Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2024, stage 19: Logroño - Alto de Moncalvillo, 173.2k

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As he should do. Now it's all up to his recovery. He could lose 10 minutes tomorrow if he's totally cooked.
Depends on what was meant by the "kliling himself". He should absolutely have gone as deep as he could to hold position, and he's done a sterling job of fighting back, but he has also hurt his own chances by killing himself to follow attacks he had no business trying to follow low down on climbs. As I said earlier, he's shown that once he gets dropped and is left to his own devices to pace things, he has done a good job, but when he's in a group or when he can see the guys he's racing going away from him, he just seems to panic and try to chase down moves which he then pays for later by blowing up when he'd have been better served staying patient and riding his own pace, the amount of times he'd go riding off responding to moves and then drop back to Paret-Peintre again this last couple of weeks just makes you wonder if, with a bit more common sense, if he'd have been able to hold closer or at least still be in the driving seat for the podium rather than clinging on by his fingernails at this point.
 
Roglic's kind of stage and he delivered. Mas just can't finish off on the climbs while being consistent throughout. Gaudu back in form. O'Connor heading for another 4th place in a grand tour ? if so that will be a 4th in every GT but like he said, he's tired of finishing 4th..........
Carapaz didn’t look great either, so OConnor could still hand onto a podium.
Might depend on how the stage de elopes tomorrow. If it blows up early then who knows.
 
Depends on what was meant by the "kliling himself". He should absolutely have gone as deep as he could to hold position, and he's done a sterling job of fighting back, but he has also hurt his own chances by killing himself to follow attacks he had no business trying to follow low down on climbs. As I said earlier, he's shown that once he gets dropped and is left to his own devices to pace things, he has done a good job, but when he's in a group or when he can see the guys he's racing going away from him, he just seems to panic and try to chase down moves which he then pays for later by blowing up when he'd have been better served staying patient and riding his own pace, the amount of times he'd go riding off responding to moves and then drop back to Paret-Peintre again this last couple of weeks just makes you wonder if, with a bit more common sense, if he'd have been able to hold closer or at least still be in the driving seat for the podium rather than clinging on by his fingernails at this point.
O'Connor has done what he did today for 2 straight weeks and still haven't learned a damn thing. This wasn't as flagrant as what he did on stage 8 for example, but still pretty damn stupid. Even better than using PP, if he had any brains he would just sit on a rider like Skjelmose today who has been consistent throughout the whole race racing like the brother of Joao Almeida with a better finishing kick.
 
Pacher was doing 7.5 W/kg in group draft in the first km of Moncalvillo lol
Thats *** amazing. No wonder Dani could shred Carapaz and Mas the way he did even if they got helped by Lipo not being able to follow the tempo initially. Can say a lot about Bora and Roglic, but they have consistently absolutely nailed the "easy stage, insane leadout" strategy that has Roglic winning convincgly. Thats like the 4th that has done really hard damage

Try doing 7,5 w/kg on Zwift or whatever for even a minute. Good luck lads
 
7.5 for a minute is already pretty *** strong for an amateur I'd guess.

Meanwhile, Lipowitz has literally done more valuable work getting dropped than pulling for Roglic
In my case thats around 560 watts which is like almost twice my FTP. Im not great by any means, but still do a fair bit of training on the bike. Doing 560 watts for a minute would kill me for quite a while. Imagine just riding threshold to the top at 6,5 w/kg afterwards for 25 minutes, my god

Lipo was exceptional to Granada (basically holding Carapaz which might have been the most threatening rider) and helping a bit here and there, specifically to Cuitu Negru as well where Roglic just couldn't hold the tempo. He's not really made for these leadouts like Dani and Vlasov.

That being said, its scary thinking how much Pogacar could have nuked the entire peloton with in peak shape with such a leadout. What Bora did today was Visma on Plateau de Beille on steroids, negative splitting the field on the lower slopes for fun and even more up Pog's pallpark than a long hard effort after a long and hard day. He could prolly put +1 minute into Roglic even though Roglic was amazing today.
 
Depends on what was meant by the "kliling himself". He should absolutely have gone as deep as he could to hold position, and he's done a sterling job of fighting back, but he has also hurt his own chances by killing himself to follow attacks he had no business trying to follow low down on climbs. As I said earlier, he's shown that once he gets dropped and is left to his own devices to pace things, he has done a good job, but when he's in a group or when he can see the guys he's racing going away from him, he just seems to panic and try to chase down moves which he then pays for later by blowing up when he'd have been better served staying patient and riding his own pace, the amount of times he'd go riding off responding to moves and then drop back to Paret-Peintre again this last couple of weeks just makes you wonder if, with a bit more common sense, if he'd have been able to hold closer or at least still be in the driving seat for the podium rather than clinging on by his fingernails at this point.
Agree. He doesn't seem to really understand that he's a diesel climber rather than a mountain sprinter. The other thing that's hurting him a bit is that Gall and VPP haven't been both really good at the same time. They're both elite mountain domestiques (once Gall gets the GC itch out of his system) and if they were both at their top levels could have given BOC a nice cordon up till the last 2 km or so.
 
