Vroomen on doping, media and nationalism

[Granville57]

i found this strange

Agreed. I don't quite follow the logic on that one. It's not like he closed up shop, or stopped sponsoring pro teams. Perhaps we can get more clarification from him on this.

 

[Oldman]

i found this strange



If that was the end why was he still involved in the sport, first running Cervelo Test Team and then with Garmin Cervelo?

He makes some good points that we dont hear from a DS but he aint a DS is he and he has moved on so it hardly takes big balls to say what he has said. If he said it at the time of Frank Shcleck caught giving Fuentes a few quid, then he would get a round of applause.

I would give him credit for saying something in context and can't assume he meant more than reflecting on the extreme of the situation. Saying something "at the time" is all well and good but I'd want to search my team for comparisons and be confident there were none before I threw stones anywhere else. That would take a little time and, as the CEO; he'd have a greater responsibility. Note that he is no longer CEO and can now speak for himself.

 

[thehog]

i found this strange



If that was the end why was he still involved in the sport, first running Cervelo Test Team and then with Garmin Cervelo?

He makes some good points that we dont hear from a DS but he aint a DS is he and he has moved on so it hardly takes big balls to say what he has said. If he said it at the time of Frank Shcleck caught giving Fuentes a few quid, then he would get a round of applause.

Specialized is killing everyone.

Not fair comments on Sastre. Cervelo was unknown until Riis got them on-board. Winning the Tour didn't make them big. CSC's input into the bike making process and the colour schemes did.

 

[Benotti69]

I would give him credit for saying something in context and can't assume he meant more than reflecting on the extreme of the situation. Saying something "at the time" is all well and good but I'd want to search my team for comparisons and be confident there were none before I threw stones anywhere else. That would take a little time and, as the CEO; he'd have a greater responsibility. Note that he is no longer CEO and can now speak for himself.

I could go really cynical on this and say that Vroomen is hedging his bets that the shít is gonna hit the fan big time with the Feds investigation and if he gets his speak in first Cervelo and his next project might just rise above it all smelling of roses!

But i wont and say yep better to have spoken now then never. Bravo Vroomen.

 

[thehog]

I could go really cynical on this and say that Vroomen is hedging his bets that the shít is gonna hit the fan big time with the Feds investigation and if he gets his speak in first Cervelo and his next project might just rise above it all smelling of roses!

But i wont and say yep better to have spoken now then never. Bravo Vroomen.

Any more of these comments from Vroomen and the UCI will change is frame regulations again.

 

[Polish]

i found this strange



If that was the end why was he still involved in the sport, first running Cervelo Test Team and then with Garmin Cervelo?

He makes some good points that we dont hear from a DS but he aint a DS is he and he has moved on so it hardly takes big balls to say what he has said. If he said it at the time of Frank Shcleck caught giving Fuentes a few quid, then he would get a round of applause.

+1

Did Riis drop Cervelo or did Cervelo drop Riis?
I can't remember...

But anyway, now that Frank rides a Trek, Basso a C'Dale, and Alberto a Specialized, they are being critisized by Mr Vroomen.

 

[dbrower]

I think he danced around the sales/win connection. I suspect there was a big knee in sales Ruhr around the time that Hamilton won a stage on a brand most in the street never heard of. That ride alone launched the compact crank craze. There's a bit of cherrypicking the data to downplay the results by using Sastre, I think.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

National federations of any sport shouldn't be involved in determining sanctions. But national anti doping authorities that monitor all sports do IMO, because it would be prohibitively expensive to handle every doping infraction internationally.

Parochial thinking is alive and well within individual sports. Nationalistic tendencies be counteracted by the representatives of individual sports seeking to advance their own sport's interests. That's a power balance situation where everyone might figure out the best they can hope for is that their athletes will be treated impartially. In short, I don't see nationalism as barrier to functional national ADAs, provided the nationalism is not too extreme.

-----------------------------------

Speaking of extreme nationalism, my definition of 'too extreme' is when people bash an entire nationality for something that is not unique to that nationality. For example, Spanish people are portrayed as being corrupt because Spain had no specific anti-doping laws at the time of Puerto and the Spanish National Fed appears corrupt. Hello, this is the same as the situation in the states: no specific laws against PED use and a corrupt National Fed.

