WADA: Armstrong investigation to drop "bomb" shortly.

[Anonymous]

The end result for BALCO was Victor Conte got 4 months, Greg Anderson got 13 months.

Several atheletes/coaches were convicted of obstructing justice/perjury/false statement type charges. I think it was 3 (Marion Jones, Tammy Thomas and Trevor Graham). If they ever actually try Bonds, it could get to 4.

From a numbers standpoint, there wasnt a whole lot of impact. For actual charges relating to the initial crime investigated, only 2 guys paid any penalty... less then 2 years in total. While several others were sent to jail for lying, only two people were actually punished from the initial investigation.


I expect something similar from this case... a very small number of people punished for the actual crime being investigated, with a somewhat larger pool of those getting perjury/obstruction type charges.

No, the end result of BALCO is that baseball is a cleaner sport now, and having hulking hitters like Bonds, McGwire, etc have turned into hitters of a much more normal size who don't hit over 70 HR's. You mistake the sanctions of those involved from the real reason for the investigation. They, at least in part, made baseball a cleaner sport.

So, regardless of who gets busted, what Landis has done, and what this investigation is doing is exposing reality. How we as fans deal with it will ultimately determine, at least in part, the level of doping in the sport that I believe all here love on some level. (that includes members from any side of any debate).

The fact that a fraud like Armstrong goes down in the process is just icing on the cake.

 

[Anonymous]

13 people were sentenced thanks to BALCO but the impact was far beyond it's judicial success. The BALCO case helped exposed to the public not only the pervasive use of doping in sports but also the efforts dopers use to cover up their doping.

Expect the Armstrong case to show not just the pervasive use of doping in the sport but also the efforts to cover it up and create a myth for commercial benefit.

An even better explanation than the one I provided.

 

[MarkvW]

You gotta get informed

BALCO was a petty distribution channel? **** me you are a special type of ***. You do remember what was going on at Balco, the design and production of undetectable steroids and medical programs based on (at the time) undetectable drugs. You do realise that WADA came up with a new rule because of the way that BALCO were circumventing the testing procedure by using drugs that were PEDs but not on the banned list and also the fact that Victor Conte gave a lot of evidence on how programs were designed to beat tests. You did know all that didn't you?

BALCO was only a distribution front. Conte was a musician, for chrissake. Patrick Arnold was the synthesist. He made 'the clear.'

 

[buckwheat]

No, the end result of BALCO is that baseball is a cleaner sport now, and having hulking hitters like Bonds, McGwire, etc have turned into hitters of a much more normal size who don't hit over 70 HR's. You mistake the sanctions of those involved from the real reason for the investigation. They, at least in part, made baseball a cleaner sport.

So, regardless of who gets busted, what Landis has done, and what this investigation is doing is exposing reality. How we as fans deal with it will ultimately determine, at least in part, the level of doping in the sport that I believe all here love on some level. (that includes members from any side of any debate).
The fact that a fraud like Armstrong goes down in the process is just icing on the cake.

I really object to that statement. I think YOU personally, are on the absolute correct side of the argument, but I think you're being entirely too generous to these supposed fans who are apologists for doping and doped athletes. I think you're giving a charity they don't deserve. You may be a lot bigger man than I am, but I find the attitude of the fanboys and apologists unforgivable. They have to come around to see the error of their ways or else be continually rebuked into oblivion if that's possible.

You know who loves the sport? The little kids riding around on their bikes, whatever kinds of bikes they are. The people riding their single speed beach cruisers or junkers as transportation or just to enjoy a beautiful day. Sometimes I sit on a bench on the beach with my road bike after a ride and people come up to me and say "cool bike" whatever. I tell them, their bike is just as good if not better, they're out riding, enjoying the day, drinking a beer, having a good time, getting exercise. People come out with that "hey,Lance Armstrong" joking, and I might say, "yeah, but I don't take drugs" and they look all confused. EFF these P'sOS! (Pro's enforcing Omerta, Organizational Lackeys, etc)

These people (fans?) trying to establish a cult of personality around their favorite fraudulent heroes, are nightmares. You and I have seen the ridiculous lengths they will go to to justify complete bs.

