Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2021: Stage 15 (Navalmoral de la Mata - El Barraco, 197.5 km)

[movingtarget]

Did you miss the goats sighting today as well? I didn't mind this stage too much, but I feel like I missed out on the goats.

Yes I saw the goat action...........

 

[RedheadDane]

So you missed all of the action

Missed the entire start. At some point it seemed like everyone - and their goats - wanted to go on the attack, while nobody wanted to let them go.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

If Roglic has the right form in this Vuelta (even something close to his Tour 2020 form over 3 weeks), the final result won't be close.

By this point in the race 2 years ago there had been an individual TT. And Thursday's battle on the Gamoniteiru will be something like the Col de la Loze in the 2020 Tour de France (or the Angrilu in last year's Vuelta).

Honestly, Movistar as a team aren't as strong as JV because they're down 2 riders & Ineos are also down 2 riders. So barring crashes/unforeseen stuff, it looks like both Wednesday & Thursday will be watts battles in the final kilometres because JV have the collective power to bring the race down to those final climbs.

I would not bet against Roglic winning with a nice margin right now.

Neither would I. And today wasn't really a stage for them to gain time so I didn't expect them to go ballistic from an attacking point of view. It's just that considering Roglič has already lost two races on the highest profile stage of all by not maximising time when his form was the best and by letting others gain time unopposed, then especially given Ineos and Movistar are down 2 riders and there's a rest day tomorrow so controlling him would be of far less cost than if there was a stage tomorrow, I'm just surprised they continue to be so passive in this kind of circumstance when a GC rider rolls away off the front like that, even though clearly Yates is no immediate threat.

 

[RedheadDane]

Poor Reijnen. After he DNFed - and got confused with Elissonde - they made him walk home in his socks!

 

[Tim Cahill]

I could probably have a crack at making the time limit myself tbh

 

[Netserk]

I hope the Vuelta will have the 3rd week similar to 2015 and 2019 soon again. Maybe then Mijares could actually be raced. Just no ITT the day after like in 1997.

Neither would I. And today wasn't really a stage for them to gain time so I didn't expect them to go ballistic from an attacking point of view. It's just that considering Roglič has already lost two races on the highest profile stage of all by not maximising time when his form was the best and by letting others gain time unopposed, then especially given Ineos and Movistar are down 2 riders and there's a rest day tomorrow so controlling him would be of far less cost than if there was a stage tomorrow, I'm just surprised they continue to be so passive in this kind of circumstance when a GC rider rolls away off the front like that, even though clearly Yates is no immediate threat.

He was never going to win the 2019 Giro, so what other race than the 2020 Tour are you talking about?

 

[gunara]

Of the year? we might have to group more years! this is really horrible.

Still need to wait, there were several that bored me this bad before

 

[solo80k]

Majka so entertaining when going for some stage wins and one of the most boring riders in terms of GC.

Roglic looks quite tired but the rest of the contenders had no strong legs either.

 

[Breezy1985]

Has this been the most boring season of GTs ever (obviously not EVER but in memory)

 

[Red Rick]

I hope the Vuelta will have the 3rd week similar to 2015 and 2019 soon again. Maybe then Mijares could actually be raced. Just no ITT the day after like in 1997.


He was never going to win the 2019 Giro, so what other race than the 2020 Tour are you talking about?

I'm still wondering what stage Roglic should have attacked in the 2020 Tour

1. The stage he got beaten by Pogacar
2. The stage when he was already in the lead and he didn't attack on a descent like what he got flamed for earlier this week.
3. The stage where he went as hard as possible and dropped Pogacar.

Nobody expected that ITT to happen, yet now people blame him for not attacking stages where he got dropped or beaten.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I'm still wondering what stage Roglic should have attacked in the 2020 Tour

1. The stage he got beaten by Pogacar
2. The stage when he was already in the lead and he didn't attack on a descent like what he got flamed for earlier this week.
3. The stage where he went as hard as possible and dropped Pogacar.

Nobody expected that ITT to happen, yet now people blame him for not attacking stages where he got dropped or beaten.

