Volta Ciclista a Catalunya 2023, March 20-26

[Red Rick]

I don't think there's been many, well really next to none, stages that have been so optimal for VAM. There's the 2017 stage and the Arrate MTT, but what else?

Dauphine MTT, was higher I guess.

Same for the Romandie MTTs.

 

[Red Rick]

Ah, before the stage I actually predicted a VAM fest here so maybe I shouldn't oppose right now The magnitude of the fest really shocked me though. I can't tell you name out of my head but Vuelta 2019 had some very good unipuerto numbers (i.e. by Roglic and Valverde) but not this. Last year's TdF had PDBF and Pog and Vinge didn't even get close to 1900 m/h (for only 20 minutes).

PDBD has an issue with pacing and descents in it. They do like 6.1 for 18 minutes then they finish at 8 W/kg. That is not good for high numbers. Basically Pog hasn't had an ideal climb in ideal circumstances in ages.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

PDBD has an issue with pacing and descents in it. They do like 6.1 for 18 minutes then they finish at 8 W/kg. That is not good for high numbers. Basically Pog hasn't had an ideal climb in ideal circumstances in ages.

Col d'Eze this year - Pog did 1850 m/h for about 15 minutes. It was really fast and low elevation, not even close to yesterday despite shorter effort. It was less steeper but shorter effort should compensate for that.

 

[Netserk]

Col d'Eze this year - Pog did 1850 m/h for about 15 minutes. It was really fast and low elevation, not even close to yesterday despite shorter effort. It was less steeper but shorter effort should compensate for that.

Harder stage. Finish wasn't at the top.

Also with a harder stage the day before.

 

[Andy schleck]

Why would you suggest wheelsucking, a derogatory term; played into Roglic's strategy? Sitting behind the 2nd place rival whose team is driving the finish with a minimal, points-based likely winning factor may be the only way to race. Thanks, DQS for the lead out.
Roglic put in a turn near the finish to stretch and inspire the compulsive element in the pack to be frisky since they may have though that's all he had to give.
They all bit on the bait and he showed he was a)Stronger b) Faster. There was little to no aerodynamic benefit to sitting behind anyone; in fact tactically it has proven to be a hindrance to picking a sprint line in some of these tight finishes.

I agree that there's no need to provide excuses for Remco. He's supremely talented and no doubt will realize he left his sprint 3km down the road....He's strong and will be tactically amazing as well at some point.

I didn't mean derogatory term. It's just his strategy.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Harder stage. Finish wasn't at the top.

Also with a harder stage the day before.

Catalunya had very diffucult stages 2 and 3 days before (way more difficult than PN). And we are talking about 5% difference between red-hot Pog (performing a shorter effort on lower elevation) and guys from Catalunya who are yet to reach their best form. Do you really think it makes such a big difference? I don't.

Going back to Vuelta 2019 - it had some great climbing speeds on uni-puertos (i.e. by red-hot Roglic), and they didn't even get close to this (it was about 6.5-6.6 w/kg for sub 30-minute climbs). This one is 5% above very strong 6.5 w/kg (1835 m/h) performances of similar duration (they themselves are already quite rare) and 5% is a huge difference.

 

[Faserr]

I think it is just a lot about the conditions.

Gaps on Lo Port this year:

Volta Ciclista a Catalunya 2023 Stage 5 results

Primož RogliÄ is the winner of Volta Ciclista a Catalunya 2023 Stage 5, before Remco Evenepoel and João Almeida. Primož RogliÄ was leader in GC.

www.procyclingstats.com

10th at 1min 15 sec

And 2017:

Volta Ciclista a Catalunya 2017 Stage 5 results

Alejandro Valverde is the winner of Volta Ciclista a Catalunya 2017 Stage 5, before Chris Froome and Alberto Contador. Alejandro Valverde was leader in GC.

www.procyclingstats.com

10th at 1min 11sec

Yesterday a lot of riders were going really fast. Roglic and Evenepoel didn't gap all the others by 1 minutes. Even Soler could follow who is a really good rider on this day, but not superhuman.
I wouldn't read too much into this numbers.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Soler was really good also in 2017. This is a Soler climb.

 

[Netserk]

Going back to Vuelta 2019 - it had some great climbing speeds on uni-puertos (i.e. by red-hot Roglic), and they didn't even get close to this (it was about 6.5-6.6 w/kg for sub 30-minute climbs).

The whole peloton is faster now than back then.

 

[Red Rick]

Soler was really good also in 2017. This is a Soler climb.

Today is a good day for green energy. Soler power is only increasing

 

[Krzysztof_O]

The whole peloton is faster now than back then.

And yet I haven't seen anybody doing about 1850 m/h (or more) of VAM for about 25 minutes (on a non-wall climb) since Pogacar did 1840 m/h on Peyresourde in 2020. And here we go with 1925 m/h! Numbers at that Vuelta were very high BTW, reminiscent of Tour 2020.

 

[Red Rick]

The whole peloton is faster now than back then.

2019 Vuelta was good climbing times at the time but not insane.

Actually one climb that's a decent reference for today is Oropa 2017. Completely unipuerto, blasted from the bottom, and Dumoulin did the 2nd time ever behind only Pantani. I think it might have 6.6 or something.

 

[Berniece]

Did they officially remove Alt de Fontpineda from the race today?

 

[Red Rick]

Did they officially remove Alt de Fontpineda from the race today?

Haven't seen official announcements, but I've seen a few different profiles now that don't have it, so I assume it's true.