In this thread, Vroomen puts Luxemburg and Spain in the same basket, but its the Spanish Fed that's emphasized. Likewise, his opinion is that reporting is especially OTT in the US and points to Leipheimer's positive being ignored. Does someone post a link to an article about Leipheimer at ToC? No, it's the Vuelta that gets the dishonorable mention.

The emphasis placed on Spanish corruption is disproportionate. It merely encourages other nationalities to feel undeservedly smug about being 'better than them', instead of cleaning their own house. Enough already.

 

[JRTinMA]

I think he danced around the sales/win connection. I suspect there was a big knee in sales Ruhr around the time that Hamilton won a stage on a brand most in the street never heard of. That ride alone launched the compact crank craze. There's a bit of cherrypicking the data to downplay the results by using Sastre, I think.

Agreed, its a finicky bunch who buy the high end frames. Cervelo may not have sold more of the exact frame Carlos was riding but they sold more frames. He may may be one pro deal away from obscurity. Ask Felt.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

National federations of any sport shouldn't be involved in determining sanctions. But national anti doping authorities that monitor all sports do IMO, because it would be prohibitively expensive to handle every doping infraction internationally.

Parochial thinking is alive and well within individual sports. Nationalistic tendencies be counteracted by the representatives of individual sports seeking to advance their own sport's interests. That's a power balance situation where everyone might figure out the best they can hope for is that their athletes will be treated impartially. In short, I don't see nationalism as barrier to functional national ADAs, provided the nationalism is not too extreme.

-----------------------------------

Speaking of extreme nationalism, my definition of 'too extreme' is when people bash an entire nationality for something that is not unique to that nationality. For example, Spanish people are portrayed as being corrupt because Spain had no specific anti-doping laws at the time of Puerto and the Spanish National Fed appears corrupt. Hello, this is the same as the situation in the states: no specific laws against PED use and a corrupt National Fed.

In this thread, Vroomen puts Luxemburg and Spain in the same basket, but its the Spanish Fed that's emphasized. Likewise, his opinion is that reporting is especially OTT in the US and points to Leipheimer's positive being ignored. Does someone post a link to an article about Leipheimer at ToC? No, it's the Vuelta that gets the dishonorable mention.

The emphasis placed on Spanish corruption is disproportionate. It merely encourages other nationalities to feel undeservedly smug about being 'better than them', instead of cleaning their own house. Enough already.

The flip-side is when supporters of a particular rider accuse the critics of that rider of being anti-american/spanish etc.

Armstrong was very adept at manipulating nationalism as a way to consolidate him position ie French conspiracy, Iraq war references etc

The point is that some fans are very nationalistic and do see riders as an extension of themselves and of the 'nation'.

The media certainly picks up on this and plays to this audience, and in the case of the english language media they just find the nearest english speaking rider to cheerlead for. Sadly, 'wogs begin at calais' is the motto for much of the english language media especially in the mainstream media.

Politicians/authorities recognising the popularity of national sportsmen being successful naturally want to jump on the bandwagon.

What Vroomen is saying is that nationalism is multilayered. You have the feds who naturally look after and protect their own, but intertwined with that you have the media and the fans who also march to a nationalist drum beat. The reality is that in most cases (and there are xenophobic, nationalist and racist cycling fans) when people are criticising Spain, the USA, Australia they are using the term as a short hand for criticising a combination of the state, the government, the sporting authorities, the media and the fans that support and sustain that particular doper.

As for whether Spain gets a too hard of a time. It reminds me of a conversation I heard between an East European politician and a writer. The politician was bemoaning that everyone was accusing him and his colleagues of being corrupt and that this was very unfair and they were always being given a hard time. The writer responded with 'but you are corrupt - if you want people to stop calling you corrupt then stop being corrupt. Stop doing stupid things that re-enforce the negative image of the country. Stop protecting corrupt politicians and officials.' In short, if you have a bad reputation the only way you can change that is by deeds not words. The system in Spain, is deeply flawed, is very corrupt and has protected dopers. Until the system stops protecting dopers then it deserves all the criticism it gets.

 

[brianf7]

When you get a UCI licence you sign an agreement with the national body you also sign an anti doping agreement with the national body so they have to hear any claims first. If there is any medical reason for a drug it is held by the national body.
Doctors have to make reports to national body because it is the national Government. but they dont have to say anything to WADA.

 

[yourwelcome]

I think he danced around the sales/win connection.

He did say that while according to his data, individual wins don't show a sales blip on that model (even if the win is the TdF), there was an overall positive effect for the brand.

