Vuelta a España 2019 stage 17: Aranda de Duero - Guadalajara > 219.6 km

[Red Rick]

The point is the following. If Astana stopped working, even though Quintana is no danger to anyone, He could have been in red by far today unless Roglic and Pogacar worked real hard together. Otherwise Quintana walks to the red Jersey. The worse that would have happened is the same but with a completely worn out Roglic and Pogacar. There is no way in the universe that Roglic and Pogacar alone would have been any challenge to DCQ/MOVI/Sunweb working together at the front.

Exactly. Now they have Quintana in bad form sitting in a 2nd place with no real margin to the guys behind. He's a sitting duck.

Not riding would've benefit Valverde as well

 

[Red Rick]

Gotta check if @Gigs_98 is okay after today

 

[Valv.Piti]

Yeah I also fear Quintana is a sitting duck as this moment, but you have to admire the courage. Just so damn unfortunate Astana were so fricking strong today, otherwise Rogla would have a) lost more time and b) been on the front A LOT more. Instead of critisizing Movistar for trying to split the chase, maybe question why Astana played it the way they did?

 

[tobydawq]

TV2 almost making it out to be a disaster for Movistar in spite of Quintana gaining 5.30 minutes today and taking every opportunity to downplay them. Apart from Quintana who they apprantly love because a) he doesnt get support on Movistar and b) Movistar is Valverde's team and Valverde himself is actively working against Nairo. Thankfully, that rhetoric isnt the dominant on this forum.

Its really a sad, sad state. More often than not, wrong analysis and an extreme amount of time used on dissecting every move of Quintana/Valverde and what it means between the two of them instead of actually commenting on the stage. Not one time was it even questioned that Astana acted as Roglic's usefull idiots because it was much, much easier to critisize a tactic that you cannot even understand.

Why is it that I am not just watching Eurosport??

I was surprised that Staghøj managed to hold firm and maintain that Movistar's tactics did make sense despite Nygaard and Rolf. Chris Anker also got it.

 

[DFA123]

TV2 almost making it out to be a disaster for Movistar in spite of Quintana gaining 5.30 minutes today and taking every opportunity to downplay them. Apart from Quintana who they apprantly love because a) he doesnt get support on Movistar and b) Movistar is Valverde's team and Valverde himself is actively working against Nairo. Thankfully, that rhetoric isnt the dominant on this forum.

Its really a sad, sad state. More often than not, wrong analysis and an extreme amount of time used on dissecting every move of Quintana/Valverde and what it means between the two of them instead of actually commenting on the stage. Not one time was it even questioned that Astana acted as Roglic's usefull idiots because it was much, much easier to critisize a tactic that you cannot even understand.

Why is it that I am not just watching Eurosport??

It seems largely the same on here. Movistar always get loads of criticism for their tactics and the way they race. Yet they are, once again, the team animating a GC more than any others, winning stages, and are also the team who have got two riders in podium positions, despite not having two of the three strongest in the race.

It's almost as if the Movistar directors understand tactics better than all these pundits and forum experts.

 

[JosephK]

I couldn't watch today, just seeing the results now. What the heck happened.

Everyone's hair caught fire right at the start and the breakaway, which included Quintana, progressively increased its lead over the red-jersey group to about 6 minutes. (Roglic admitted during his post-race interview that he was caught a bit off guard by the ferocity of the attacks and a bit out of position.) For a while it looked like Quintana might retake red. Damage control was done by Jumbo and Astana for a while in the chase group, but with less than 1/3 of the race remaining, Moviestar surged to the front of the chase group on an up slope and dropped all of Roglic's domestiques. He was now by himself in the chase group. Same for Pogacar. But MAL had practically the entire Astana team with him. Valverde was also in the red jersey group (of course). Astana headed the chase group the rest of the way, while Roglic and Pogacar just sat on wheels. The breakaway finished about 5 and a half minutes ahead. Philippe Gilbert won the day on another sly charge late, allowing Sam Bennett to jump too soon (chasing Stybar on an early charge) to set up his (Gilbert's) surge to victory. A crazy stage. Averaged over 50kph for over 200 kilometers. Oh, and DQS had pretty much their entire team in the break, including their young GC guy Knox, who is now in the top 10.

 

[Gigs_98]

So...I missed a stage...

 

[movingtarget]

Exactly. Now they have Quintana in bad form sitting in a 2nd place with no real margin to the guys behind. He's a sitting duck.

Not riding would've benefit Valverde as well

Quintana's legs won't be worse than anyone in the chase group. It was a large break and even though Quintana was working, the chasers were probably working harder. Jumbo's and Astana's domestiques should suffer tomorrow. Roglic will probably be isolated again then it's up to Movistar how they want to play it. Tactically Jumbo have been caught out again as they were in the Giro. Roglic could have easily lost the race today if the tactics in the chase group were a little different.