It's not only about "should have attacked". It's about "shouldn't have let Pogačar ride up the road and had comfortably been able to match him on previous accelerations, but decided not to". It's about how, after Rogla showed himself so strong on stage 4, they then rode at the speed of their 3rd best rider with the entire GC mix sat in tow unchallenged until the last 300m for almost the entirety of the rest of the race, thinking that the race was effectively a coronation. It's about how their only variation on the "ride in formation at the pace of our third best rider" technique was to toast everybody to set up Roglič, who would then, as soon as his last domestique peeled off, drop the tempo and follow people. It's about how they justified their passivity on stage 8 because it was "too early to take the jersey", but then they took the jersey one day later after riding on the front all day anyway. It'd be easier to accept that they couldn't have dropped Pogačar if they'd actually at some point tried to, rather than keeping the group together long enough to attack from the kind of range that makes Joaquím Rodríguez look like Jacky Durand.

The only way it's justifiable would be if it was all a big bluff and Rogla wasn't actually all that strong, but his sprint finishes at Orcières-Merlette and Puy Mary and his performance to Col de la Loze give the lie to that, plus also they'd have been less genuinely shocked by losing the race in the TT if that had been the case.

 

[Red Rick]

It's not only about "should have attacked". It's about "shouldn't have let Pogačar ride up the road and had comfortably been able to match him on previous accelerations, but decided not to". It's about how, after Rogla showed himself so strong on stage 4, they then rode at the speed of their 3rd best rider with the entire GC mix sat in tow unchallenged until the last 300m for almost the entirety of the rest of the race, thinking that the race was effectively a coronation. It's about how their only variation on the "ride in formation at the pace of our third best rider" technique was to toast everybody to set up Roglič, who would then, as soon as his last domestique peeled off, drop the tempo and follow people. It's about how they justified their passivity on stage 8 because it was "too early to take the jersey", but then they took the jersey one day later after riding on the front all day anyway. It'd be easier to accept that they couldn't have dropped Pogačar if they'd actually at some point tried to, rather than keeping the group together long enough to attack from the kind of range that makes Joaquím Rodríguez look like Jacky Durand.

By stage 6 I think they wanted to keep Dumoulin up in GC at least and he was on a really bad day or something. Given Pogacar was 2nd on stage 4 I don't see any reason to think he would've just dropped Poggers there.

As for the Peyresourde, Roglic responded twice to Pogacar, he can be weak and still close down an attack or two. But perhaps he could've dropped less than 40s there.

If anything I think the biggest tactical mistake in that Tour was racing Port de Bales and the bottom of the Peyresourde so hard. Part of that was on Dumoulin.

The 2nd mistake was probably that Roglic didn't train his ITT enough during that year. Maybe in combination these mistakes make a difference of a minute.

 

[roundabout]

I'm still wondering what stage Roglic should have attacked in the 2020 Tour

1. The stage he got beaten by Pogacar
2. The stage when he was already in the lead and he didn't attack on a descent like what he got flamed for earlier this week.
3. The stage where he went as hard as possible and dropped Pogacar.

Nobody expected that ITT to happen, yet now people blame him for not attacking stages where he got dropped or beaten.

Its's an impressive skill to keep on pretending that the Peyresourde stage never happened

 

[Tricycle Rider]

So you missed all of the action

Well, yes.

 

[topcat]

On Loze, Roglic didn't attack and he didn't drop Pog. They both got dropped by MAL. Pog just dropped harder.

 

[Red Rick]

Its's an impressive skill to keep on pretending that the Peyresourde stage never happened

Which of these 2 is more plausible

1. Roglic could not follow Pogacar
2. Roglic could have followed Pogacar and dropped everyone else, but he chose not to.

Apparently the line of argumentation is that he got dropped for fun, yet I'm the one doing the mental gymnastics.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

By stage 6 I think they wanted to keep Dumoulin up in GC at least and he was on a really bad day or something. Given Pogacar was 2nd on stage 4 I don't see any reason to think he would've just dropped Poggers there.

