- Dec 7, 2010
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Benotti69 said:i found this strange
Agreed. I don't quite follow the logic on that one. It's not like he closed up shop, or stopped sponsoring pro teams. Perhaps we can get more clarification from him on this.
Benotti69 said:i found this strange
Benotti69 said:i found this strange
If that was the end why was he still involved in the sport, first running Cervelo Test Team and then with Garmin Cervelo?
He makes some good points that we dont hear from a DS but he aint a DS is he and he has moved on so it hardly takes big balls to say what he has said. If he said it at the time of Frank Shcleck caught giving Fuentes a few quid, then he would get a round of applause.
Benotti69 said:i found this strange
If that was the end why was he still involved in the sport, first running Cervelo Test Team and then with Garmin Cervelo?
He makes some good points that we dont hear from a DS but he aint a DS is he and he has moved on so it hardly takes big balls to say what he has said. If he said it at the time of Frank Shcleck caught giving Fuentes a few quid, then he would get a round of applause.
Oldman said:I would give him credit for saying something in context and can't assume he meant more than reflecting on the extreme of the situation. Saying something "at the time" is all well and good but I'd want to search my team for comparisons and be confident there were none before I threw stones anywhere else. That would take a little time and, as the CEO; he'd have a greater responsibility. Note that he is no longer CEO and can now speak for himself.
Benotti69 said:I could go really cynical on this and say that Vroomen is hedging his bets that the shít is gonna hit the fan big time with the Feds investigation and if he gets his speak in first Cervelo and his next project might just rise above it all smelling of roses!
But i wontand say yep better to have spoken now then never. Bravo Vroomen.
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Benotti69 said:i found this strange
If that was the end why was he still involved in the sport, first running Cervelo Test Team and then with Garmin Cervelo?
He makes some good points that we dont hear from a DS but he aint a DS is he and he has moved on so it hardly takes big balls to say what he has said. If he said it at the time of Frank Shcleck caught giving Fuentes a few quid, then he would get a round of applause.
dbrower said:I think he danced around the sales/win connection. I suspect there was a big knee in sales Ruhr around the time that Hamilton won a stage on a brand most in the street never heard of. That ride alone launched the compact crank craze. There's a bit of cherrypicking the data to downplay the results by using Sastre, I think.
I Watch Cycling In July said:National federations of any sport shouldn't be involved in determining sanctions. But national anti doping authorities that monitor all sports do IMO, because it would be prohibitively expensive to handle every doping infraction internationally.
Parochial thinking is alive and well within individual sports. Nationalistic tendencies be counteracted by the representatives of individual sports seeking to advance their own sport's interests. That's a power balance situation where everyone might figure out the best they can hope for is that their athletes will be treated impartially. In short, I don't see nationalism as barrier to functional national ADAs, provided the nationalism is not too extreme.
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Speaking of extreme nationalism, my definition of 'too extreme' is when people bash an entire nationality for something that is not unique to that nationality. For example, Spanish people are portrayed as being corrupt because Spain had no specific anti-doping laws at the time of Puerto and the Spanish National Fed appears corrupt. Hello, this is the same as the situation in the states: no specific laws against PED use and a corrupt National Fed.
In this thread, Vroomen puts Luxemburg and Spain in the same basket, but its the Spanish Fed that's emphasized. Likewise, his opinion is that reporting is especially OTT in the US and points to Leipheimer's positive being ignored. Does someone post a link to an article about Leipheimer at ToC? No, it's the Vuelta that gets the dishonorable mention.
The emphasis placed on Spanish corruption is disproportionate. It merely encourages other nationalities to feel undeservedly smug about being 'better than them', instead of cleaning their own house. Enough already.![]()
dbrower said:I think he danced around the sales/win connection.
yourwelcome said:He did say that while according to his data, individual wins don't show a sales blip on that model (even if the win is the TdF), there was an overall positive effect for the brand.
It's a bit of a stretch to argue that he's being dishonest about the sales/win connection.
Mrs John Murphy said:The flip-side is when supporters of a particular rider accuse the critics of that rider of being anti-american/spanish etc.
Armstrong was very adept at manipulating nationalism as a way to consolidate him position ie French conspiracy, Iraq war references etc
The point is that some fans are very nationalistic and do see riders as an extension of themselves and of the 'nation'.
The media certainly picks up on this and plays to this audience, and in the case of the english language media they just find the nearest english speaking rider to cheerlead for. Sadly, 'wogs begin at calais' is the motto for much of the english language media especially in the mainstream media.
Politicians/authorities recognising the popularity of national sportsmen being successful naturally want to jump on the bandwagon.
