I feel sorry for you.

And agree with what you saw. It just leaves me wondering if those who complain about TV also saw the stage today. I watch cycling since 1980. Never ever witnessed such a $hitty MTF like today. But it will get worse. I promise you, riders will go backwards since no favourite want to lead.

 

[ChrisE]

It's seriously unnerving, but so do I...

It just goes to show that you guys have started evolving intellectually.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

I was on the understanding that Evans had no real prospect of winning because he was not a doper.

In 2007 Tom Boonen isolated Evansas the only leading rider that he trusted not to dope.

Is there evidence or suspicions now to the contrary?

He is on the team owned the man who agreed to pay for Floyd's doping program. Do you think he drew BMC at random and just happened to get the short straw?