Voeckler doping?

[spalco]

But that's of course just me guessing.

You're guessing wrong. It's about not believing in the innocence of miracle performances.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Thats it? Besides I dont trust Rolland either just like I dont trust his other teammate Kern with his sudden claim to fame in the Dauphine. Look at the other guys that finished behind Voeckler, they normally make french toast out of him on any climb.

Now, I'm going to leave Voeckler out of this, because he's doing this at the Tour and that's a different kettle of fish.

But the Dauphiné has long been a French plaything. Many times we've seen French riders or riders on French teams putting in major performances. Kern on Collet d'Allevard, Pinot on La Toussuire, Vogondy and Sicard on Risoul 1850, Coppel on Alpe d'Huez, Moncoutié and Le Mevel on the Col de la Madeleine, Fedrigo on La Toussuire, Trofimov (for Bouygues) on Morzine and Dessel, Rolland and Moïnard in Annemasse.

Because, for a long time, French riders weren't able to climb with the best in the Tour, they would often target the Dauphiné, where the biggest names weren't peaking, as they'd stand better chances of winning.

And yes, Thomas Voeckler was up there in the top 10 of the mountain stages of the Dauphiné too.

 

[thirteen]

Its not odd, the guys here are missing Armstrong and need someone else to accuse. I think its because they missed some sort of opportunity in life or something and now are deeply frustrated by everyone with any kind of success.

But that's of course just me guessing.

Stage in 2004 was much harder and longer and he rode alone for quite some time so no wonder he was slower back then.

no wonder at all. Voeckler has improved as a rider, slowly and steadier each year. and he's gained strength and smarts long the way.

today was a bit WTF with him hanging in there, but the way the whole stage was raced was odd anyways.

Luz, i felt, was all heart and the power of the MJ... today, i don't rightly know... again, though, he showed the heart of a champion.

 

[Anonymous]

If the peleton is so much cleaner why is Voeckler the only one to take the benefits of this? Where are all the other riders that can suddenly follow the Schlecks etc.?

To be fair, they were all beaten by a guy who has probably only seen mountains on postcards prior to today.

 

[Big Doopie]

I just checked my l'Equipe with the 2010 TDF suspicion indexes, Voeckler and Rolland were at 0. I think I will trust them for now.

tx. nice reminder.

i'm gonna cheer Tommy V and Tommy D on for now.

while i have no doubt that Tommy D blood doped with discovery/usps -- remember all those "intestinal" issues. his switch to garmin seemed to be a "life-style" decision and i am hopeful he is clean now.

 

[FF'Wilco]

Simple question: how many riders in the age of Voeckler (or a bit younger) manage to become a serious GT contender in the last five years (post USP era) ? Wiggins, Vandevelde, Hesjedal (all from the same team), Horner (but he started his pro career quite late), Tiralongo (but he was well known domestique before he manage to get a top10 in Vuelta),Rasmussen, Di Luca, Mazzoleni, Landis, Sella, Vinokourov. All the rest doped. Add incredible form from Rolland and Kern this year. I belive this are quite serious arguments that prove Voeckler might dope or whole peleton become a little bit more clean.

 

[Delicato]

Wiggins rode with the best in 2009. Until they realised that "christ, he's actually close enough to be a proper threat now!" and that their chances to get rid of him were running out. Then they put 3 minutes into him easily.

Yet nobody put any minutes on Pereiro, who also rode with the best in Alps in 2006. Nobody, except Landis, of courseSo for me it's still doubtful whether he pops or doesn't pop for good on any Alpine stage.

 

[sniper]

Simple question: how many riders in the age of Voeckler (or a bit younger) manage to become a serious GT contender in the last five years (post USP era) ? Wiggins, Vandevelde, Hesjedal (all from the same team), Horner (but he started his pro career quite late), Tiralongo (but he was well known domestique before he manage to get a top10 in Vuelta),Rasmussen, Di Luca, Mazzoleni, Landis, Sella, Vinokourov. All the rest doped. Add incredible form from Rolland and Kern this year. I belive this are quite serious arguments that prove Voeckler might dope or whole peleton become a little bit more clean.

good reasoning.
but since common sense allows us to discard the second option, the first options remains most plausible.

 

[Square-pedaller]

... Voeckler might dope or whole peleton become a little bit more clean.

