Vuelta a España 2025 discussion

[Armchair Cyclist]

(I mean, maybe Vingegaard signs himself up as 'Jonas Hansen' in paces where he doesn't want it to be immediately obvious who he is.)

I thought he used the name 'Chris Harper' in such a situation.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Juan Ayuso looking like a bag of potatoes as he usually has a habit of doing in such races like today.

 

[Rou]

Juan Ayuso looking like a bag of potatoes as he usually has a habit of doing in such races like today.

Well, in the spring he was flying in one day races.
Now, 3 weeks before la Vuelta he looks horrible.
I hope Almeida is healthy otherwise it will be a walkover for Jonas.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Well, in the spring he was flying in one day races.
Now, 3 weeks before la Vuelta he looks horrible.
I hope Almeida is healthy otherwise it will be a walkover for Jonas.

Idunno man, the Vuelta was where Jonas suffered a crushing defeat at the hands of his most difficult opponent: Twitter.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Idunno man, the Vuelta was where Jonas suffered a crushing defeat at the hands of his most difficult opponent: Twitter.

That seemed like a very good example of damned if you do, damned if you don't. No winning there.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

That seemed like a very good example of damned if you do, damned if you don't. No winning there.

They were never going to keep everybody happy, but somehow the team managed to find a way to lock out the podium and still leave everybody looking weak: they didn't tell Roglič and Vingegaard to knock it off until after they'd exposed Kuss to be a lame duck champion that at least one of his teammates could easily have passed and which turns his career's crowning glory into a participation medal; they made themselves look weak by being too wishy-washy with their decision making, as if they wanted Kuss to win they were weak by not being strong enough to tell the big stars to behave themselves from the outset, and if they didn't care who won they look weak for then backing down because they were frightened of a negative reaction on social media; and Vingegaard and Roglič looked petulant and egotistical for attacking their own teammate, and then weak for meekly accepting their fate after being told to knock it off (and doing a very poor acting job around it too, especially Vingegaard dropping the seconds at the line very deliberately so he couldn't accidentally pass Kuss on bonus seconds).

They needed to pick a lane and then stick to it, and each lane would have annoyed somebody, but changing course in fear of bad press ended up with a complete mess of an outcome.

 

[Valv.Piti]

They were never going to keep everybody happy, but somehow the team managed to find a way to lock out the podium and still leave everybody looking weak: they didn't tell Roglič and Vingegaard to knock it off until after they'd exposed Kuss to be a lame duck champion that at least one of his teammates could easily have passed and which turns his career's crowning glory into a participation medal; they made themselves look weak by being too wishy-washy with their decision making, as if they wanted Kuss to win they were weak by not being strong enough to tell the big stars to behave themselves from the outset, and if they didn't care who won they look weak for then backing down because they were frightened of a negative reaction on social media; and Vingegaard and Roglič looked petulant and egotistical for attacking their own teammate, and then weak for meekly accepting their fate after being told to knock it off (and doing a very poor acting job around it too, especially Vingegaard dropping the seconds at the line very deliberately so he couldn't accidentally pass Kuss on bonus seconds).

They needed to pick a lane and then stick to it, and each lane would have annoyed somebody, but changing course in fear of bad press ended up with a complete mess of an outcome.

Oh, I was just talking about Jonas since it was him who you mentioned. I think after Tourmalet, when Remco fell behind and it seemed obvious that Jumbo was gonna win, he was put in a weird spot. Jonas then attacks afterwards and wins a minute and says on danish TV that he wanted to win on his daughter's birthday, and now it gets really weird when Roglic attacks on Angliru. From that point on, I really think there was no winning since people like me and many others wanted them to race and let the strongest legs decide, but others would have been up in arms if he took the jersey from Kuss (which he realistically easily could have done on La Cruz de la Linares).

And yes, you are right that it all made them look bad, especially Roglic I think. It was a bitter pill to swallow for him. What helped Kuss was the fact that Roglic and Jonas had both won GTs that year.

But that Vuelta might not come back to haunt Jonas after all since Pogi isn't racing anyways. But a GT is still a GT, goddamnit.

 

[Sciatic]

They were never going to keep everybody happy, but somehow the team managed to find a way to lock out the podium and still leave everybody looking weak: they didn't tell Roglič and Vingegaard to knock it off until after they'd exposed Kuss to be a lame duck champion that at least one of his teammates could easily have passed and which turns his career's crowning glory into a participation medal; they made themselves look weak by being too wishy-washy with their decision making, as if they wanted Kuss to win they were weak by not being strong enough to tell the big stars to behave themselves from the outset, and if they didn't care who won they look weak for then backing down because they were frightened of a negative reaction on social media; and Vingegaard and Roglič looked petulant and egotistical for attacking their own teammate, and then weak for meekly accepting their fate after being told to knock it off (and doing a very poor acting job around it too, especially Vingegaard dropping the seconds at the line very deliberately so he couldn't accidentally pass Kuss on bonus seconds).