Can you feel it?
Keep stomping
Keep moving
Can you feel it?
Stomping, keep
Stomping, keep
Moving
Now can you feel it?
Can you feel that's real?

Keep on stomping to the stomp song!
Or, for those of my generation:

Stomp, step down in it,
Put your foot where you feel the fit.
Stomp, you don't want to quit,
Put your heel where you're feelin' it.

Stomp
All night
In the neighbourhood
Don't it feel all right?
Gonna stomp
All night
Wanna party 'til the mornin' light
 
I gotta say, I didn't really expect Kuss to repeat, but I sure as hell didn't think he'd be 12th on GC going into the last decisive day.

I think having Vingo and Roglic with him scared off any other team's hopes.
I think, trying to be objective here (and I know, people are not going to trust be to be remotely objective given the subject matter), but I think there is an element of nobody being willing to go after Kuss' advantage because they'd have to answer to both Vingo and Roglič who would be able to follow and stay fresh anyway, so it was a hiding to nothing (plus the - at least initially, but as the race wore on, increasingly forlorn to the point of being totally worthless - hope that Kuss being in red could foment a bit of internal rivalry in the team that somebody else could profit from), but the whole "GC Kuss" thing was lightning in a bottle with the race win thanks to the other two being told to knock it off and play nice for PR reasons, and ended up being a poisoned chalice.

In some respects you could say that Sepp Kuss the GT contender has been rather more like a better version of Óscar Pereiro or David Arroyo when they got their time gift-adjusted successes. Pereiro was a class rider who had been 10th in the Tour in both 2004 and 2005, on the podium of the Tour de Suisse in 2003, and was only half an hour down because he'd dropped time to stagehunt. He only had a minute and a half from Landis, and held on to the final TT, but he didn't have anything like the support team Kuss had, with Valverde crashing out early, and Karpets and Arroyo his top helpers. The following year, operating as a GT leader with the #1 on his back, he finished... 10th (after the DQs). Right back where he left off. Likewise David Arroyo had been 10th in the Giro twice (2009's later upgraded to 8th) before his 2010 odyssey thanks to the time gift - and then when he went into the race as leader the following year he finished... 13th.

Kuss has managed GT top 10s and multiple top 20s before his surprise run to red last year, but they had largely been as a second- or third-in-command, and part of the current trend towards super teams where if you want to do a good GC but aren't a genuine victory threat, it is better for you to be a superdomestique in a superteam than a leader of a weaker team, as seen most obviously in this year's Tour de France where UAE put domestiques in 4th and 6th, and Soudal and Visma put domestiques in 5th and 8th respectively. That's how Sepp's only other GT top 10 - the 2021 Vuelta - had come about, elsewhere his best successes had come when he was relied on to stagehunt to salvage a race when the leader crashed out, like his stage win in Andorra in the 2021 Tour. Asking him to act as a sole leader aiming at the GC was always going to be a tough ask. Maybe if Pogačar hadn't gone for a Giro-Tour double and Roglič hadn't had to pull out of the Tour, it might have been a different story. Maybe if he'd stayed healthy early season and got some confidence-boosting strong results prior to Burgos to give both the team and himself some faith in his ability to perform as a leader, it might have been a different story. But instead, it looks very much like a tale we've seen many a time, of a strong rider finding themselves in an unexpected advantageous position and performing up to the level of the position, but then not being able to replicate it when their card is marked, whether it be audience expectations, whether it be being taken more seriously by the opposition, whether it be a change to internal team dynamics or a collection of all of them.

The question will be, whether this was a learning experience and he can then establish himself as a credible threat as more than a fringe GC rider and mountain stagehunter (think something like Rafał Majka in the mid-2010s perhaps?) and become more than a one-hit-wonder to become a legit GC threat, or whether he goes back to his superdomestique job, maybe Visma bring in another leader or jump Jorgenson or Uijtdebroecks above him in the pecking order and it's "GC KUSS: The SQUIB is DAMP" forevermore.
 
Plat d'Adet was 1'23 to guys like Buitrago and Ciccone, and it's a decent bit longer.