But the point is we don't know which.

A more complete picture from the UCI suspicious list:
5: Contador
4: Evans
3: Baso, Cunego, A.Schleck
2: F.Schleck

We need the climb times from this year and 2004.

A tweet from thomas_lequipe:
Voeckler : "Avec mes jambes d'aujourd'hui, je n'aurais pas suivi l'Armstrong et le Basso de 2004." #lestempschangent #cyclisme
(But Voeckler would say that, wouldn't he.)

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

yeah, so why isn't the pelloton all clean now?

??? And TV all of sudden dopes better than the big guys with all the expierience they gained before... Funny

 

[Carl0880]

Simple question: how many riders in the age of Voeckler (or a bit younger) manage to become a serious GT contender in the last five years (post USP era) ? Wiggins, Vandevelde, Hesjedal (all from the same team), Horner (but he started his pro career quite late), Tiralongo (but he was well known domestique before he manage to get a top10 in Vuelta),Rasmussen, Di Luca, Mazzoleni, Landis, Sella, Vinokourov. All the rest doped. Add incredible form from Rolland and Kern this year. I belive this are quite serious arguments that prove Voeckler might dope or whole peleton become a little bit more clean.

ITs not Voeckler, you also had Rolland there. I agree that seems to be cleaner. I think withthe past history, and the stories told in books by Fignon recently, I think we are way to quick to assume the worse. Anyone has a good ride, it becomes a clinic issue instantly. I think I read the time on the finish today was the slowest it had ever been.

I also think when somebody has a positive test we are all too quick to assume that its a systematic doping, or they have done it there whole career. The sport has caused this reaction, in some cases well earned. Several have come out and said that they were desperate for a result, or they just wanted to try it because they felt they needed the help just to stay in the sport.

What possible reason for Voeckler to dope? He rides for a french team, where results are nice, but not necessarily, as long as they are featured. He is the most loved French cyclist in the country. IF he had just a couple of days in yellow, then his teams and his tour is made. Everything that is currently happening is gravy and just a complete bonus for the team.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

the big question is who will risk a refill on the rest day...?

TV. Because he now sees the chance to podium... and as we know now, he´s the only one who dopes, otherwise the gap between him and the others would be the same as always.

.... of course it has nothing to do with the other guys looking at each other and riding zick-zack courses. Just wonder when they start to ride backwards, since no one wants to be in front. What a farce today was.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yet nobody put any minutes on Pereiro, who also rode with the best in Alps in 2006. Nobody, except Landis, of courseSo for me it's still doubtful whether he pops or doesn't pop for good on any Alpine stage.

Pereiro had rode into the top 10 of the Tour before though. He wasn't as out-of-nowhere as Kohl or Wiggins.

Even our man today has some results that point to climbing ability better than Wiggins had, or Kohl had (a couple of 6ths on Mont Ventoux and La Toussuire in the Dauphiné and that's about it):

1st in stage 15 last year, 1st and 2nd in the last two races into Nice in Paris-Nice, 4th to Mende last year in Paris-Nice, 4th to Madonna di Campiglio in Trentino, 3rd to Les Gets and 10th to Collet d'Allevard in the Dauphiné.

It's clear that his climbing has been improving pretty consistently for the last 3 years or so. That it's at this level is a definite shock, but it has been improving for some time now.

 

[roundabout]

Nah, you got it back to front. In the era where people are going minutes slower only life-long clean riders can go minutes faster on the same climb.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Now i know it all after reading: TV is a better responder than the other guys. Just like Armstrong. He just didn´t knew before, because he decided to start doping at the best time he could choose: at the TdF in 2011.

 

[roundabout]

Nah, it's all in the head, the knowledge that the peloton is cleaner is propelling him to new heights.

He may have also gone on a gluten-free diet and discovered ice baths.

 

[maltiv]

Well as mentioned already there are 2 explanations. Either guys previously assumed to be clean like Voeckler, Hushovd and some other french guys have given in and succumbed to the world of doping. Or...the peloton is simply a lot cleaner (not necessarily less dopers but definitely less doping) which gives clean riders a chance to shine. Given how much slower everyone are climbing than in previous years, I'll go with the latter.

 

[Delicato]

Pereiro had rode into the top 10 of the Tour before though. He wasn't as out-of-nowhere as Kohl or Wiggins.

