Vuelta a España 2012

[El Pistolero]

OK, this year was a bit of a letdown given the high pace of the diesels and the disappointing performances of the goats. But Peña Cabarga was great. And this year's Tour may have served us utter garbage in terms of the GC battle for two weeks, but the final week was great. Accepted.

But Luz Ardiden and Plateau de Beille were no better than any of the Vuelta mountaintops, and the Giro this year was a procession. So let's try another year.

OK, 2010 it is. The Giro had a topsy turvy GC which created some amazing racing the Vuelta would find it hard to compete with. The Tour had one really good mountain stage (Col de la Madeleine), but the rest of the time it was all track stands and bromance. The Tourmalet sure didn't compete with Bola del Mundo for me, Cotobello was a pretty good finish too, and Peña Cabarga, but Covadonga was a letdown. Pal was mystifyingly good because that's a stage that had every right to suck.

2009 then, and that much-derided, much-mocked Vuelta where the GC guys just caved in in week 3 and let Caisse let the break go over and over. And yet, with Valverde's comeback fight on La Pandera, the heroics of Xorret del Catí and the drama of Sierra Nevada, there was still enough to compete with the dreadful Tour route, where Contador waltzed away from a GC mix that acted like he wasn't there on Arcalis, then on Verbier we got a bit of action, then we got a great stage to Le Grand Bornand.

The biggest problem with the Vuelta for me is:
- too many one-climb stages designed for 'youtube cycling', where the MTF is an end unto itself rather than a means to an end; the problem is that the field of sprinters and classics men is dependent on the Worlds course so in a flattish year they don't want to make it too hard and dissuade them from coming, but they still want to create GC gaps, so they go for the easy way out
- if something works, they don't think "how can I apply this elsewhere in my route", they think "let's do that again". Immediately. Hence Xorret del Catí 2009-10, Peña Cabarga and Valdepeñas de Jaén 2010-11... probably the Basque Country 2011-12 (who wants to bet on the Alto El Vivero being used again? For my money it'd be better to climb it from Lezama and finish in Galdakao, but they'll probably do Galdakao-El Vivero-Bilbao again).

Let's add the camera quality on that list. Unless you Spanish/Portuguese get better quality somehow. Such a difference between the Tour/classics and the Vuelta... The Giro is okish, but crappy quality sometimes because of the high mountains they frequently visit.

 

[El Pistolero]

Giro-Tour is a bigger achievement. Part of that is the prestige of the event, part of that is the higher average speed of the Tour péloton; therefore it's harder to be at sub-optimal form in the Tour péloton after peaking at the Giro, than it would be to be at peak form for the Tour at high speed, and still be able to be competitive at the Vuelta with its lower average speed (especially if you're used to racing in the heat). Hence, for example, Sastre 4th & 2nd in 2007, 1st & 3rd in 2008; Valverde 6th & 5th in 2008; Evans 2nd & 4th in 2007; Contador managed 1st & 5th in the Giro-Tour this year of course, probably the closest to Sastre's two podiums in '08, but he's a better cyclist than Sastre.

I'd say it's better because he would have probably been on the Tour podium without the crash on stage 1 and the team time trial. Of course Tour > Giro, but when the Tour doesn't allow the best climber to start it drops a little in prestige for that year in my eyes

I just don't think it's healthy for the Vuelta that a Spanish cyclist says he loves the Giro more than the Vuelta(Contador). It's like a Belgian cyclist saying he rates Lombardia or Milan-San Remo over Ronde van Vlaanderen/LBL/Roubaix(French Flanders).

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I'd say it's better because he would have probably been on the Tour podium without the crash on stage 1 and the team time trial.

This is my point.

Contador's effort, on paper, looks to be worse than Sastre's (1st & 5th vs. 1st & 3rd, with Sastre winning the "superior" GT).

But Contador went seriously into the red for that 5th place, and Contador is a more gifted cyclist than Sastre. Ergo: it is easier to compile results by going Tour-Vuelta than Giro-Tour, otherwise Contador's achievements would at least match his compatriots, given that we make the assumption Contador is at least as talented as Sastre (which I know you won't disagree with).

 

[The Hitch]

I just don't think it's healthy for the Vuelta that a Spanish cyclist says he loves the Giro more than the Vuelta(Contador). It's like a Belgian cyclist saying he rates Lombardia or Milan-San Remo over Ronde van Vlaanderen/LBL/Roubaix(French Flanders).

Some American tennis players say they prefer Wimbledon to the US Open.

Does that make the US Open not a Grand Slam?

Yes the Giro is bigger than the Vuelta.

And now you inform us that Contador is of the same opinion.

We are really breaking some serious ground here

 

[El Pistolero]

Some American tennis players say they prefer Wimbledon to the US Open.

Does that make the US Open not a Grand Slam?

Yes the Giro is bigger than the Vuelta.

And now you inform us that Contador is of the same opinion.

We are really breaking some serious ground here

Wimbledon is the Tour de France of tennis. Nice example. Good luck finding a Spanish cyclist rating the Vuelta over the Tour.