Lik sure, Pogacar probably wins comfortably, but it's way too much in Roglic' wheelhouse to be a full minute.
Dont use Pla d Adet as a reference, that climb was raced very, very differently to the climb today imo and is not really fair. Most of the hard part of that climb was raced in a very positive split and "only" at around 6 w/kg Id assume, allowing lots of riders to actually stay in the peloton before Pog took off. He could have gone a decent amount faster that day.
 
I think, trying to be objective here (and I know, people are not going to trust be to be remotely objective given the subject matter), but I think there is an element of nobody being willing to go after Kuss' advantage because they'd have to answer to both Vingo and Roglič who would be able to follow and stay fresh anyway, so it was a hiding to nothing (plus the - at least initially, but as the race wore on, increasingly forlorn to the point of being totally worthless - hope that Kuss being in red could foment a bit of internal rivalry in the team that somebody else could profit from), but the whole "GC Kuss" thing was lightning in a bottle with the race win thanks to the other two being told to knock it off and play nice for PR reasons, and ended up being a poisoned chalice.

In some respects you could say that Sepp Kuss the GT contender has been rather more like a better version of Óscar Pereiro or David Arroyo when they got their time gift-adjusted successes. Pereiro was a class rider who had been 10th in the Tour in both 2004 and 2005, on the podium of the Tour de Suisse in 2003, and was only half an hour down because he'd dropped time to stagehunt. He only had a minute and a half from Landis, and held on to the final TT, but he didn't have anything like the support team Kuss had, with Valverde crashing out early, and Karpets and Arroyo his top helpers. The following year, operating as a GT leader with the #1 on his back, he finished... 10th (after the DQs). Right back where he left off. Likewise David Arroyo had been 10th in the Giro twice (2009's later upgraded to 8th) before his 2010 odyssey thanks to the time gift - and then when he went into the race as leader the following year he finished... 13th.

Kuss has managed GT top 10s and multiple top 20s before his surprise run to red last year, but they had largely been as a second- or third-in-command, and part of the current trend towards super teams where if you want to do a good GC but aren't a genuine victory threat, it is better for you to be a superdomestique in a superteam than a leader of a weaker team, as seen most obviously in this year's Tour de France where UAE put domestiques in 4th and 6th, and Soudal and Visma put domestiques in 5th and 8th respectively. That's how Sepp's only other GT top 10 - the 2021 Vuelta - had come about, elsewhere his best successes had come when he was relied on to stagehunt to salvage a race when the leader crashed out, like his stage win in Andorra in the 2021 Tour. Asking him to act as a sole leader aiming at the GC was always going to be a tough ask. Maybe if Pogačar hadn't gone for a Giro-Tour double and Roglič hadn't had to pull out of the Tour, it might have been a different story. Maybe if he'd stayed healthy early season and got some confidence-boosting strong results prior to Burgos to give both the team and himself some faith in his ability to perform as a leader, it might have been a different story. But instead, it looks very much like a tale we've seen many a time, of a strong rider finding themselves in an unexpected advantageous position and performing up to the level of the position, but then not being able to replicate it when their card is marked, whether it be audience expectations, whether it be being taken more seriously by the opposition, whether it be a change to internal team dynamics or a collection of all of them.

The question will be, whether this was a learning experience and he can then establish himself as a credible threat as more than a fringe GC rider and mountain stagehunter (think something like Rafał Majka in the mid-2010s perhaps?) and become more than a one-hit-wonder to become a legit GC threat, or whether he goes back to his superdomestique job, maybe Visma bring in another leader or jump Jorgenson or Uijtdebroecks above him in the pecking order and it's "GC KUSS: The SQUIB is DAMP" forevermore.
There's possibly yet another variable; Kuss himself is so well liked other teams were prepared to help him, since they hate Jonas. The way Landa helped on Angliru for example.
 
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Reactions: Sandisfan
Too many words.
For certain Kuss benefitted from his teammates last year (once they stopped dropping him), but beyond that I just don't think he's got the same form he had last year. Whatever the reasons, sickness, increased expectation, maybe he just needs 3 grand tours in a row to reach his top level? Or maybe that's what did him in.
 
So Primoz strikes hard! Bora's acceleration was thermonuclear with three guys distancing the rest with ease, lol. Even Primoz was kinda cooked and slowed down a bit after Vlasov ended his job. Mas tried to counter but cooked himself, O'Connor was holding onto the leaders group for too long and paid the price at the end. After gap stabilization Primoz had the most in tank to increase it at the end. The race for red is obviously over, O'Connor can lose the podium tomorrow.
 
