Vuelta a España 2012

[El Pistolero]

I know many people wouldn't like this, but I'd throw all the mountains out the Vuelta and make a Grand Tour for classic type of cyclists with a lot of hilly stages à la LBL, AGR and Lombardia. I'd also throw in some cobbled stages and echelon stages along the coast with a prologue and 2 time trials: one flat and one very hilly.

The Vuelta has a better classics field than the Giro. You have/had guys like Boonen, Bettini, Gilbert, Rodriguez, Cancellara, etc contending for stage wins there. The Giro doesn't attract these cyclists a lot(except for one odd year or something).

This doesn't mean it would be a flat Grand Tour. No no, I'd avoid the flat stages as much as possible and also use some stages with dirt roads.

 

[Descender]

I know many people wouldn't like this, but I'd throw all the mountains out the Vuelta and make a Grand Tour for classic type of cyclists with a lot of hilly stages à la LBL, AGR and Lombardia. I'd also throw in some cobbled stages and echelon stages along the coast with a prologue and 2 time trials: one flat and one very hilly.

The Vuelta has a better classics field than the Giro. You have/had guys like Boonen, Bettini, Gilbert, Rodriguez, Cancellara, etc contending for stage wins there. The Giro doesn't attract these cyclists a lot(except for one odd year or something).

This doesn't mean it would be a flat Grand Tour. No no, I'd avoid the flat stages as much as possible and also use some stages with dirt roads.

With some polishing it's not a bad idea. I don't think it's incompatible with the mountains though.

No cobbles in Spain though, but lots of (usually red) dirt roads.

 

[El Pistolero]

With some polishing it's not a bad idea. I don't think it's incompatible with the mountains though.

No cobbles in Spain though, but lots of (usually red) dirt roads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFO162E0wVc&feature=related

I'd include this classic every year.

 

[Descender]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFO162E0wVc&feature=related

I'd include this classic every year.

Yes, and there's of course other cobbled sections in places like Ponferrada and El Escorial, but the cobbles are not comparable with the Flemish ones, let alone with the French ones. Still, I agree the Avila finish by the ancient city walls should be a classic.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Rumours of a MTF on Vallter 2000 the day after Andorra.

23.5kms at 5.3%.

Or 19km @ 6% if you take out the false flat to begin.

I'd rather Coll de Pal, but that would be a fairly short stage. Vallter2000 is good still, and of course it's the final climb of the 100x100 Tondó ride so I can imagine a following stage starting in Valls or Olot in tribute perhaps? I'm not sure how they'd lead in to it; probably the toughest way so long as Collada Verda remains unpaved is via Arès, but that's from France; they could perhaps go over Prat del Pinter. Presumably this will be after Toses; don't know if they'll head there directly from La Seu d'Urgell or if they'll go the other way from Andorra la Vella, go over Port d'Envalira and then descend via Puigcerdà to Toses. If they did Port d'Envalira, they could then do Toses (preferably including La Molina to add a bit more steeper climbing), Merolla and finish off on the Coll de Pal for a great Pyrenean stage.

 

[El Pistolero]

Yes, and there's of course other cobbled sections in places like Ponferrada and El Escorial, but the cobbles are not comparable with the Flemish ones, let alone with the French ones. Still, I agree the Avila finish by the ancient city walls should be a classic.

It just needs some cobbles, these are good enough

 

[karlboss]

Like the idea, I always like the idea of GC riders being able to do more than one thing. I really like the idea of making a truly balanced GT where through a variety of ideas anyone could win, if they are good enough. Tough to do, take cancellara for example, how flat do the mountains have to be, and tough the classics stages, before the time balance is even between him and the usual GC contender? Remembering how classic days are ridden in tours as opposed to one day races.

Have you taken a shot at this in the race design thread?

 

[Lupetto]

Rumours of a MTF on Vallter 2000 the day after Andorra.

23.5kms at 5.3%.

Plataformarecorridosciclistas has a great idea for Vallter 2000. They suggest to ride the unpaved Collada Fonda before Vallter.

 

[Kvinto]

They rebranded the Vuelta jerseys. It's ok about that. I guess the most important thing is not to compare the Vuelta with the TdF and the Giro gloss and shine. It's a bit different race, not so full of heart for most of cycling fans, but still very prestigious. That's it.

Sure it is prestigious in some ways, even me (who rates one day races higher than tours) admits that a three weeks marathon on bicycles is worth something, but you simply CAN'T abstract away from a "comparison" at all. The comparison is a key part of evaluation, while the evaluation makes the difference between "very prestigious" and "ain't worth ****". People just choose the different points of comparison which leads to the different conclusions and in the end we have two inferences about the Vuelta (both true): "a prestigious race" and "the weakest GT". The second one sounds more convincing for me, but the doing of this choice is up to everyone.