And yeah, the Vuelta is a GT. I just prefer calling it a lesser Grand Tour.

 

[The Hitch]

Wimbledon is the Tour de France of tennis. Nice example.

The only one neither Justine nor Kim ever won

And yeah, the Vuelta is a GT. I just prefer calling it a lesser Grand Tour.
.

Good to see you've succumbed to reason and acknowledged its more than a "Grand Tour in name only".

 

[El Pistolero]

The only one neither Justine nor Kim ever won



Good to see you've succumbed to reason and acknowledged its more than a "Grand Tour in name only".

Kim will win next year

Justine won the Olympics though and it's Kim's biggest goal for next year, so I'm taking an educated guess and think she rates that one higher.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Wimbledon is the Tour de France of tennis. Nice example. Good luck finding a Spanish cyclist rating the Vuelta over the Tour.

And yeah, the Vuelta is a GT. I just prefer calling it a lesser Grand Tour.

I dislike the need to belittle the vuelta. Sure it isn't as good as the other races, but winning it is still a very big deal, and it is still a big race.

And yeah, El Pickle is a poster. I just prefer calling him a lesser Poster.

 

[El Pistolero]

I dislike the need to belittle the vuelta. Sure it isn't as good as the other races, but winning it is still a very big deal, and it is still a big race.

And yeah, El Pickle is a poster. I just prefer calling him a lesser Poster.

I'm not belittling it, the Vuelta organizers are. It's still a big race, I'll give you that. So is Paris-Nice, Pais Vasco and Tirreno-Adriatico.

I just don't see why we need 3 Grand Tours with the same formula. Boring, pointless and one too much. That's why I want to create a different formula for it. Besides, for a long time of its history the Vuelta pretty much avoided the mountains, so it's not impossible.

Does the Vuelta need mountains to attract big crowds? Nah, the crowds at the Pais Vasco stages rivaled those of the Angliru. If it were up to me, I'd put 4 stages in Pais Vasco.

 

[The Hitch]

I'm not belittling it.

Yeah you are. You said it was a "Grand Tour in name only".

Now you are pretending you never said it but you did.

Vuelta is way bigger than PN btw.

And IMO its not boring. If you don't like it don't watch it. How comes if you don't like it should it be changed so that others can't enjoy it either?

 

[El Pistolero]

Yeah you are. You said it was a "Grand Tour in name only".

Now you are pretending you never said it but you did.

Vuelta is way bigger than PN btw.

And IMO its not boring. If you don't like it don't watch it. How comes if you don't like it should it be changed so that others can't enjoy it either?

If the Vuelta was the Tour you'd all still be whining about how bad and boring it was. And no I'm not belittling it. And I never said Paris-Nice was bigger than the Vuelta. Just me pointing out that there can be big races in cycling without it being a big classic or Grand Tour. Because as far as I know I never said the Vuelta wasn't a big race anymore. I just said the gap between the Vuelta and the other 2 GTs is immensely big. I like the punchy stages in the Vuelta like Peña Cabarga, El Escorial, Valdepeñas de Jaén... More action happened there than on the real Mountain stages. The only real mountain that was any good was the Angliru.

The mountain stages in the Vuelta were incredibly boring with the exception of Angliru. I must have watched a different race. I'm not asking to scrap the Vuelta or revoke its Grand Tour status. I'm asking for a change of the formula. I'm not of the opinion that we need 3 mountainous Grand Tours with some time trials in them. Maybe you are and that's fine. But I'd like to see something different for a change.

 

[The Hitch]

If the Vuelta was the Tour you'd all still be whining about how bad and boring it was.

Nope not me. I have even said 1 bad word about the 2012 course. Obviously I prefer the Giro but even sprint stages at the Tour, ill be watching pretty much from the time the coverage begins and on the forum the whole time discussing the goings on.

 

[El Pistolero]

Nope not me. I have even said 1 bad word about the 2012 course. Obviously I prefer the Giro but even sprint stages at the Tour, ill be watching pretty much from the time the coverage begins and on the forum the whole time discussing the goings on.

I use those for my Siesta during the Summer. The 2012 route is crap. I like the Tour overall, but next year's route misses one big mountain stage and cobbles(and too many flat stages like usual). Uhh, Cav will become the "greatest cyclist of his generation" this way

Let's call him Smokin' Cav for the way he pummeled his opponents during the Tour de France, what a legend

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I like the 4 stages in País Vasco idea. If it were up to me I'd definitely use a lot of Euskal Herria and Navarre (though you can have some brutal climbs in Navarre anyway, the ones I keep referring to being San Miguel de Áralar, 11,2km @ 8,1% on concrete, and the Higo de Monréal, 8,8km @ 9,5%)

Maybe one for El Pickle would be to have a stage that ended in Hondarribia after climbing Jaizkibel from Pasaia (the harder side!). There's a nice cobbled climb for about 200m inside the town walls:

You can take a sharp left and then continue on for another 500m or so of cobbles before descending down to finish on the seafront...