 

[flicker]

I really object to that statement. I think YOU personally, are on the absolute correct side of the argument, but I think you're being entirely too generous to these supposed fans who are apologists for doping and doped athletes. I think you're giving a charity they don't deserve. You may be a lot bigger man than I am, but I find the attitude of the fanboys and apologists unforgivable. They have to come around to see the error of their ways or else be continually rebuked into oblivion if that's possible.

You know who loves the sport? The little kids riding around on their bikes, whatever kinds of bikes they are. The people riding their single speed beach cruisers or junkers as transportation or just to enjoy a beautiful day. Sometimes I sit on a bench on the beach with my road bike after a ride and people come up to me and say "cool bike" whatever. I tell them, their bike is just as good if not better, they're out riding, enjoying the day, drinking a beer, having a good time, getting exercise. People come out with that "hey,Lance Armstrong" joking, and I might say, "yeah, but I don't take drugs" and they look all confused. EFF these P'sOS! (Pro's enforcing Omerta, Organizational Lackeys, etc)

These people (fans?) trying to establish a cult of personality around their favorite fraudulent heroes, are nightmares. You and I have seen the ridiculous lengths they will go to to justify complete bs.

If it makes you feel good to tell people Lance was on drugs you are ruining peoples day. Let people come to their own conclusions. The beach isn't the forum. nor is it your Saturday club ride. Save your negativity for the 60 year old you outsprint at the next city limit sign.

 

[Oldman]

13 people were sentenced thanks to BALCO but the impact was far beyond it's judicial success. The BALCO case helped exposed to the public not only the pervasive use of doping in sports but also the efforts dopers use to cover up their doping.

Expect the Armstrong case to show not just the pervasive use of doping in the sport but also the efforts to cover it up and create a myth for commercial benefit.

BALCO also stopped the distribution of an illegal steriod that stood a chance at getting even wider distribution. All of that within US borders. This case could be significant in that it would establish better cooperation between enforcement agencies of other countries to prevent international distribution. While we think Lance is a big story (and he is) the control of prescription drugs is a security issue for all countries IMO. That a rogue country could distribute something willingly across borders is certainaly not on everyone's mind but it would be if a tainted element cause widespread illness.

 

[Boeing]

the real story is who will be the first to get the post topic once CN headlines? and will it be a sticky?

 

[flicker]

I really object to that statement. I think YOU personally, are on the absolute correct side of the argument, but I think you're being entirely too generous to these supposed fans who are apologists for doping and doped athletes. I think you're giving a charity they don't deserve. You may be a lot bigger man than I am, but I find the attitude of the fanboys and apologists unforgivable. They have to come around to see the error of their ways or else be continually rebuked into oblivion if that's possible.

You know who loves the sport? The little kids riding around on their bikes, whatever kinds of bikes they are. The people riding their single speed beach cruisers or junkers as transportation or just to enjoy a beautiful day. Sometimes I sit on a bench on the beach with my road bike after a ride and people come up to me and say "cool bike" whatever. I tell them, their bike is just as good if not better, they're out riding, enjoying the day, drinking a beer, having a good time, getting exercise. People come out with that "hey,Lance Armstrong" joking, and I might say, "yeah, but I don't take drugs" and they look all confused. EFF these P'sOS! (Pro's enforcing Omerta, Organizational Lackeys, etc)

These people (fans?) trying to establish a cult of personality around their favorite fraudulent heroes, are nightmares. You and I have seen the ridiculous lengths they will go to to justify complete bs.

You could tke your crusade a step further and tell them cycling leads to doping. You could be like the temperance league before prohibiton and lead marches of well meaning little old ladies, 'cept intead of alcohol you could kick them kids off n them bikes. You know bike n be leading to doping.

 

[JRTinMA]

13 people were sentenced thanks to BALCO but the impact was far beyond it's judicial success. The BALCO case helped exposed to the public not only the pervasive use of doping in sports but also the efforts dopers use to cover up their doping.