I know many people wouldn't like this, but I'd throw all the mountains out the Vuelta and make a Grand Tour for classic type of cyclists with a lot of hilly stages à la LBL, AGR and Lombardia. I'd also throw in some cobbled stages and echelon stages along the coast with a prologue and 2 time trials: one flat and one very hilly.

The Vuelta has a better classics field than the Giro. You have/had guys like Boonen, Bettini, Gilbert, Rodriguez, Cancellara, etc contending for stage wins there. The Giro doesn't attract these cyclists a lot(except for one odd year or something).

This doesn't mean it would be a flat Grand Tour. No no, I'd avoid the flat stages as much as possible and also use some stages with dirt roads.

The weakest point of your idea is that you can't fully avoid the use of mountains in the tour of Pyrenean country. It's good for the weeklong tours in Belgium, the Netherlands, it approved itself good (i mean a hilly classic course) in Tirreno, Volta Catalunya 2010 is the great example, Pais Vasco is also good enough in this case...
In a GT you can draw a course with an extended number of hilly (or paved/gravel sometimes) stages (perhaps instead of the medium mountain stages). I would also like to avoid the mtfs (you can make beautiful mountain stages with kms of climbing but without mtfs, a mtf on a long climb reduces the competition to the very best climbers who usually start their showdown only on the last kms of the final ascent, i guess knowing about a downhill/flat section would force climbers to attack earlier) but such a formula requires no long flat tts...
It's easy to imagine but hard to realize

 

[El Pistolero]

Sure it is prestigious in some ways, even me (who rates one day races higher than tours) admits that a three weeks marathon on bicycles is worth something, but you simply CAN'T abstract away from a "comparison" at all. The comparison is a key part of evaluation, while the evaluation makes the difference between "very prestigious" and "ain't worth ****". People just choose the different points of comparison which leads to the different conclusions and in the end we have two inferences about the Vuelta (both true): "a prestigious race" and "the weakest GT". The second one sounds more convincing for me, but the doing of this choice is up to everyone.



The weakest point of your idea is that you can't fully avoid the use of mountains in the tour of Pyrenean country. It's good for the weeklong tours in Belgium, the Netherlands, it approved itself good (i mean a hilly classic course) in Tirreno, Volta Catalunya 2010 is the great example, Pais Vasco is also good enough in this case...
In a GT you can draw a course with an extended number of hilly (or paved/gravel sometimes) stages (perhaps instead of the medium mountain stages). I would also like to avoid the mtfs (you can make beautiful mountain stages with kms of climbing but without mtfs, a mtf on a long climb reduces the competition to the very best climbers who usually start their showdown only on the last kms of the final ascent, i guess knowing about a downhill/flat section would force climbers to attack earlier) but such a formula requires no long flat tts...
It's easy to imagine but hard to realize

Lombardia would be classified as a mountain stage in Grand Tours to be honest. I'd have some mountains included, but never finish on a MTF. There would definitely be mountains in it, but not at decisive points of the race.

 

[Kvinto]

Lombardia would be classified as a mountain stage in Grand Tours to be honest. I'd have some mountains included, but never finish on a MTF. There would definitely be mountains in it, but not at decisive points of the race.

Imo in terms of Giro it would be a medium mountain stage (though the ammount of climbing is really huge for a classic), but it's not so important. The main point is that its (Lombardia's) climbing doesn't lead to a climbing finish but to a classic one, this peculiarity makes it more interesting than most of the GT stages with finishes above 2000m.

 

[Mellow Velo]

I know many people wouldn't like this, but I'd throw all the mountains out the Vuelta and make a Grand Tour for classic type of cyclists with a lot of hilly stages à la LBL, AGR and Lombardia. I'd also throw in some cobbled stages and echelon stages along the coast with a prologue and 2 time trials: one flat and one very hilly.

The Vuelta has a better classics field than the Giro. You have/had guys like Boonen, Bettini, Gilbert, Rodriguez, Cancellara, etc contending for stage wins there. The Giro doesn't attract these cyclists a lot(except for one odd year or something).

This doesn't mean it would be a flat Grand Tour. No no, I'd avoid the flat stages as much as possible and also use some stages with dirt roads.

I too think it's a good idea for the Vuelta.
Nice of Mr Prudhomme and the ASO boys to give this "new format" a trial run at next year's Tour.

 

[Arnout]

Except in Spain most people are, more than anywhere else, only interested in climbers.

 

[theyoungest]

I know many people wouldn't like this, but I'd throw all the mountains out the Vuelta and make a Grand Tour for classic type of cyclists with a lot of hilly stages à la LBL, AGR and Lombardia. I'd also throw in some cobbled stages and echelon stages along the coast with a prologue and 2 time trials: one flat and one very hilly.

The Vuelta has a better classics field than the Giro. You have/had guys like Boonen, Bettini, Gilbert, Rodriguez, Cancellara, etc contending for stage wins there. The Giro doesn't attract these cyclists a lot(except for one odd year or something).