 

[El Pistolero]

I like the 4 stages in País Vasco idea. If it were up to me I'd definitely use a lot of Euskal Herria and Navarre (though you can have some brutal climbs in Navarre anyway, the ones I keep referring to being San Miguel de Áralar, 11,2km @ 8,1% on concrete, and the Higo de Monréal, 8,8km @ 9,5%)

Maybe one for El Pickle would be to have a stage that ended in Hondarribia after climbing Jaizkibel from Pasaia (the harder side!). There's a nice cobbled climb for about 200m inside the town walls:

You can take a sharp left and then continue on for another 500m or so of cobbles before descending down to finish on the seafront...

Looking at that picture, it's definitely a better place to have a finish than some of these "in the middle of nowhere finishes" the Vuelta likes to use. And don't get me started about those stupid truck podiums. Can they make it look even cheaper? The cobbles are probably nothing special, but it does give the race a better atmosphere. And shows how beautiful Spain can be. Vuelta ain't doing a good job at that one... The Avila finish on the cobbles near that beautiful city(?) wall is still my favorite though. Could you imagine a Grand Tour always having its last stage there? A lot better than the boring Champs Elysées and annoying habit of the Giro to end with a time trial(the Colosseum finish was special though).

I love these houses that go through streets. I wonder how much that costs.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

I use those for my Siesta during the Summer. The 2012 route is crap. I like the Tour overall, but next year's route misses one big mountain stage and cobbles(and too many flat stages like usual). Uhh, Cav will become the "greatest cyclist of his generation" this way

Let's call him Smokin' Cav for the way he pummeled his opponents during the Tour de France, what a legend

I'd say it misses at least two big mountain stages. Other than that, I agree.

There better be some surprises because as of right now it looks like Cav will have 8 or 9 chances to win a stage. Sky will be his only problem if the team is mostly built around Wiggins and Froome. But somehow I doubt that.

 

[Descender]

Looking at that picture, it's definitely a better place to have a finish than some of these "in the middle of nowhere finishes" the Vuelta likes to use. And don't get me started about those stupid truck podiums. Can they make it look even cheaper? The cobbles are probably nothing special, but it does give the race a better atmosphere. And shows how beautiful Spain can be. Vuelta ain't doing a good job at that one... The Avila finish on the cobbles near that beautiful city(?) wall is still my favorite though. Could you imagine a Grand Tour always having its last stage there? A lot better than the boring Champs Elysées and annoying habit of the Giro to end with a time trial(the Colosseum finish was special though).

I love these houses that go through streets. I wonder how much that costs.

One of these days I'll make an in-depth analysis of the weaknesses of the Vuelta, but I'll quote you here because this is really baffling and you're absolutely right.

The Vuelta seems to go to unspeakable pains to avoid showing the beautiful corners of Spain. The PRC did two great routes focusing on the UNESCO Heritage Sites Spain has.

http://plataformarecorridosciclistas.org/2011/02/11/vuelta-a-espana-patrimonio-de-la-humanidad-i/

http://plataformarecorridosciclistas.org/2011/03/13/vuelta-a-espana-patrimonio-de-la-humanidad-ii/

To name two obvious examples, it is simply illogical how they go finish in or near Granada almost every year, but never show the Alhambra, or finish next to it, with a beautiful uphill finish. Or how they finish in El Escorial, but never show the Monastery (or finish in it, with another beautiful and even cobbled uphill finish!).

 

[Descender]

More rumours:

No North-East in 2012, so no Ancares, Angliru, Lagos de Covadonga etc.

Riders will move west after the two stages in Navarre, into the Basque Country again. Getxo and Eibar are two candidates to host stage finishes.

The race will then probably move south and east again to tackle the Pyrenees, then south along the coast of Valencia, possibly with Xorret de Cati or Alto de Aitana, and into the South-East, hopefully featuring Calar Alto.

 

[El Pistolero]

Was hoping for a finish in San Sebastian.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

For Getxo, I can't see that being much other than a flat run-in unless they find a circuitous way to put the wall at Isuskitza not too far out (1,5km @ 10,3%) - could be inside the last 20km. Unbe Gana is not challenging enough and probably too close to the airspace for Bilbao airport. You could use Androka Gana and Sollube as the other climbs on the stage that way.

Eibar = potentially Alto de Ixua/Arrate? Certainly you could have a difficult lead in; from Azkoitia you could have the opposite sides of Elosua (9,7km @ 5,6%) followed by Karabieta (7,9km @ 5,1, last 2km @ 8,7%) to the ones they used in 2010 and descend into Eibar; that's certainly the way I'd prefer to approach it; as it's week one that may make a perfectly serviceable medium mountain stage if you have a couple of decent climbs earlier on, maybe without the need to go overkill and finish on Arrate.

 

[b.broadhurst]

Contador will win the Vuelta

 

[Descender]

Now there are rumours about two stages in Asturias... some of these rumours necessarily have to be wrong.

 

[roundabout]

Has the date for the route presentation been set?

 

[Descender]

Not yet. Mid-January it'll be me thinks.

 

[roundabout]

Thanks. Looking at the rumors it does seem that it's a bit to go before the presentation.