They needed to pick a lane and then stick to it, and each lane would have annoyed somebody, but changing course in fear of bad press ended up with a complete mess of an outcome.

As time has gone by that decision has just looked worse and worse to me. At the time I was annoyed about missing out on what would have been intriguing competition and great entertainment, but was kinda glad for Kuss. That has soured with what’s happened since. Whether he really had the legs or not, in retrospect we see it was Roglic’s last chance to prove he was truely at the very top class with Vingegaard and Pogacar. I think the fact that Kuss has since collapsed as a significant player makes that Vuelta win seem even more hollow. And though you might think I would at least be pleased to have another American in the list of GC winners, it just looks empty compared to how Lemond, Hampsted, and even Horner had to battle to get their titles.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Ayuso not necessarily looking like a rider ready to contest Jonas Vingegaard, but still 3 weeks to go and he looked better today. I don't think you need to come in blazing in this year's Vuelta really. If mou is correct, Almeida is is peak shape and elected to DNF to prepare for this Vuelta instead of helping Pog, so we could be in for a good one.

 

[HashRouge]

Ayuso not necessarily looking like a rider ready to contest Jonas Vingegaard, but still 3 weeks to go and he looked better today. I don't think you need to come in blazing in this year's Vuelta really. If mou is correct, Almeida is is peak shape and elected to DNF to prepare for this Vuelta instead of helping Pog, so we could be in for a good one.

How could the rest of us not realise that he engineered that crash himself, then faked having a broken rib so that he could leave the Tour early before the mountain stages had even begun...

 

[noob]

How could the rest of us not realise that he engineered that crash himself, then faked having a broken rib so that he could leave the Tour early before the mountain stages had even begun...

That explains everything! Almeida never crashes so of course if he does it has to be because it was on purpose.

But the most recent theory is glamour spells! Almeida and Roglic has face and body swapped to give us the illusion that Rogla finished the tour while Almeida crashed. We all know that would be impossible! Now we finally have all explanations needed. We need to get to the bottom of this conspiracy!

Unite against all evil 😈

 

[Tim Cahill]

It's like when they announced that Fat Ronaldo wasn't going to playing in the final in 1998. The race is now carrying an asterisk without its main character.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1952117133862904065

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Idunno man, the Vuelta was where Jonas suffered a crushing defeat at the hands of his most difficult opponent: Twitter.

That's why you never argue with Twitter goons. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

 

[Gigs_98]

Still think Visma handing the victory to Kuss was more interesting than the alternative of either Roglic or Vingegaard leading and the other one still probably not allowed to attack. At least we got some very spicy inter team drama.

 

[Netserk]

Still think Visma handing the victory to Kuss was more interesting than the alternative of either Roglic or Vingegaard leading and the other one still probably not allowed to attack. At least we got some very spicy inter team drama.

I think the alternative was Rogla forcing a three-sided intra-team battle for the title.

I've come around, and I now think Rogla should have raced Bejes as an all-out GC battle and chased Vingegaard, optics be damned.

 

[Gigs_98]

I think the alternative was Rogla forcing a three-sided intra-team battle for the title.

I've come around, and I now think Rogla should have raced Bejes as an all-out GC battle and chased Vingegaard, optics be damned.

That's what would have given us the best gc battle but I don't think this was ever gonna happen. I think without Kuss, Bejes is raced exactly like it was raced and Visma freezes the gc afterwards. Roglic couldn't drop Vingegaard on the Angliru anyway, the one place he probably did go all out, and Visma was never gonna set up a big mountain battle on Cruz de Linares or a hilly stage 20. The race would have been decided by luck, Roglic would be unhappy anyway, but there would have been a lot less intrigue. The way it played out Roglic essentially had the power to mess up Kuss' victory, but we didn't know whether he would use it. As boring as it ended up being, at least that was a very unique dynamic that I never saw before.

 

[Netserk]

That's what would have given us the best gc battle but I don't think this was ever gonna happen. I think without Kuss, Bejes is raced exactly like it was raced and Visma freezes the gc afterwards. Roglic couldn't drop Vingegaard on the Angliru anyway, the one place he probably did go all out, and Visma was never gonna set up a big mountain battle on Cruz de Linares or a hilly stage 20. The race would have been decided by luck, Roglic would be unhappy anyway, but there would have been a lot less intrigue. The way it played out Roglic essentially had the power to mess up Kuss' victory, but we didn't know whether he would use it. As boring as it ended up being, at least that was a very unique dynamic that I never saw before.

The deal on the last rest day was for everyone to be free to race for GC, so I don't see why that wouldn't happen. Rogla insisted that just like they agreed pre-race, he'd still be free to race for the overall victory.