Expect the Armstrong case to show not just the pervasive use of doping in the sport but also the efforts to cover it up and create a myth for commercial benefit.

Is it 11? Bonds and Clemens have not been sentenced/convicted. I agree with you 100%, you are one of the best contributors on here but I also stand by my assertion that LA will never see a day behind bars. I know he was a doper and deserves to be brought down but I still say he walks away beaten but still standing. If that makes me a fanboy for a reasoned argument then so be it. LA has a similar story to Graham and Graham was up for 30 years and he practically put dope in athletes bodies. I see a judge looking at a couple of lives that came from nothing and made themselves famous based on a lie. He got 1 year house arrest because the judge saw him as a decent man gone wrong, and he didn't even have a charity. Time will tell.

 

[Hugh Januss]

the real story is who will be the first to get the post topic once CN headlines? and will it be a sticky?

My money would be on the hog, but only after his 17th false alarm.
It won't need to be a sticky, as it will be all people will post about for days, including the fanboys who will be making their final last stand by claiming that since Lance only got a 3 year suspended sentence he is still innocent because he "never served time behind bars".

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Is it 11? Bonds and Clemens have not been sentenced/convicted. I agree with you 100%, you are one of the best contributors on here but I also stand by my assertion that LA will never see a day behind bars. I know he was a doper and deserves to be brought down but I still say he walks away beaten but still standing. If that makes me a fanboy for a reasoned argument then so be it. LA has a similar story to Graham and Graham was up for 30 years and he practically put dope in athletes bodies. I see a judge looking at a couple of lives that came from nothing and made themselves famous based on a lie. He got 1 year house arrest because the judge saw him as a decent man gone wrong, and he didn't even have a charity. Time will tell.

Question is - does any of that matter?

I don't see LA doing any jail time - unless for perjury. But once it is in the public that he was at the centre of deliberate and sophisticated doping regime his legacy will be in tatters.

For someone as narcissistic and egotistical as Armstrong that is a heavy punishment.

Very few know (or care) who Graham is, lots know Armstrong - he will not like being the posterboy of doping in the US.

 

[buckwheat]

You could tke your crusade a step further and tell them cycling leads to doping. You could be like the temperance league before prohibiton and lead marches of well meaning little old ladies, 'cept intead of alcohol you could kick them kids off n them bikes. You know bike n be leading to doping.

Pacificslim, please take your horse$hit back to the Pharmstrong fanboy section of the internets.

Nice perversion of what I wrote.

I was addressing fanboy nonsense, such as yours, ie. not real fans; as opposed to little kids and others riding for pleasure, real fans.

 

[Boeing]

My money would be on the hog, but only after his 17th false alarm.
It won't need to be a sticky, as it will be all people will post about for days, including the fanboys who will be making their final last stand by claiming that since Lance only got a 3 year suspended sentence he is still innocent because he "never served time behind bars".

what is the over/under on ozre-cyclingfan94? I will go with -30 seconds with a deviation yet to be determined

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Pacificslim, please take your horse$hit back to the Pharmstrong fanboy section of the internets.

Nice perversion of what I wrote.

I was addressing fanboy nonsense, such as yours, not real fans, as opposed to little kids and others riding for pleasure, real fans.

Don't waste time with that guy.

 

[Race Radio]

Is it 11? Bonds and Clemens have not been sentenced/convicted. I agree with you 100%, you are one of the best contributors on here but I also stand by my assertion that LA will never see a day behind bars. I know he was a doper and deserves to be brought down but I still say he walks away beaten but still standing. If that makes me a fanboy for a reasoned argument then so be it. LA has a similar story to Graham and Graham was up for 30 years and he practically put dope in athletes bodies. I see a judge looking at a couple of lives that came from nothing and made themselves famous based on a lie. He got 1 year house arrest because the judge saw him as a decent man gone wrong, and he didn't even have a charity. Time will tell.