So Primoz strikes hard! Bora's acceleration was thermonuclear with three guys distancing the rest with ease, lol. Even Primoz was kinda cooked and slowed down a bit after Vlasov ended his job. Mas tried to counter but cooked himself, O'Connor was holding onto the leaders group for too long and paid the price at the end. After gap stabilization Primoz had the most in tank to increase it at the end. The race for red is obviously over, O'Connor can lose the podium tomorrow.
Just too much to be impressed with.. Including the 2 Bora riders settling down, getting enough to finish in great position despite absolutely burying themselves for Roglic lead out!! Impressed with Kuss who appeared completely cooked by salvaged something. For me having Del Toro riding in 3 decent breaks in his first GT has been enjoyable despite his wheels falling off for 2 days.
Overall I think that Roglic is poetry on a bike!! Guy just looks absolutely smooth, controlled, measured in every way!! Coming up the grade he looked like he was going for a coffee, or get some milk at the corner market.. Relaxed.
 
Plat d'Adet was 1'23 to guys like Buitrago and Ciccone, and it's a decent bit longer.

Lik sure, Pogacar probably wins comfortably, but it's way too much in Roglic' wheelhouse to be a full minute.
FWIW, your favorite number cruncher has Roglic today on about the same trend line as Pogacar on Plat d’Adet and as Contador on Verbier. Though of course he then goes on to say he wouldn’t be able to beat Remco because he’s biased that way.

 
I think, trying to be objective here (and I know, people are not going to trust be to be remotely objective given the subject matter), but I think there is an element of nobody being willing to go after Kuss' advantage because they'd have to answer to both Vingo and Roglič who would be able to follow and stay fresh anyway, so it was a hiding to nothing (plus the - at least initially, but as the race wore on, increasingly forlorn to the point of being totally worthless - hope that Kuss being in red could foment a bit of internal rivalry in the team that somebody else could profit from), but the whole "GC Kuss" thing was lightning in a bottle with the race win thanks to the other two being told to knock it off and play nice for PR reasons, and ended up being a poisoned chalice.

In some respects you could say that Sepp Kuss the GT contender has been rather more like a better version of Óscar Pereiro or David Arroyo when they got their time gift-adjusted successes. Pereiro was a class rider who had been 10th in the Tour in both 2004 and 2005, on the podium of the Tour de Suisse in 2003, and was only half an hour down because he'd dropped time to stagehunt. He only had a minute and a half from Landis, and held on to the final TT, but he didn't have anything like the support team Kuss had, with Valverde crashing out early, and Karpets and Arroyo his top helpers. The following year, operating as a GT leader with the #1 on his back, he finished... 10th (after the DQs). Right back where he left off. Likewise David Arroyo had been 10th in the Giro twice (2009's later upgraded to 8th) before his 2010 odyssey thanks to the time gift - and then when he went into the race as leader the following year he finished... 13th.

Kuss has managed GT top 10s and multiple top 20s before his surprise run to red last year, but they had largely been as a second- or third-in-command, and part of the current trend towards super teams where if you want to do a good GC but aren't a genuine victory threat, it is better for you to be a superdomestique in a superteam than a leader of a weaker team, as seen most obviously in this year's Tour de France where UAE put domestiques in 4th and 6th, and Soudal and Visma put domestiques in 5th and 8th respectively. That's how Sepp's only other GT top 10 - the 2021 Vuelta - had come about, elsewhere his best successes had come when he was relied on to stagehunt to salvage a race when the leader crashed out, like his stage win in Andorra in the 2021 Tour. Asking him to act as a sole leader aiming at the GC was always going to be a tough ask. Maybe if Pogačar hadn't gone for a Giro-Tour double and Roglič hadn't had to pull out of the Tour, it might have been a different story. Maybe if he'd stayed healthy early season and got some confidence-boosting strong results prior to Burgos to give both the team and himself some faith in his ability to perform as a leader, it might have been a different story. But instead, it looks very much like a tale we've seen many a time, of a strong rider finding themselves in an unexpected advantageous position and performing up to the level of the position, but then not being able to replicate it when their card is marked, whether it be audience expectations, whether it be being taken more seriously by the opposition, whether it be a change to internal team dynamics or a collection of all of them.

The question will be, whether this was a learning experience and he can then establish himself as a credible threat as more than a fringe GC rider and mountain stagehunter (think something like Rafał Majka in the mid-2010s perhaps?) and become more than a one-hit-wonder to become a legit GC threat, or whether he goes back to his superdomestique job, maybe Visma bring in another leader or jump Jorgenson or Uijtdebroecks above him in the pecking order and it's "GC KUSS: The SQUIB is DAMP" forevermore.
Same thing happens when a top 20 rider finishes inside the top 10 due to a breakaway, then they get some hype to keep this up only for them to go back to the top 20s.