He wasn't but you also should know that top-10 actually means 10th place, not 6th for example, he was very far back time-wise. And he got these 10th places (was it twice, IIRC?) by getting into breaks. He actually dissapeared as soon as UPS went to the front of the peloton on the final mountain. And nobody really thought that he is a good enough climber to make it to the podium or even win. So for me he was actualy an out-of-nowhere GT contender.

 

[Colette]

Voeckler's perfomance reminds of Michael Rasmussen's performance in 2007. An average GC rider, who suddenly is untouchable. It wouldn't surprise me if he also goes in top 10 in Grenoble, even though he usually is terrible in time trials..

Roundabout: I was wondering.. Who is the rider on your profile picture?

 

[roundabout]

Roundabout: I was wondering.. Who is the rider on your profile picture?

I am a temporary member of the Rebellin fanclub for the duration of this Tour.

 

[Delicato]

Voeckler's perfomance reminds of Michael Rasmussen's performance in 2007. An average GC rider, who suddenly is untouchable. It wouldn't surprise me if he also goes in top 10 in Grenoble, even though he usually is terrible in time trials..

Well, Voeckler rode top-40 in the TTs in the Tour twice, at least he shouldn't lose 6+ mins or sth while on form. Though, he was always outside of top-100 most of time. And Rasmussen at least was much more credible, being one of the best pure climbers of his generation, he always lacked enough level of stamina and recovery to be a GC rider. How he got it, is another question, of course.

 

[Hairy Wheels]

Simple question: how many riders in the age of Voeckler (or a bit younger) manage to become a serious GT contender in the last five years (post USP era) ? Wiggins, Vandevelde, Hesjedal (all from the same team), Horner (but he started his pro career quite late), Tiralongo (but he was well known domestique before he manage to get a top10 in Vuelta),Rasmussen, Di Luca, Mazzoleni, Landis, Sella, Vinokourov. All the rest doped. Add incredible form from Rolland and Kern this year. I belive this are quite serious arguments that prove Voeckler might dope or whole peleton become a little bit more clean.

Horner turned pro at 24 and went to Europe the first time at 25. Even when he came back and raced in the US he had a fair bit of overseas racing in his legs, including the Peace Race. 24 is not late by most standards.

I might add he was a little known amateur in California when he exploded onto the scene in 96. Doping works amazingly well for some riders, not as much for others.

 

[Colette]

Well, Voeckler rode top-40 in the TTs in the Tour twice, at least he shouldn't lose 6+ mins or sth while on form. Though, he was always outside of top-100 most of time. And Rasmussen at least was much more credible, being one of the best pure climbers of his generation, he always lacked enough level of stamina and recovery to be a GC rider. How he got it, is another question, of course.

Rasmussen has always been a great climber, but never a great time trialist - and suddenly he went in top 10 on the long time trial. in the previous TDF Voeckler wasn't even in the top 100 on the two Time trials, so if he goes in top 10 it will be a obvious sign of doping..

 

[Lanark]

Voeckler's perfomance reminds of Michael Rasmussen's performance in 2007. An average GC rider, who suddenly is untouchable. It wouldn't surprise me if he also goes in top 10 in Grenoble, even though he usually is terrible in time trials..

Roundabout: I was wondering.. Who is the rider on your profile picture?

Rasmussen 2007 wasn't that surprising. He already finished 7th in 2005 (with the worst time trial in the history of cycling), in 2007 six of the guys who finished ahead of him were banned or quit cycling. I don't think he was better in 2007 than in 2005, or on any different program (he was doing 'altitude training' in Mexico in 2005 as well).

 

[Delicato]

Rasmussen 2007 wasn't that surprising. He already finished 7th in 2005 (with the worst time trial in the history of cycling), in 2007 six of the guys who finished ahead of him were banned or quit cycling. I don't think he was better in 2007 than in 2005, or on any different program (he was doing 'altitude training' in Mexico in 2005 as well).

In the 2007 pre-season interview he said that he changed his training approach and was thinking about targeting Tour GC in that year. So for me, it seems that he was on different program (and the whole team) (look how dominant Rabobank mountain domestiques were in that year) and was definitely doing higher amount of "altitude training", or how do you call the transfusions...

And considering the fact that he and Contador rode Plateau faster than Lance himself-I am sure that he was better.