Vroomen on doping, media and nationalism

[thehog]

I mostly agreed with him - but I doubt his full honesty on this matter when he prefers to stay silence knowing that Tyler Hamilton rode for CSC using his bikes..... Too hot to mention him in this matter? or perhaps the so called "nationalism" rule only applies to Spain & Italy-and not to USA?

Eh? He mentions "the 2nd coming" & the Levi positive in regards to the US. Did you even read the article?

 

[issoisso]

And Vroomen is dutch...

 

[Franklin]

He mentions nothing about an end to servicing other teams and time to do it for himself. So should we read other things into what he says that he hasn't said.

But if we couple it with what happened? Then it's right in line with my interpretation.

So whats more likely?
1. He says something that makes him look like an idiot (Saying he did A while he actually did B, for the world to see)
2. Saying it was the end for Cervelo in CSC (Which was exactly what happened)

This is not splitting hairs. It's what he said he felt. Now that might be untruthful, but it seems certain he implied the second interpretation. Otherwise he would openly confirm that he says A and does B. Considering it's an interview you can be rather certain he wants to put himself in a good light.

[You dont need marketing BS to dismiss it. That's for the nike, addidas etc of the world not a small bike manufacturer.

Excuse me.... a small bike builder is better able to measure the effect of sponsorship than the experts (who are using "BS"???). I'm sorry, you are out of your league here.

Marketing Experts agree what Vroomen says, yet you imply he is untruthful....

Let's see.

On the one hand the owner of a 15 million dollar cycling brand who actually sponsored a TdF winner and marketing experts say the same thing.
On the other hand, you who are neither say this is nonsense.

I assume you see where this is going.

Because cyclists are human and some have big mouths, so do mechanics, soigneurs etc....

Indeed, there never has been a thing called OMERTA.

Every bike mechanic will know what the riders use and they will tell that to their big sponsor. I mean what could happen? Sure the sponsor might leave, but who cares... it's only job security....

 

[Deagol]

.........
Secondly, corruption in Spanish cycling might be worse than elsewhere, but given the corruption in e.g. the US, I don't think it's many times worse. It doesn't make sense that Spain should be singled out many times more often than other countries, but that is what seems to happen. It's disproportionate, counterproductive, uncalled for and generally gets my metaphorical panties in an uncomfortable wad.

RE Spain vs US corruption, a few points/questions:

The US president did not get involved to voice his support of the country's top star when that star comes under suspicion, as did happen in Spain.

Many of LA's biggest critics come from the USA. Do any of AC's critics come from Spain ? (honest question)

Country's biggest former star: in USA you have Greg Lemond against LA, but what has Indurain said against Contador?


Any court cases in Spain against AC or other Spanish stars for fraud? I heard the Spanish meat producers were a bit ****ed at AC for the "tainted meat" excuse, but nothing beyond that ...

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>

since we dont agree, i am not gonna keep going back and forth. I stand by my posts.

 

[Paco_P]

Actually, you're splitting hairs and turning focus away from the real problems. You're worried about whether this-nation or that-nation gets singled out more...Vroomen's point is the system of allowing national federations to make penalty decisions does not work. Which nations are covered by the examples he chooses, is beside the point.

It´s not splitting hairs at all. Just last week, stupid bigotted anti-Spainism led Germany to blame its own E Coli outbreak on Spanish cucumbers, costing already suffering Spanish agriculture to lose tens or hundreds of millions of euros, when supermarket chains reacted by not buying any Spanish vegetables. Later it turns out the problem is German bean sprouts ...

Folks in Spain, Portugal, Italy, get tired of sanctimonious preaching that the problem is wrose in Spain, Portugal, Italy, when there´s no hard evidence that that´s the case, and the numbers say the problem is just as bad in the US, Germany, and England. Essentially all the top tier US cyclists have been implicated in doping - similar to in Spain - though there are of course more top tier cyclists in Spain - so correspondingly more cyclists implicated in Spain.