 

[tobydawq]

Roglic admits that he wasn't properly positioned in the beginning of the stage.

That makes me so incredibly frustrated that it was Quintana, not Valverde who went in the break.

 

[Valv.Piti]

It seems largely the same on here. Movistar always get loads of criticism for their tactics and the way they race. Yet they are, once again, the team animating a GC more than any others, winning stages, and are also the team who have got two riders in podium positions, despite not having two of the three strongest in the race.

It's almost as if the Movistar directors understand tactics better than all these pundits and forum experts.

Exatly... and the Giro is noted as a little footnote because, you know, there's always an exception to the rule.

Im just lmfao over here. As you said, Movistar is again and again more or less the only team (along with Astana) that does anything in GT's. Imagine this GT season without them. Yet, they apparantly are clueless and conservative.

 

[JosephK]

Exatly... and the Giro is noted as a little footnote because, you know, there's always an exception to the rule.

Im just lmfao over here. As you said, Movistar is again and again more or less the only team (along with Astana) that does anything in GT's. Imagine this GT season without them. Yet, they apparantly are clueless and conservative.

Chapeau to Moviestar, today. They rode with panache, courage, and creativity. They were willing to gamble on some things. Who knows what can happen. As has been pointed out earlier, if Roglic had suffered a puncture or mechanical in that mayhem, he could have lost 2 or 3 minutes, or more, to the group with Valverde. And then he would have been set up for another attack tomorrow.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I was surprised that Staghøj managed to hold firm and maintain that Movistar's tactics did make sense despite Nygaard and Rolf. Chris Anker also got it.

Rolf Sørensen has to be the single most clueless commentator I'd have to imagine. I have said it before, but with the *** he spews, just imagine him being a DS. Im so surprised he has been a pro for 15 years and still comes across like this.
Nygaard seems even more clueless when it comes to tactics, but has many great things to say as well most of the time.

 

[Jagartrott]

Movistar showed some real guts today. I think their tactic towards the end was gutsy but correct: shed Jumbo domestiques, leave Roglic isolated. It then would take only Astana not riding to put him under real pressure, having to work himself. Alas, Astana were happy to defend a 4th place. Disappointing.

Also, PhilGil is back on form. Great teamwork from DQS - a joy to watch.

 

[Valv.Piti]

But it really isnt good for me to watch cycling on that channel no more. Should just turn into Holm, Riis and Bay who are awesome, but *** adds and I just cant help myself from listening to this ongoing narrative which just goes on and on and gets bigger and bigger. Nygaard and Rolf are especially bad at this, its like they both know Quintana and Valverde hate each other and both are actively racing against each other and using every action from either on as an argument to that.
Or Rolf stating for the gazillionthtime that "Valverde must be better than ever before" despite a) obviously not being true and b) how can you continue to be this surprised by Valverde in the Vuelta? He has done it for 15 years in this race you fool.

 

[tobydawq]

Rolf Sørensen has to be the single most clueless commentator I'd have to imagine.

That's really, really harsh. Especially because he very well knows that his eternal optimism will rarely be rewarded.

And he isn't tactically clueless at all, he just forgets logic when Danes are in play, and he continuously underestimates Valverde and keeps being amazed by him.

Otherwise, he is quite often spot on, and with people like René Wenzel and Henrik Liniger at times on air, not being able to imagine a more clueless commentator is borderline ludicrous.

 

[tobydawq]

Also, Riis is just garbage as a commentator. No humour, and his tendency to mumble all the times makes it impossible to understand his sour words anyway.

 

[Rollthedice]

Van Kintanen imminent attack on the flat.

Exactly. Now they have Quintana in bad form sitting in a 2nd place with no real margin to the guys behind. He's a sitting duck.

Not riding would've benefit Valverde as well

Don't ever underestimate Van Kintanen.

 

[RedheadDane]

So...I missed a stage...

Thank you for your sacrifice!

 

[Jagartrott]

Also, Riis is just garbage as a commentator. No humour, and his tendency to mumble all the times makes it impossible to understand his sour words anyway.