As for the Peyresourde, Roglic responded twice to Pogacar, he can be weak and still close down an attack or two. But perhaps he could've dropped less than 40s there.

If anything I think the biggest tactical mistake in that Tour was racing Port de Bales and the bottom of the Peyresourde so hard. Part of that was on Dumoulin.

The 2nd mistake was probably that Roglic didn't train his ITT enough during that year. Maybe in combination these mistakes make a difference of a minute.

They didn't ride in formation on Puy Mary or Grand-Colombier until 300m from the line because Dumoulin had a bad day on stage 6, though. They didn't spend two weeks using Sepp Kuss as though he was the world's most elite cyclotourist and never once asking him to actually provide a domestiquing service because Dumoulin had a bad day on stage 6.

They might have sent Sepp Kuss out with some really, really stupid soundbites to provide forum blowhards like myself material to hold against him for years because Dumoulin had a bad day on stage 6, however.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Which of these 2 is more plausible

1. Roglic could not follow Pogacar
2. Roglic could have followed Pogacar and dropped everyone else, but he chose not to.

Apparently the line of argumentation is that he got dropped for fun, yet I'm the one doing the mental gymnastics.

He didn't get dropped. He judged Quintana and Bernal to be the bigger threats, and stayed with them.

 

[staubsauger]

Majka so entertaining when going for some stage wins and one of the most boring riders in terms of GC.

Roglic looks quite tired but the rest of the contenders had no strong legs either.

Majka going for stages instead of general classification is like Levi Leipheimer becoming Michael Rasmussen!

 

[Rackham]

Majka so entertaining when going for some stage wins and one of the most boring riders in terms of GC.

Roglic looks quite tired but the rest of the contenders had no strong legs either.

Its third week is playing a role in making everyone slightly more cautious. Because Gamoniteiru literally comes down to watts, just like Angrilu & Loze. Even Romain Bardet mentioned the need to save energy for the coming week. It's on everyone's mind.

By next weekend this Vuelta will look a whole lot different.

 

[Netserk]

This is a frickin' joke.

The gruppetto made the cut with 28'22'' to spare.

 

[Rackham]

Which of these 2 is more plausible

1. Roglic could not follow Pogacar
2. Roglic could have followed Pogacar and dropped everyone else, but he chose not to.

Apparently the line of argumentation is that he got dropped for fun, yet I'm the one doing the mental gymnastics.

I think cycling is one of those sports where "if only" & "what if?" scenarios don't work in a linear fashion (i.e. we can't say xyz rider would have won "if" he did one thing differently), simply because the day-to-day management of a race by teams & riders totally differs based on the standings & events.

I mean "what if?" Pogacar didn't lose time in that stage 7 echelon? It's a different race & nothing which follows happens the way it did. In the end (judging by that final TT), Pogacar was probably the strongest. But Pog being the strongest (& even clearly so) in the Pyrenees without that previous loss of time (& perhaps even with Pogacar in yellow on the first rest day) might have made JV ride a totally differently race after that.

And considering Pogacar's non-existent UAE team... "if only" & "what if?" would have made a different Tour which is probably impossible to correctly imagine.

 

[VeloMaster]

Spectacular things - Wednesday or Thursday only might not be enough - need to happen to save this Vuelta from being the worst GT of the year, and the other two weren't even that good.

If there were a Gold medal for boring GT contests, this Vuelta would be a serious contender.

 

[Breezy1985]

Which of these 2 is more plausible

1. Roglic could not follow Pogacar
2. Roglic could have followed Pogacar and dropped everyone else, but he chose not to.

Apparently the line of argumentation is that he got dropped for fun, yet I'm the one doing the mental gymnastics.

He definitely underestimated Pog in the mountains. Looked to me he was happy to let his countryman tag along for the white jersey and wasn't too worried about him early on.

In fairness most of us thought that too

 

[Red Rick]

He definitely underestimated Pog in the mountains. Looked to me he was happy to let his countryman tag along for the white jersey and wasn't too worried about him early on

He reacted to him the first two times though.