Vuelta a España - Stage 10 Tarragona - Vilanova i la Geltrú 175.7km

[Arnout]

Yeah, but lots of people have Basque surnames up there, doesn't mean anything really*. Hell, even I have a Basque surname.

*Well, to be fair, it does mean the region used to be mostly Basque back in the day.

Oh absolutely. I don't know anything about Erviti except that he won 2 stages in the Vuelta.

There certainly are reasons why EE was interested, I don't recall exactly what Gonzalez de Galdeano said but certainly he was interested because they were Basque. They don't hire other riders, except for Sanchez which is a special story.

 

[nvpacchi]

Sure, and I can be a Chinese living in Sweden. Look, this is senseless. I just assume that you are from the US, so probably you would find strange that the people in Quebec would consider Massachusets their own territory, and would be all the time insisting in that.

Erviti may have a connection to the basque country, which is not strange since there haven't been a border between those regions in centuries. So EE also hires non-basques, cyclists from neighbouring regions that suit them for whatever strange reason.

That would be more acceptable than telling people like me that I am basque when I am from another region. I know what I am, we are all talking about a kingdom (Navarra) that was powerful and was founded in the year 824.

I'm not sure I understand your Quebec/Massachusetts argument?

Whether Erviti hails directly from the borders of the Basque country is irrelevant IMO. Even though I am from the United States, I still consider myself Polish and Italian, as my great-grandparents hail from both nations. There doesn't need to be some black and white formula to define ethnicity, grey area is certainly acceptable.

 

[khardung la]

Seriously, know your history. Both Navarra and the current Basque country (as well as the Biarritz Bayonne part of France) was former Basque country. I assume you call Sicard an outsider too?

Former when?? Just for your info: after the Roman Empire collapsed against (mostly) the Visigoths, and after the invasion of the iberian Peninsula by the arabs (711), some Christian Kingdoms took shape. Among them the kingdom of Navarra in 824. Part of the current Vasque country was part of that kingdom. Lately after many turbulences that included attacks from the moors coming from the south, some of the actual provinces of the Vasque Country moved to the Kingdom of Castille, some remained in Navarra.

The kingdom expanded north and south of the Pyrinees, clashing with other kingdoms. Later after many decades of control by the Kingdom of France, Navarra was conquered by the Kingdom of Aragon in the XV century (King Ferdinand conquered it). With the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella Spain reunites after 8 centuries of muslim invasion. I say reunites because the visigoths ruled previously the whole of Spain for 3 centuries.

But when both Navarra and the Basque country were annexed by Madrid the Basque language was forbidden in Navarra and lots of Spaniards moved to the country to make it more Spanish. Resistance in the Basque country was more fierce and that's why Navarra is now "less" Basque than the Basque country.

Navarra was "annexed" as you say by the kingdom of Aragon. Madrid was not the capital of any place at that time, in fact it was an obscure little village founded probably by the moors. The vasques did not have a separate identity or know identitary issue for a long while, they were just another region of the Kingdom of Spain, which itself was the blending of the Kingdoms of Castille, Aragon, Navarre and Granada.

In fact later in the XIX century the Navarrans and the Vasques were supporting fiercely the "old traditions" of Spain feeding the Carlism movement. However in the end of the XiXs century, together with the romantic movement that was common in Europe, a nationalistic feeling develops in the Vasque country. The dictator Franco contributed to make that feeling bigger in some parts by repressing some customs and the language.

But I guess ignorance is bliss.

You are sooooo right about that

 

[khardung la]

I'm not sure I understand your Quebec/Massachusetts argument?

Whether Erviti hails directly from the borders of the Basque country is irrelevant IMO. Even though I am from the United States, I still consider myself Polish and Italian, as my great-grandparents hail from both nations. There doesn't need to be some black and white formula to define ethnicity, grey area is certainly acceptable.

then let's talk better in terms of the EE issue: EE will accept ANY good cyclist if he is from Navarra, because many people in the Basque country wants to state that Navarra should be part of the Basque Country. There is no such ethnicity consideration, it is about politics.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Still a person can be ethnically Basque, even if he hails from another region, especially a region which harbors a minority of Basques amongst its population

Yes, of course. The idea that someone from Navarre can't be Basque is as bizarre as the idea that someone from Navarre is automatically Basque. Both Spanish and Basque nationalism have their absurdities.

 

[Arnout]

Former when?? Just for your info: after the Roman Empire collapsed against (mostly) the Visigoths, and after the invasion of the iberian Peninsula by the arabs (711), some Christian Kingdoms took shape. Among them the kingdom of Navarra in 824. Part of the current Vasque country was part of that kingdom. Lately after many turbulences that included attacks from the moors coming from the south, some of the actual provinces of the Vasque Country moved to the Kingdom of Castille, some remained in Navarra.