Danes who mumble - isn't that the standard? Or is this mumbling2.0?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

For all the stick they get, Abarcá have - regularly - managed to interject themselves into GC battles they had absolutely no business being part of (Tour '06, Giro '10), and tried to do the same on numerous other occasions (e.g. with LLS and Plaza in the 2010 Tour). Those GTs they've won recently have been thanks to some calculated gambles (Quintana and Formigal, Carapaz). While they may sometimes draw blanks and their tactics may wind up counterintuitive, it's largely because they keep trying things and, crucially, apart from Valverde who is gradually fading more and more as a stage racer, none of their riders have been able to be consistently good for a three week race in a good few years. Quintana gets a load of stick for being defensive from people that don't remember that how he made his name when everybody loved him back in 2012-13 was a long range attack in the Route du Sud and an unexpected ride to the polka dots in similar fashion; both of his GT wins were predicated on picking one or two stages and attacking from far. And while, yes, he does ride defensively much of the rest of the time, focusing all of his efforts on some really big long-range attacks, there are lots of riders who get a lot of love from the forum whose aggression plans are no different. And even when the race has gone completely awry, Quintana has been able to salvage something from it in general - taking stages in the 2018 and 2019 Tours after his GC bid has failed. Nobody can say that he hasn't raced this Vuelta in entertaining fashion. He won stage 2 with an attack on the flat after turning a stage perceived to be a reduced sprint (obviously along with several others) into an important one, he was on the attack in Andorra seeing as that's why Soler was called back, he was in the break today on a flat stage to try to win his time back (and almost successfully doing so). He'll probably pay for it tomorrow, but hey, he tried to interject himself back into a GC mix he had fallen out of, and more power to him for doing so.

 

[Breezy1985]

Exatly... and the Giro is noted as a little footnote because, you know, there's always an exception to the rule.

Im just lmfao over here. As you said, Movistar is again and again more or less the only team (along with Astana) that does anything in GT's. Imagine this GT season without them. Yet, they apparantly are clueless and conservative.

I love them for the entertainment value but tatics wise they more often than not shhot themselves in the foot and a few GC wins for Movi wont disguise all the failure for one of the biggest and best funded GT teams in the peloton and same goes for Astana. Also most of Movis exiting tactics seem to come from Nairo going it alone against half the team so not sure how tactical it actually is

 

[tobydawq]

Danes who mumble - isn't that the standard? Or is this mumbling2.0?

I don't think it's the standard, no. We just don't sing like Norwegians.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I love them for the entertainment value but tatics wise they more often than not shhot themselves in the foot and a few GC wins for Movi wont disguise all the failure for one of the biggest and best funded GT teams in the peloton and same goes for Astana. Also most of Movis exiting tactics seem to come from Nairo going it alone against half the team so not sure how tactical it actually is

Movistar is actually around the midfield when it comes to funding. That's been a large part of their problem the last couple of years, paying for three genuine leaders has meant they have lost a huge amount of their strong mid-range guys like the Izagirre brothers, the Herrada brothers, and their flat engines like Castroviejo, and with Soler improving and Carapaz hitting the big-time, leaving a "too many chiefs not enough Indians" vibe at the team.

 

[Breezy1985]

For all the stick they get, Abarcá have - regularly - managed to interject themselves into GC battles they had absolutely no business being part of (Tour '06, Giro '10), and tried to do the same on numerous other occasions (e.g. with LLS and Plaza in the 2010 Tour). Those GTs they've won recently have been thanks to some calculated gambles (Quintana and Formigal, Carapaz). While they may sometimes draw blanks and their tactics may wind up counterintuitive, it's largely because they keep trying things and, crucially, apart from Valverde who is gradually fading more and more as a stage racer, none of their riders have been able to be consistently good for a three week race in a good few years. Quintana gets a load of stick for being defensive from people that don't remember that how he made his name when everybody loved him back in 2012-13 was a long range attack in the Route du Sud and an unexpected ride to the polka dots in similar fashion; both of his GT wins were predicated on picking one or two stages and attacking from far. And while, yes, he does ride defensively much of the rest of the time, focusing all of his efforts on some really big long-range attacks, there are lots of riders who get a lot of love from the forum whose aggression plans are no different. And even when the race has gone completely awry, Quintana has been able to salvage something from it in general - taking stages in the 2018 and 2019 Tours after his GC bid has failed. Nobody can say that he hasn't raced this Vuelta in entertaining fashion. He won stage 2 with an attack on the flat after turning a stage perceived to be a reduced sprint (obviously along with several others) into an important one, he was on the attack in Andorra seeing as that's why Soler was called back, he was in the break today on a flat stage to try to win his time back (and almost successfully doing so). He'll probably pay for it tomorrow, but hey, he tried to interject himself back into a GC mix he had fallen out of, and more power to him for doing so.

I dont think the stick Movi get on here is because of Nairo trying things rather its about Movi chasing him down when he does

 

[Breezy1985]

Movistar is actually around the midfield when it comes to funding. That's been a large part of their problem the last couple of years, paying for three genuine leaders has meant they have lost a huge amount of their strong mid-range guys like the Izagirre brothers, the Herrada brothers, and their flat engines like Castroviejo, and with Soler improving and Carapaz hitting the big-time, leaving a "too many chiefs not enough Indians" vibe at the team.

Then why hire Landa or why not explain to some of the chiefs that its time to move on before now. Thats bad management and I know I am saying that about a team with a huge trophy cabinet