It's a bit of a stretch to argue that he's being dishonest about the sales/win connection.

 

[veganrob]

Cervelo may have gotten a small bump in sales off Sastre win. Not much though. They are still primarily a triathlon bike company.

 

[dbrower]

He did say that while according to his data, individual wins don't show a sales blip on that model (even if the win is the TdF), there was an overall positive effect for the brand.

It's a bit of a stretch to argue that he's being dishonest about the sales/win connection.

Didn't say he was being dishonest -- I said he was "dancing around" the issue, by "cherry picking data" that presented his position in the light most positive to him. I offered another point in time that could have been used in comparison, or in addition.

Yes, he admitted brand positives, but buried that under the Sastre win's non-effect; that was by choice. It's probably fair to say that the positives for Cervelo of CSC exposure were related to CSC success, and that started with what we now know were doped Hamilton performances all the way back to LBL in 2003. That's about when Cervelo made big jumps in road-bike awareness, presence and sales.

So, talking about Sastre's effects on sales, and how the Basso's Giro was the last straw seems a bit slow to the party, even if the intentions are now good and honorable. It may just be that Vroomen hasn't resolved the contradictions himself, and is recalling the more recent events that drive his current state of mind.

-dB

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

The flip-side is when supporters of a particular rider accuse the critics of that rider of being anti-american/spanish etc.

Armstrong was very adept at manipulating nationalism as a way to consolidate him position ie French conspiracy, Iraq war references etc

The point is that some fans are very nationalistic and do see riders as an extension of themselves and of the 'nation'.

The media certainly picks up on this and plays to this audience, and in the case of the english language media they just find the nearest english speaking rider to cheerlead for. Sadly, 'wogs begin at calais' is the motto for much of the english language media especially in the mainstream media.

Politicians/authorities recognising the popularity of national sportsmen being successful naturally want to jump on the bandwagon.

What Vroomen is saying is that nationalism is multilayered. You have the feds who naturally look after and protect their own, but intertwined with that you have the media and the fans who also march to a nationalist drum beat. The reality is that in most cases (and there are xenophobic, nationalist and racist cycling fans) when people are criticising Spain, the USA, Australia they are using the term as a short hand for criticising a combination of the state, the government, the sporting authorities, the media and the fans that support and sustain that particular doper.

My interpretation of Vroomen's comments is similar to yours and I agree with you both. But you and Vroomen both point to an American example as the most notable instance of this behavior. If you were hoping to persuade me that, above all other nationalities, Spain deserves to be singled out for sweeping negative generalizations, a Spanish example would have been more compelling.

As for whether Spain gets a too hard of a time. It reminds me of a conversation I heard between an East European politician and a writer. The politician was bemoaning that everyone was accusing him and his colleagues of being corrupt and that this was very unfair and they were always being given a hard time. The writer responded with 'but you are corrupt - if you want people to stop calling you corrupt then stop being corrupt. Stop doing stupid things that re-enforce the negative image of the country. Stop protecting corrupt politicians and officials.' In short, if you have a bad reputation the only way you can change that is by deeds not words. The system in Spain, is deeply flawed, is very corrupt and has protected dopers. Until the system stops protecting dopers then it deserves all the criticism it gets.

It's partly the way corruption in Spanish cycling is discussed that I have a problem with. When the corruption and complicity is in America, It's Armstrong, Weasel, USAC, Roll and the fanboys that are derided (justifiably IMO). When it's in Span, it's Spain or the Spanish that is derided.

Secondly, corruption in Spanish cycling might be worse than elsewhere, but given the corruption in e.g. the US, I don't think it's many times worse. It doesn't make sense that Spain should be singled out many times more often than other countries, but that is what seems to happen. It's disproportionate, counterproductive, uncalled for and generally gets my metaphorical panties in an uncomfortable wad.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Cervelo would still be a triathlon bike company were it not for its sponsorship of CSC.

Downplaying this is just plain silly. They pimped the RSL or whatever as the Roubaix-winning frame of Cancellara and O'Grady. The SLC-SL was the aero bike of Zabriskie, blah, blah.

I don't blame them one bit, but their fame in cycling was built in an era filled with dopers. I like Vroomen, but he may be searching for a high horse in the land of donkeys.