Also there is an unfortunate tendency to equate failed prosecutions with a lack of intent to control doping. What about countries where there is no legal action at all against doping? One could argue that in Spain there is a sector trying to fight doping, just running up against nationalistic and corrupt influences. One could argue that in the US, for instance, there is hardly any effort to control doping. If one looks beyond cycling (which one has to do), the US is clearly at the forefront of doping in every sense. The entire US track and field program over the last 3 decades has to be considered as doped, unless proven otherwise, just based on repeated disqualifications and bans of its members (but there's Tyson Gay chasing Usain Bolt).

It matters not to unfairly dump the blame on certain countries precisely because hiding behind nationalistic stupidity is a key way dopers like Armstrong and Contador are able to maintain their commercial viability as stars. Maybe the problem in cycling isn't Spain, rather the problem in Spain is that so many cyclists come to Spain to train. It's an international problem, and needs to be treated as such. National authorities can't be depended on to police sports stars, precisely because in many sports these people serve as proxies for nationalistic sentiment. When Spain beat Italy in the European football cup a few years ago, it was as much about proving Spain is a big country like Italy, as it was about proving that Spain could win the world cup.

 

[Paco_P]

RE Spain vs US corruption, a few points/questions:

The US president did not get involved to voice his support of the country's top star when that star comes under suspicion, as did happen in Spain.

Many of LA's biggest critics come from the USA. Do any of AC's critics come from Spain ? (honest question)

Country's biggest former star: in USA you have Greg Lemond against LA, but what has Indurain said against Contador?

Any court cases in Spain against AC or other Spanish stars for fraud? I heard the Spanish meat producers were a bit ****ed at AC for the "tainted meat" excuse, but nothing beyond that ...

1. Zapatero's twitter defies rational explanation, and I agree that the president has no business intervening in these things, much less taking the side of the doper.

2. The average person on the street in Spain who knows anything about cycling thinks AC's explanation about his clenbuterol positive is completely bogus. AC incurred the ire of the Spanish beef industry.

3. Lemond's crusade against LA may or may not have anything to do with anti-doping. Indurain is not the sort who speaks to the media much. Comparing Lemond to Indurain is ridiculous in the following sense - in Spain cycling had a big following already when Indurain won his tours - Indurain's name is known to everybody in Spain - Lemond's name is known only to the few in the US who follow cycling - even winning tours never made him a household name. Indurain criticizing Contador, besides not being Indurain's style, would be more like Magic Johnson calling Lebron out for using steroids.

4. There are as many court cases in Spain against dopers as there are in the US, with similarly ineffective results in both countries. There's been nothing like OP in the US, has there? I can count on my hand the high profile court cases in the US related to doping (there are three). Remember, Lance "has never tested positive". What does that tell you about US cycling's doping controls?

The heads in the sand over Contador are just like with Armstrong. It will take some years and more evidence before the media, which lives off these sorts of stars, will face up to Contador honestly. Right now the typical article in the mainstream Spanish press talks about how Contador overcame the adversity of a difficult winter to prove his dominance in the Giro, demonstrating himself a 'grande'. It's the same malarkey that Armstrong lived off of, although Contador is less offensive than Armstrong, because he doesn't pretend to be nice, and his marketing is so amateur (the pistolero thing can't sell well anywhere).

 

[Deagol]

1. Zapatero's twitter defies rational explanation, and I agree that the president has no business intervening in these things, much less taking the side of the doper.

2. The average person on the street in Spain who knows anything about cycling thinks AC's explanation about his clenbuterol positive is completely bogus. AC incurred the ire of the Spanish beef industry.

3. Lemond's crusade against LA may or may not have anything to do with anti-doping. Indurain is not the sort who speaks to the media much. Comparing Lemond to Indurain is ridiculous in the following sense - in Spain cycling had a big following already when Indurain won his tours - Indurain's name is known to everybody in Spain - Lemond's name is known only to the few in the US who follow cycling - even winning tours never made him a household name. Indurain criticizing Contador, besides not being Indurain's style, would be more like Magic Johnson calling Lebron out for using steroids.