This doesn't mean it would be a flat Grand Tour. No no, I'd avoid the flat stages as much as possible and also use some stages with dirt roads.

F#&k, how desperate are you for Philly Gilly to win a Grand Tour?

 

[jens_attacks]

what a lame idea.vuelta just needs zomegnan or libertine.

olano will make a comeback in february just to win the vuelta designed by him

 

[airstream]

Yeah. It would be better to cancel it than to turn into the race for classics specialists.

 

[El Pistolero]

F#&k, how desperate are you for Philly Gilly to win a Grand Tour?

As if Gilbert would win a Grand Tour with a prologue and 2 long time trials(50k+)

I'm just sick and tired of these boring mountain stages in the Vuelta, so why not get rid of them all together. The cyclists will never show up at the Vuelta if they start using mountain stages like the Giro anyway.

Besides, Vuelta is just small fish. Grand Tour in name only as far as I'm concerned.

 

[El Pistolero]

what a lame idea.vuelta just needs zomegnan or libertine.

olano will make a comeback in february just to win the vuelta designed by him

Vuelta with Giro route= everyone skipping the Vuelta

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Vuelta with Giro route= everyone skipping the Vuelta

So? Just invite the teams that really want to race it. And **** the WorldTour.

Its place on the calendar is the biggest problem, making it a prep race first and foremost. That has to change first. Or change the date of the Worlds as someone suggested.

 

[El Pistolero]

So? Just invite the teams that really want to race it. And **** the WorldTour.

Its place on the calendar is the biggest problem, making it a prep race first and foremost. That has to change first. Or change the date of the Worlds as someone suggested.

Then you'll have a couple of bad cyclists winning this "Grand Tour". The Vuelta is just one too many, always has been.

And as if the Worlds is the only reason why the Vuelta sucks so much... Most of the time GT contenders don't even bother at the Worlds... Where were the Schlecks, Contador, Samu Sanchez, Cadel Evans, Cunego, Basso, etc at the Vuelta/Worlds?

I know Franki boy rode the Worlds, but he obviously didn't take it all that seriously.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Besides, Vuelta is just small fish. Grand Tour in name only as far as I'm concerned.

That may be the case, but its a necessary "entry level" grand tour. The guys who top-10 the Vuelta can usually be seen as riders who on the rise; new faces often emerge. New riders need the experience of 3 weeks before going into three weeks of brutal climbs (Giro) or 3 weeks of tension and speed (Tour, not that they're exclusive).

What other categories besides brutal and prestige can we use to define a Grand Tour that aren't already taken? Was it the last one or 2008 that wanted to design a route around consistency?

 

[El Pistolero]

That may be the case, but its a necessary "entry level" grand tour. The guys who podium the Vuelta can usually be seen as riders who on the rise. New riders need the experience of 3 weeks before going into three weeks of brutal climbs (Giro) or 3 weeks of tension and speed (Tour, not that they're exclusive).

What other categories besides brutal and prestige can we use to define a Grand Tour that aren't already taken? Was it the last one or 2008 that wanted to design a route around consistency?

2008 was a pretty horrible route.
The best GT contenders of this generation broke through in either the Giro or the Tour. Contador, Schlecks, Evans, Basso, Ricco, etc

2008 podium:

Contador(already a star)
Leipheimer(already a star)
Sastre(already a star)

2009 podium

Valverde(big star already)
Samuel Sanchez(already star)
Cadel Evans(already a star with a crappy palmares)

2010 podium

Nibali(already broke through)
Mozquera(ancient old, already did a few good Vuelta's, doped)
Peter Velits(what's he doing in third place?)

 

[theyoungest]

As if Gilbert would win a Grand Tour with a prologue and 2 long time trials(50k+)

Gilbert isn't that bad in long time trials.

(and it's funny you should think so, about the Belgian TT champion )

 

[El Pistolero]

Gilbert isn't that bad in long time trials.

(and it's funny you should think so, about the Belgian TT champion )

But still, it would most likely be won by someone like Cancellara(he'd lose weight if he saw such a GT IMO), Tony Martin, Cadel Evans, Contador, etc

Belgian tt championship is a disgrace Curious to see him in the champ outfit for the time trial though. Qatar/Oman will probably be the first time.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Then you'll have a couple of bad cyclists winning this "Grand Tour". The Vuelta is just one too many, always has been.

And as if the Worlds is the only reason why the Vuelta sucks so much... Most of the time GT contenders don't even bother at the Worlds... Where were the Schlecks, Contador, Samu Sanchez, Cadel Evans, Cunego, Basso, etc at the Vuelta/Worlds?

I know Franki boy rode the Worlds, but he obviously didn't take it all that seriously.

Evans, Sanchez, Cunego, Rodriguez, Valverde and Basso did the Vuelta/Worlds double in 2009. Though guys like Cunego weren't there for GC.

As long as it's in Europe and the course isn't a complete joke people will show up. Contador being one of the exceptions.