What Vroomen is saying is that nationalism is multilayered. You have the feds who naturally look after and protect their own, but intertwined with that you have the media and the fans who also march to a nationalist drum beat. The reality is that in most cases (and there are xenophobic, nationalist and racist cycling fans) when people are criticising Spain, the USA, Australia they are using the term as a short hand for criticising a combination of the state, the government, the sporting authorities, the media and the fans that support and sustain that particular doper.
Mrs John Murphy said:As for whether Spain gets a too hard of a time. It reminds me of a conversation I heard between an East European politician and a writer. The politician was bemoaning that everyone was accusing him and his colleagues of being corrupt and that this was very unfair and they were always being given a hard time. The writer responded with 'but you are corrupt - if you want people to stop calling you corrupt then stop being corrupt. Stop doing stupid things that re-enforce the negative image of the country. Stop protecting corrupt politicians and officials.' In short, if you have a bad reputation the only way you can change that is by deeds not words. The system in Spain, is deeply flawed, is very corrupt and has protected dopers. Until the system stops protecting dopers then it deserves all the criticism it gets.
Franklin said:I find the reactions on this article amusing:
1. about "That for me was really the end of it", yet continued in the sport:
Well he did start a new supposedly squeaky clean team, so saying all stayed the same is very subjective.
Franklin said:2. "As to benefits from races, I think that’s genuinely overestimated"
He isn't dishonest here. It's probably impossible to pinpoint race results and sales. On the other hand, brand recognition did wonders for the sales. But plotting brand recognition versus sales isn't easy. Usually this data isn't available. Bigger companies hire departments for this, but I doubt Cervelo is big enough to afford these expensive researches.
Franklin said:3. His supposed insider view.
I would be rather surprised if he has any privileged knowledge of the dealing of CSC. He was a subsponsor and just delivered cash and material. Let's not pretend he's an expert.
I Watch Cycling In July said:My interpretation of Vroomen's comments is similar to yours and I agree with you both. But you and Vroomen both point to an American example as the most notable instance of this behavior. If you were hoping to persuade me that, above all other nationalities, Spain deserves to be singled out for sweeping negative generalizations, a Spanish example would have been more compelling.
It's partly the way corruption in Spanish cycling is discussed that I have a problem with. When the corruption and complicity is in America, It's Armstrong, Weasel, USAC, Roll and the fanboys that are derided (justifiably IMO). When it's in Span, it's Spain or the Spanish that is derided.
Secondly, corruption in Spanish cycling might be worse than elsewhere, but given the corruption in e.g. the US, I don't think it's many times worse. It doesn't make sense that Spain should be singled out many times more often than other countries, but that is what seems to happen. It's disproportionate, counterproductive, uncalled for and generally gets my metaphorical panties in an uncomfortable wad.
Mrs John Murphy said:I think the reason why Spain gets singled out is because it does stand out like a sore thumb and it is one of the more extreme examples. It isn't one case but a whole series of cases over a number of years and also because the riders are so prominent.
The description of Spain as 'The GDR with better weather and food' does I think hold true.
If the riders were lesser names then they would probably be able to fly under the radar. And yes, there is corruption in a lot of countries - I have no doubt that the Russian fed will protect Katusha, the Luxembourg Fed will continue to protect the Schlecks, the Kazakhs will continue to protect Astana, the Brits will protect Sky and Frodo.
Benotti69 said:so if it wasn't the end, why say it.he may have meant it was the end of not being the CEO of a team and in control to ensure things went his way, but you to need make a big leap to reach that conclusion
I imagine a company the size of Cervelo would be able to very quickly look at sales sheets and put 1+1 together from big results and come up with a 2.
Can Performance Research measure how sales increase as a result of sponsorship?
Because there are so many other factors in the marketing mix, we believe that it would be inaccurate for any outside agency to estimate increase in sales as a result of sponsorship. However most factors in the purchase funnel that lead up to sales are measurable, including awareness, consideration, image, and brand preference.
The sport is quite small and i imagine he knows a hell of a lot more than he lets on.
Franklin said:What's such a big leap? "That for me was really the end of it".
It is obviously the trustworthiness of CSC. The whole article was mostly about CSC and it's riders.
This is an interpretation thing, but it certainly isn't a big leap.
Franklin said:And he says that big results don't have an immediate effect. And you know what... that's not the first time I heard a sponsor say the same thing!
This confirms what Vroomen, who is most definitely not a sales or Marketresearch professional, says. So I think you guys are way to harsh for him. His remark is completely in line with what experts say.
Franklin said:A serious question: Why?
I certainly think his influence on the team management of CSC was extremely finite. His role was simply to supply cash and material.
To make this point more clear: Rabobank only got involved with the management of their team after Rasmussen. Rabobank is much more important for that team than Cervelo was for CSC.
So yes, I'm sure he knows stuff... but if he was really able to look into CSC kitchen is extremely unlikely.
Riis would be insane if he allowed that. And if anything, Riis isn't insane at all.