4. There are as many court cases in Spain against dopers as there are in the US, with similarly ineffective results in both countries. There's been nothing like OP in the US, has there? I can count on my hand the high profile court cases in the US related to doping (there are three). Remember, Lance "has never tested positive". What does that tell you about US cycling's doping controls?

The heads in the sand over Contador are just like with Armstrong. It will take some years and more evidence before the media, which lives off these sorts of stars, will face up to Contador honestly. Right now the typical article in the mainstream Spanish press talks about how Contador overcame the adversity of a difficult winter to prove his dominance in the Giro, demonstrating himself a 'grande'. It's the same malarkey that Armstrong lived off of, although Contador is less offensive than Armstrong, because he doesn't pretend to be nice, and his marketing is so amateur (the pistolero thing can't sell well anywhere).

Good points. I see the commonality to both AC and LA. Obviously there are also many differences. I don't like nationalism in either sense. Hopefully they will both be exposed after time, but I am not holding my breath.

RE Indurain vs LeMond: I though LeMond's first statement that started the "war" with Armstrong was not incendiary on Greg's part and was pretty understated. It was ugly how he was attacked after that. From what I have seen of Indurain, he is a very measured "nice" guy. It seems that LeMond is pretty outspoken RE doping, so maybe that blurrs the lines a bit relating to Armstrong vs Contador?

If Indurain was outspoken against doping (why would he be if he was a benefactor?) then it would explain why there appears to be no friction between him and Contador.

 

[porkchop_sideburns]

Thoughts on this? I think it is an excellent and insightful piece.

Many interesting points - Basso, the Schleck case, Fuentes, Contador, nationalism among fans and the media.

The nationalism thing certainly rings true, and the media is imo soft when it comes to criticising riders, DS's and the UCI but even softer when it is a rider from the home nation.

But interviews like this are a start.

Interview

There have many interesting posts on Mr. Vroomen's interview. For an interesting way to look at it, re-read the article but substitute "CEO of Trek" for Vroomen and "TDF Victories" for the Giro. Does it change anyone's perspective on his comments?

 

[Polish]

There have many interesting posts on Mr. Vroomen's interview. For an interesting way to look at it, re-read the article but substitute "CEO of Trek" for Vroomen and "TDF Victories" for the Giro. Does it change anyone's perspective on his comments?

It would if Frank/Basso/Alberto were riding Cervelos.
But they are not riding Cervelos....
They are riding bikes made by Vroomen's competition.

How about we substitute "CEO of Trek" for Vroomen
And "TDF Victories" for Giro.
And "Greg" for Frank/Basso/Alberto.

Then it makes sense - Business decisions.
Vroomen wants to sell bikes.

Clean Bike Company for the Clean Pro Team.

Vroomen wants to sell bikes.
He is co-owner of Cervelo.

Now, there is nothing wrong with wanting to sell bikes.
And if Alberto steals away attention and podium spots from other
Teams/Companies, I can understand their frustration.

Frank&Andy Trek versus Alberto Specialized
Maybe the CEO of Trek WILL be speaking out soon against Contador lol.

 

[Oldman]

It would if Frank/Basso/Alberto were riding Cervelos.
But they are not riding Cervelos....
They are riding bikes made by Vroomen's competition.

How about we substitute "CEO of Trek" for Vroomen
And "TDF Victories" for Giro.
And "Greg" for Frank/Basso/Alberto.

Then it makes sense - Business decisions.
Vroomen wants to sell bikes.

Clean Bike Company for the Clean Pro Team.

Vroomen wants to sell bikes.
He is co-owner of Cervelo.

Now, there is nothing wrong with wanting to sell bikes.
And if Alberto steals away attention and podium spots from other
Teams/Companies, I can understand their frustration.

Frank&Andy Trek versus Alberto Specialized
Maybe the CEO of Trek WILL be speaking out soon against Contador lol.

This is a shiny new coat of cynicism for you and I agree to some extent. There will be some void to fill at the Trek dealer's floorspace unless they get a real popular winner. Bike geeks buy bikes that win more than a rider in this current climate of "winners?". At least they know the bike itself went fast.