 

[Chemainiac]

Vroomen

I am glad to see this piece is drawing comments. It is the most meaningful thing I have ever seen on this website. His comments regarding the media are utterly spot on. I am not sure anyone could have said it better or had it carry more weight than Mr. Vroomen. I salute him and hope The Cycling News develops some "marbles" and assigns someone to dig into the dirty side of cycling instead of publishing stories about tainted victors and holding them up as though we the readers are too stupid to know the real score.

 

[Franklin]

I find the reactions on this article amusing:

1. about "That for me was really the end of it", yet continued in the sport:

Well he did start a new supposedly squeaky clean team, so saying all stayed the same is very subjective.

2. "As to benefits from races, I think that’s genuinely overestimated"

He isn't dishonest here. It's probably impossible to pinpoint race results and sales. On the other hand, brand recognition did wonders for the sales. But plotting brand recognition versus sales isn't easy. Usually this data isn't available. Bigger companies hire departments for this, but I doubt Cervelo is big enough to afford these expensive researches.

3. His supposed insider view.

I would be rather surprised if he has any privileged knowledge of the dealing of CSC. He was a subsponsor and just delivered cash and material. Let's not pretend he's an expert.

 

[Benotti69]

I find the reactions on this article amusing:

1. about "That for me was really the end of it", yet continued in the sport:

Well he did start a new supposedly squeaky clean team, so saying all stayed the same is very subjective.

so if it wasn't the end, why say it. he may have meant it was the end of not being the CEO of a team and in control to ensure things went his way, but you to need make a big leap to reach that conclusion

2. "As to benefits from races, I think that’s genuinely overestimated"

He isn't dishonest here. It's probably impossible to pinpoint race results and sales. On the other hand, brand recognition did wonders for the sales. But plotting brand recognition versus sales isn't easy. Usually this data isn't available. Bigger companies hire departments for this, but I doubt Cervelo is big enough to afford these expensive researches.

I imagine a company the size of Cervelo would be able to very quickly look at sales sheets and put 1+1 together from big results and come up with a 2.

3. His supposed insider view.

I would be rather surprised if he has any privileged knowledge of the dealing of CSC. He was a subsponsor and just delivered cash and material. Let's not pretend he's an expert.

The sport is quite small and i imagine he knows a hell of a lot more than he lets on.

 

[Dewulf]

My interpretation of Vroomen's comments is similar to yours and I agree with you both. But you and Vroomen both point to an American example as the most notable instance of this behavior. If you were hoping to persuade me that, above all other nationalities, Spain deserves to be singled out for sweeping negative generalizations, a Spanish example would have been more compelling.



It's partly the way corruption in Spanish cycling is discussed that I have a problem with. When the corruption and complicity is in America, It's Armstrong, Weasel, USAC, Roll and the fanboys that are derided (justifiably IMO). When it's in Span, it's Spain or the Spanish that is derided.

Secondly, corruption in Spanish cycling might be worse than elsewhere, but given the corruption in e.g. the US, I don't think it's many times worse. It doesn't make sense that Spain should be singled out many times more often than other countries, but that is what seems to happen. It's disproportionate, counterproductive, uncalled for and generally gets my metaphorical panties in an uncomfortable wad.

Actually, you're splitting hairs and turning focus away from the real problems. You're worried about whether this-nation or that-nation gets singled out more...Vroomen's point is the system of allowing national federations to make penalty decisions does not work. Which nations are covered by the examples he chooses, is beside the point.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I think the reason why Spain gets singled out is because it does stand out like a sore thumb and it is one of the more extreme examples. It isn't one case but a whole series of cases over a number of years and also because the riders are so prominent.

The description of Spain as 'The GDR with better weather and food' does I think hold true.

If the riders were lesser names then they would probably be able to fly under the radar. And yes, there is corruption in a lot of countries - I have no doubt that the Russian fed will protect Katusha, the Luxembourg Fed will continue to protect the Schlecks, the Kazakhs will continue to protect Astana, the Brits will protect Sky and Frodo.

 

[Oldman]

I think the reason why Spain gets singled out is because it does stand out like a sore thumb and it is one of the more extreme examples. It isn't one case but a whole series of cases over a number of years and also because the riders are so prominent.

The description of Spain as 'The GDR with better weather and food' does I think hold true.

If the riders were lesser names then they would probably be able to fly under the radar. And yes, there is corruption in a lot of countries - I have no doubt that the Russian fed will protect Katusha, the Luxembourg Fed will continue to protect the Schlecks, the Kazakhs will continue to protect Astana, the Brits will protect Sky and Frodo.