The kingdom expanded north and south of the Pyrinees, clashing with other kingdoms. Later after many decades of control by the Kingdom of France, Navarra was conquered by the Kingdom of Aragon in the XV century (King Ferdinand conquered it). With the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella Spain reunites after 8 centuries of muslim invasion. I say reunites because the visigoths ruled previously the whole of Spain for 3 centuries.



Navarra was "annexed" as you say by the kingdom of Aragon. Madrid was not the capital of any place at that time, in fact it was an obscure little village founded probably by the moors. The vasques did not have a separate identity or know identitary issue for a long while, they were just another region of the Kingdom of Spain, which itself was the blending of the Kingdoms of Castille, Aragon, Navarre and Granada.

In fact later in the XIX century the Navarrans and the Vasques were supporting fiercely the "old traditions" of Spain feeding the Carlism movement. However in the end of the XiXs century, together with the romantic movement that was common in Europe, a nationalistic feeling develops in the Vasque country. The dictator Franco contributed to make that feeling bigger in some parts by repressing some customs and the language.



You are sooooo right about that

Well you say it. Once Basque country was one big country, including current Basque country, Navarre and the French part with most notably Biarritz and Bayonne. That's were the claim comes from. And that's why EE accepts cyclists of Navarre, because they see it as Basque country. And when you're born in Navarre, you're a Basque. Reasoning is not 100%, that's correct, but Erviti can well be an original Basque, and at least he's born in what the Basques call their country.

 

[khardung la]

Well you say it.

No I did not, but it is tiring. Probably you don't understand that Navarra is older and bigger than the Basque country, and that Basque nationalistic movements want to use sport for politics, which is disgusting. By saying that (for instance), I should be basque they are just messing the coexistence of different regions in this part of Spain and hampering a peaceful future.

That does not have nothing to do with Erviti though. It is not about cycling.

I have nothing else to say, so I will leave this thread for the good.

 

[Arnout]

No I did not, but it is tiring. Probably you don't understand that Navarra is older and bigger than the Basque country, and that Basque nationalistic movements want to use sport for politics, which is disgusting. By saying that for instance I should be basque they are just messing the coexistence of different regions in this part of Spain and hampering a peaceful future.

That does not have nothing to do with Erviti though. It is not about cycling.

I have nothing else to say though, so I will leave this thread for the good.

Basque country in Europe is older than anything else, so there's no way Navarra is older than Basque country.

The point is the kingdom of Navarra was in fact Basque country with a Basque head of state.

 

[hrotha]

Basque country in Europe is older than anything else, so there's no way Navarra is older than Basque country.

The point is the kingdom of Navarra was in fact Basque country with a Basque head of state.

Depends on the timeline. The later Kingdom of Navarre for example was a mix of Basque, Castilian, Aragonese and French influences. The original Kingdom of Pamplona was largely Basque, but even then there was a strong Romance influence. What makes all this somewhat sillier is that the original County of Castile was largely Basque too. Nationalism, heh. Stupid in all its forms.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Can I throw something in here?

The Basque people and their language were in Europe long before the people now known as Spaniards. Long before most of the population of modern-day Europe, in fact. Their language is the only surviving remnant of the pre-Indo-European culture of Europe that continues to this day.

Whether or not there was a political entity called the Basque country at any time in the history is an irrelevance - the Basque people once covered a much larger territory than they do now. Through the kingdom of Navarre, many of the civilians would have been Basque speakers, whether or not the elites spoke the language or not, just as in Lusatia to this day a significant rural population is Sorbian, though German is dominant. But Sorbs are Slavs, regardless that they don't live in a Slavic country, and they were included in the Pan-Slavism movement of the 19th century. The Basques laying claim to people of Basque origin in Navarre is the same thing, to a lesser extent. "Imanol" is a Basque name, "Erviti" is a Basque name. Of course, this means little. But just because you don't live in the present-day confines of the Basque country doesn't mean you can't be Basque - especially as political boundaries shift over time. There are lots of Germans living in Italy in Südtirol. There are lots of Croats and Slovenes in Austria. It is especially tricky in the Basque country, because there is no clearly demarcated political boundary between "País Vasco" and "España"; there is no obstruction to Basques moving into other areas of the country for economic or social reasons. Some of those people could have moved into Navarre, just the same as some of the people who lived in Navarre already could have been Basques who didn't want to move into the smaller political entity of the Basque country. It's the problem of having a state which is polycultural - Yugoslavia had a similar problem as many Serbs were living in Croat territory and vice versa.