Vingegaard was happy on the rest day to freeze GC, as they then had no threats in GC and could easily secure the victory for Kuss and full podium for the team. But that wouldn't become the team policy until the top of Angliru.

The problem was that the pre-stage plan on Bejes was to go for the stage win (in a sprint with Rogla), so when Vingegaard assessed the situation and asked for permission to attack early on the climb, the others were caught on the wrong foot. Rogla and Kuss didn't ride for GC then, but merely rode defensively to secure the stage win and the overall podium. So when the other teams didn't chase Vingegaard, he leapfrogged Rogla in GC and could then enforce a truce by simply marking Rogla the rest of the race.

Had Rogla been ahead of Vingegaard in GC, he'd have continued to attack Kuss on the last stages.

 

[Red Rick]

I think the alternative was Rogla forcing a three-sided intra-team battle for the title.

I've come around, and I now think Rogla should have raced Bejes as an all-out GC battle and chased Vingegaard, optics be damned.

You mean like Vingegaard crossed to Roglic on Jalavambre and nobody cried wolf?

 

[Red Rick]

That's what would have given us the best gc battle but I don't think this was ever gonna happen. I think without Kuss, Bejes is raced exactly like it was raced and Visma freezes the gc afterwards. Roglic couldn't drop Vingegaard on the Angliru anyway, the one place he probably did go all out, and Visma was never gonna set up a big mountain battle on Cruz de Linares or a hilly stage 20. The race would have been decided by luck, Roglic would be unhappy anyway, but there would have been a lot less intrigue. The way it played out Roglic essentially had the power to mess up Kuss' victory, but we didn't know whether he would use it. As boring as it ended up being, at least that was a very unique dynamic that I never saw before.

For Roglic that race was a lot like the 2020 Tour. He was probably the best climber in the race before the Pyrenees and didn't use it or didn't get to use it, and once Vingegaard started getting his legs under him he just blasted off immediately.

 

[Netserk]

You mean like Vingegaard crossed to Roglic on Jalavambre and nobody cried wolf?

It looks worse if you don't make it across, and especially so if rivals are on your wheel.

I think he should have chased even after it became clear that Vingegaard was gone.

 

[iBanesto]

Almeida might have a chance because the route is so bad, but Vinge should still smash him on Angliru and Bola Del Mundo.

No chance Almeida can keep up with Vingegaard on the steepest parts of the Angliru.

The Almeida-Ayuso battle will be most interesting.

 

[Gigs_98]

The deal on the last rest day was for everyone to be free to race for GC, so I don't see why that wouldn't happen. Rogla insisted that just like they agreed pre-race, he'd still be free to race for the overall victory.

Vingegaard was happy on the rest day to freeze GC, as they then had no threats in GC and could easily secure the victory for Kuss and full podium for the team. But that wouldn't become the team policy until the top of Angliru.

The problem was that the pre-stage plan on Bejes was to go for the stage win (in a sprint with Rogla), so when Vingegaard assessed the situation and asked for permission to attack early on the climb, the others were caught on the wrong foot. Rogla and Kuss didn't ride for GC then, but merely rode defensively to secure the stage win and the overall podium. So when the other teams didn't chase Vingegaard, he leapfrogged Rogla in GC and could then enforce a truce by simply marking Rogla the rest of the race.

Had Rogla been ahead of Vingegaard in GC, he'd have continued to attack Kuss on the last stages.

But do we have any indication Vingegaard would have raced Bejes differently if Kuss wasn't there? His tactic seems to be independent of whether he had 1 or 2 teammates ahead of him on gc. Perhaps Roglic would have responded without Kuss there but again I don't see why the existence of another gc rider in their team should have a drastic impact on his tactics in that moment.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Still think Visma handing the victory to Kuss was more interesting than the alternative of either Roglic or Vingegaard leading and the other one still probably not allowed to attack. At least we got some very spicy inter team drama.

Yes, those badly-acted group rides in week 3 were far more interesting than a race would have been. They could at least have given us some stage-managed fun like the post-Tour crits or something.

 

[Netserk]

But do we have any indication Vingegaard would have raced Bejes differently if Kuss wasn't there? His tactic seems to be independent of whether he had 2 or 3 teammates ahead of him on gc. Perhaps Roglic would have responded without Kuss there but again I don't see why another gc rider in their team should drastically change his tactics.

Why would Kuss not be there???

We should and we could easily have had a proper GC battle with Kuss present. My point was that the default scenario was a race for first after the second rest day, and it was only because of the tactical situation on Bejes that prevented that. Had Rogla chased Vingegaard, he'd not have lost so much time to him then. Or had Vingegaard been passive.

 

[Gigs_98]

Yes, those group rides in week 3 were far more interesting than a race would have been.

C'mon, at least read my post to the end. I'm saying that what we got was better than if Vingegaard and Roglic had been holding hands, just without Kuss.