But Spain continues as the Jamaica of cycling.

 

[Franklin]

so if it wasn't the end, why say it. he may have meant it was the end of not being the CEO of a team and in control to ensure things went his way, but you to need make a big leap to reach that conclusion

What's such a big leap? "That for me was really the end of it".

It is obviously the trustworthiness of CSC. The whole article was mostly about CSC and it's riders.

This is an interpretation thing, but it certainly isn't a big leap.

I imagine a company the size of Cervelo would be able to very quickly look at sales sheets and put 1+1 together from big results and come up with a 2.

And he says that big results don't have an immediate effect. And you know what... that's not the first time I heard a sponsor say the same thing!

Sponsoring sport certainly helps sales. But you can't say: Basso wins the TdF, next month everyone buys a Cannondale. These effects are smeared out in time. For a small (yes, small) company as Cervelo it's not worth it to find out how much a TdF win exactly does. You know it's a positive effect and that is enough.

To explain further.: To find out why someone buys a bike you need to research: Is it because CSC used the brand? Is it because Sastre rode it? Is it because Sastre rode it while winning the TdF (subtle difference)?, etc. etc.

Such a research is difficult due to the neutrality of the questioning and considering the small population (10.000 frames in a year is an extremely generous estimate) upon total bike sales you would need a relatively high response (participation) to get meaningful results.

So no, sponsorship effect most certainly is not 1+1=2. If it were that easy...

Here is a link&quote for you from a market research company:

http://www.performanceresearch.com/faq.htm#sales

Can Performance Research measure how sales increase as a result of sponsorship?

Because there are so many other factors in the marketing mix, we believe that it would be inaccurate for any outside agency to estimate increase in sales as a result of sponsorship. However most factors in the purchase funnel that lead up to sales are measurable, including awareness, consideration, image, and brand preference.

This confirms what Vroomen, who is most definitely not a sales or Marketresearch professional, says. So I think you guys are way to harsh for him. His remark is completely in line with what experts say.

The sport is quite small and i imagine he knows a hell of a lot more than he lets on.

A serious question: Why?

I certainly think his influence on the team management of CSC was extremely finite. His role was simply to supply cash and material.

To make this point more clear: Rabobank only got involved with the management of their team after Rasmussen. Rabobank is much more important for that team than Cervelo was for CSC.

So yes, I'm sure he knows stuff... but if he was really able to look into CSC kitchen is extremely unlikely.

Riis would be insane if he allowed that. And if anything, Riis isn't insane at all.

 

[Benotti69]

What's such a big leap? "That for me was really the end of it".

It is obviously the trustworthiness of CSC. The whole article was mostly about CSC and it's riders.

This is an interpretation thing, but it certainly isn't a big leap.

He mentions nothing about an end to servicing other teams and time to do it for himself. So should we read other things into what he says that he hasn't said.

And he says that big results don't have an immediate effect. And you know what... that's not the first time I heard a sponsor say the same thing!

This confirms what Vroomen, who is most definitely not a sales or Marketresearch professional, says. So I think you guys are way to harsh for him. His remark is completely in line with what experts say.

I think one would notice a jump, even a small one in sales in a company the size of Cervelo. You dont need marketing BS to dismiss it. That's for the nike, addidas etc of the world not a small bike manufacturer.

A serious question: Why?

I certainly think his influence on the team management of CSC was extremely finite. His role was simply to supply cash and material.

To make this point more clear: Rabobank only got involved with the management of their team after Rasmussen. Rabobank is much more important for that team than Cervelo was for CSC.

So yes, I'm sure he knows stuff... but if he was really able to look into CSC kitchen is extremely unlikely.

Riis would be insane if he allowed that. And if anything, Riis isn't insane at all.

Because cyclists are human and some have big mouths, so do mechanics, soigneurs etc....and if Vroomen is stupid enough to supply bikes for a pro team and not do his homework as to whether that team is doping and will ultimately damage his product, he is an amateur. I believe he knew and took the calculated risk. Same as Colnago, Pinarello, Specialized etc....

 

[hfer07]

I mostly agreed with him - but I doubt his full honesty on this matter when he prefers to stay silence knowing that Tyler Hamilton rode for CSC using his bikes..... Too hot to mention him in this matter? or perhaps the so called "nationalism" rule only applies to Spain & Italy-and not to USA?