 

[search]

yeah, it was officially announced the other day:

Route change in the 6th stage - Volta Ciclista a Catalunya 2024

Because of safety reasons, a change in the route of the 6th stage of the 2023 Volta a Catalunya between Martorell and Molins de Rei was agreed. Attached you wil

www.voltacatalunya.cat

 

[Divergence]

Naturally, but that's not the point. Roglic doesn't take the initiative, but follows, at times won't pull through, to then capitalize on his mischief. It's the right tactic for him, but I can't root for such a racer. It's a matter of taste. There are those who love it, but not me.

Yeah, of course he is wheelsucking. Just think of stage 16 in La Vuelta....

 

[Divergence]

I guess I'm just less generous towards those who rub me the wrong way with how they ride. But I realize there is no rational explanation for it, although fandom, and I'm talking about sport in general, implies a suspension of reason to some extent. There is no "reason," for example, why I should wish rider x to win and rider y to lose miserably, when personally I know neither. Perhaps rider y is a lovely chap, while rider x an unsupportable douchbag? Maybe they are both fine chaps, so why would I prefer one over the other?

On the other hand, I can think of one occasion that sealed my distaste for Roglic's modus operandi, which is a better version of Valverde's (who I never felt enthusiasm for, for basically the same reason) in the mountains; it's when he stomped that guy at the P-N, denying him what would have been more than a hard-earned victory, when Primoz didn't need the win, being as he was already in the race lead and having gained more time on his direct rivals. After that I simply had no sympathy for his cause, despite recognizing he admirably deals with the misfortunes that have befallen him, starting with crashing in that very P-N, irrevocably losing the lead. It's just one of those things.

So you like riders attacking, but you also like riders gifting away stages. Does not make much sense.

 

[Berniece]

yeah, it was officially announced the other day:

Route change in the 6th stage - Volta Ciclista a Catalunya 2024

Because of safety reasons, a change in the route of the 6th stage of the 2023 Volta a Catalunya between Martorell and Molins de Rei was agreed. Attached you wil

www.voltacatalunya.cat

That’s a shame on the other hand we’ll now get a Remco solo of 26km’s instead of 12

 

[Extinction]

So you like riders attacking, but you also like riders gifting away stages. Does not make much sense.

No "gifting," in that sense, not only demonstrates true nobility, but is also strategically intelligent...as look what then ensued when he crashed.

 

[KOM]

Sure - everyone’s free to prefer the style of their choosing. I would surely like if Rogla attacked more, like Remco and Pog for instance. It’s not so much in his nature, he really does lean more towards being efficient. But accusing him of being a wheelsucker (I don’t even remember now if it was you who claimed that) is I think recency bias. He took the initiative when he had to in the past - when the situation called for it. Last years Vuelta when he dropped Remco is one of these examples, 2021 Itzulia is another. But yeah, he does that way less often than the two gentlemen I mentioned and from shorter distance which is less attractive for spectators. Though I would argue he has another type of panache (stomp) which can be very entertaining for his fans.

That being said - today was an example when doing that would be a clear tactical error. He was brought the race to him by Remco on a silver platter and it’s hard accusing someone of not taking the initiative when his approach was clearly tactically correct.

He also went on that raid with Bernal in the 2020(?) Vuelta from 60 something K's out, where he had absolutely no reason to. I think it was also in that Vuelta where he attacked over a murrito and ended up crashing on the descent and obviously cant forget his riding in arguably the best TdF stage since many, many years. So basically I strongly agree just adding some examples that came to mind

 

[Divergence]

No "gifting," in that sense, not only demonstrates true nobility, but is also strategically intelligent...as look what then ensued when he crashed.

I do not agree. He is payed to win races and not to gift away wins. Also, his team worked at the front quite hard and they all do get a bonus for a stage win, so going for the win is the only reasonable thing in my opinion. Also, I think this narative was started by the poor excuse of an analyst that is Brian Smith and it was only for that particular stage. Other times riders have been caught at the line and it is business as usual. Even Mäder himself said he needed to be better to win the stage, that is how it is in professional racing.
Horner was saying something about alliances and whatnot, maybe he had a point there seeing how it was Bahrain who eliminated Rogla at both TdF21 and Vuelta. But in all seriousness Rogla needed those seconds and I do not think anybody in the peloton was angry about his win.
Another thing is that is if you like a ultra attacking rider like Pog, he wins a lot as well. So he denies other of victories just as much as Rogla, if not even more.
Edit: Regarding your second point, I do not think the teams would have ridden differently in the last stage if Rogla gifted the win to Mäder. Bora sensed an opportunity to win the GC and other to move up on the podium and that was it. It was heartbreaking watching Rogla fight a losing battle, but that is why many of us like the guy so much.

 

[RedheadDane]

Bahrain who eliminated Rogla at both TdF21 and Vuelta

Vuelta last year? I think it's been well-established that Wright wasn't at fault.

 

[Divergence]

Vuelta last year? I think it's been well-established that Wright wasn't at fault.

Rogla said he was and I tend to belive him over some rider with no pro victories. I also looked at the video and it seems to me Wright was braced for impact just before they collided, which means he anticipated the crash and did nothing (or very little) to avoid it. I presume he was thinking this is my chance to get a top 4 for once in my life even if I have to crash...

 

[RedheadDane]

Rogla said he was and I tend to belive him over some rider with no pro victories. I also looked at the video and it seems to me Wright was braced for impact just before they collided, which means he anticipated the crash and did nothing (or very little) to avoid it. I presume he was thinking this is my chance to get a top 4 for once in my life even if I have to crash...

Several other riders said he wasn't.
And also... why would having wins automatically mean you're right? Does that mean Wright will be right once he gets a win?

BTW; what do you mean by "Top 4 for once in [his] life"? He's already finished on the podium in several GT stages.

 

[topcat]

Despite all the twisting, turning and squirming, there's no explanation for yesterdays "numbers". And now we're back to the Wright incident which has a really simple explanation.
Hilarious.