I have friends in Argentina. One of them considers themselves Basque because they come from a long line of Basque ancestors. Similar history caused Unai Etxeberría to ride for Euskaltel despite coming from Venezuela. If Erviti has Basque ancestry, why shouldn't he be considered Basque? The Basque country isn't a clear delineation zone, "You Are Now Leaving Basqueness" and anybody outside of that gives up their claim to being Basque. Basques may not be the majority in Navarre, but it doesn't stop them being Basque, just the same as I didn't become German when I moved to live there.

 

[XlandaluzeX]

how, what a mess out of Ervitis win hheh, navarrese, basques, basques trying to anexionate Navarre... ouch

im a navarrese (and basque ) myself so let me put some light on this, my family is from a small village south from Pamplona/Iruña ( i've read here Pamplone to be the border of the "basque area" ), my mum speaks basque, i do speak basque, my grandma did it too and so does around 90% of my relatives, i have a basque name and surname, the village has basque name, like ALL the rivers and mountains of my valley, i play basque sports with my friends (one of them being a pro "pelota" player - and a veeery good one- ) and in the villages festibal u can see basque dances and all that kind of folklore everywhere ...... is all that enaugh ?


still, for sure all these means nothing, its not about the languaje or about the culture or about the blood or genes, is not like there are a list of requirements to be considered basque, is something easier, all that area is and its been though history (you can go back for thousand years) under basque influence, so all these provinces (no matter to who they belong through time or in how many parts they ve been divided) have been always called basque-provinces, so to me is fairly normal to refer to people from these areas as "basques" ... thats all


pd: a funny thing, the original land of the "basques" (and the first signs of basque language) it is proven to be in the current Navarra territory, and not in the now called "Basque Country" autonomous community ...


go Igor Anton

 

[hrotha]

A little weird to register at a cycling forum to discuss politics, don't you think?

Anyway, I think I agree with most of what you said. About Pamplona, not sure if your comment referring to my post about it being the "border" (so to speak) means you disagree with me. Was my comment wrong? I'm not sure, that's why I ask. Mind you, I didn't mean there's no Basque speakers south of Pamplona, just that the Pamplona basin is approximately where the predominantly Basque-speaking and Spanish-speaking regions meet. Obviously it's a gradient, there's no definite borders and it's pretty mixed everywhere, as is only logical.

edit: I think the emphasis on history when talking about this issue is misguided. I love history, but it doesn't matter here. What matters is what the Navarrese currently feel.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Which pelota player? Which type? Pelota Mano? Zesta Punta? I'm quite a fan.

 

[XlandaluzeX]

i read the forum since longtime, just i didnt register till now... and sorry for speaking about "politics", i just couldnt bit my tongue when you said navarrese we re not basques... anyway, im done with this conversation

ammmm, just 1 thing, i d put the "border" at Lizarra/Estella(though u can find 100% basque villages south from here too) better than Pamplona (wich is a big city so is not a good example)

Which pelota player? Which type? Pelota Mano? Zesta Punta? I'm quite a fan.

pelota mano, current manomanista champion (sure u know who im speaking about), been partying with him this last weekend cos of the festibal of our village, so do not alarm if u see a decrease of his performance

 

[CatsNK]

If there's still any discussion of the race -- I thought it curious that the Astana rider was attacking with about 3.5K to go yesterday - with no real chance to catch the breakaway.

Turns out Vino is visiting the Vuelta. I was speculating as to if maybe the doomed Astana attack was to impress Vino. Its seemed like an attack just for the sake of attacking...

 

[Libertine Seguros]

pelota mano, current manomanista champion (sure u know who im speaking about), been partying with him this last weekend cos of the festibal of our village, so do not alarm if u see a decrease of his performance

ah, Irujo I presume. I enjoy his matches, but I have the most fun making jokes about how old Titin is. What with Aspe signing Estebán, who's a Riojan like Titin, but about a third his age...

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Fascinating discussion, but rather misses the point that EE's mission statement is to form a team of riders from any if the three provinces of the Basque Country, or Navarre. "se otorgará prioritaria importancia a la creación de un equipo ciclista profesional, formado por deportistas que hayan nacido en los Territorios Históricos de Alava, Bizkaia, Gipuzkoa y Navarra o que se hayan formado en las canteras de los referidos territorios" .

So if Erviti had been signed by EE (and there is no reason to assume that he will ever be), it would be on the simple basis that he is Navarran, and therefore fits their profile of approachable riders.

The final clause in the quote is the basis on which they have Samu.