I tend to agree with this. If you look at the BALCO case the central challenge was lack of witnesses. The reason Bonds and Clemens feel comfortable fighting in court, beyond their own arrogance, is there are only 1-2 witnesses for each.

This is not the case for Armstrong. Novitzky has been overwhelmed by people coming forward to talk. By the time there is an indictment the case will be far more secure then Bonds/Clemens, Armstrong would be foolish to go forward. As we saw with BALCO and the penalties for those who tell the truth are minor.

Armstrong has been a very litigious person, but there is one constant, He always settles. While he likes to trumpet his settlements as "Victories" he always settles.

 

[Oldman]

I tend to agree with this. If you look at the BALCO case the central challenge was lack of witnesses. The reason Bonds and Clemens feel comfortable fighting in court, beyond their own arrogance, is there are only 1-2 witnesses for each.

This is not the case for Armstrong. Novitzky has been overwhelmed by people coming forward to talk. By the time there is an indictment the case will be far more secure then Bonds/Clemens, Armstrong would be foolish to go forward. As we saw with BALCO and the penalties for those who tell the truth are minor.

Armstrong has been a very litigious person, but there is one constant, He always settles. While he likes to trumpet his settlements as "Victories" he always settles.

Next question is; when he "settles" (gives up information in exchange for avoiding penalties) who do you think he'll give them that's compelling enough to save himself? He can't throw money at this problem, other than the boatload he's spending to defend against an investigation where he hasn't been charged (speaking of dropping a "bomb"-he's got to be feeling an itch in an uncomfortable spot).

 

[Polish]

Doping in Pro Cycling IS "bigger than Balco" of course. WADA is correct duh.
Doping in Cycling is Major League, doping is Baseball is bush league in comparision.

And I am not even including the defunct operations like Puerto or the Austrian Labs or the EPO usage last century. Right now, Clen and HGH and Steroids are being sold on the interwebs and eleswhere. To Pro Cyclists.


Now if we want to bring Lance into the picture, it gets more sensational!

1) Lance vs Novitzky in a Court of Law.....If/when Lance gets indicted and faces Novitzky in Court - who will win? Silly question I just hope Lance gets indicted on SEVEN counts, so he can DEFEAT them one after another, all in a row, ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE SIX SEVEN!

2) Lance vs Novitzky in the Court of Public Opinion....Has Novitzsky ever heard of fanboys? Barry Bonds did not have too many of them lol. Novitzky faced just a bit of backlash with Balco - but nothing compared to what he will face when he goes up against Lance. Novitzky is spitting into the wind.

 

[MarkvW]

Lance ain't gonna do time.

Is it 11? Bonds and Clemens have not been sentenced/convicted. I agree with you 100%, you are one of the best contributors on here but I also stand by my assertion that LA will never see a day behind bars. I know he was a doper and deserves to be brought down but I still say he walks away beaten but still standing. If that makes me a fanboy for a reasoned argument then so be it. LA has a similar story to Graham and Graham was up for 30 years and he practically put dope in athletes bodies. I see a judge looking at a couple of lives that came from nothing and made themselves famous based on a lie. He got 1 year house arrest because the judge saw him as a decent man gone wrong, and he didn't even have a charity. Time will tell.

Lance isn't going to do any time for doping violations. Federal judges sentence really BAD people to jail. Bike doping in a foreign country? Make me laugh!

Lance probably won't do time even if found guilty of perjury. Look at Tammy Thomas.

Lance might do some time if found guilty of defrauding the USA. Big, huge statute of limitations problems there, in addition to difficulty of making a fraud case. That one is very difficult to predict from the outside.

The Lance haters should take a chill pill on the jail thing. Ratchet up the hate on something else. Jail is serious stuff--bike racing . . . Not so much.

 

[buckwheat]

Doping in Pro Cycling IS "bigger than Balco" of course. WADA is correct duh.
Doping in Cycling is Major League, doping is Baseball is bush league in comparision.

And I am not even including the defunct operations like Puerto or the Austrian Labs or the EPO usage last century. Right now, Clen and HGH and Steroids are being sold on the interwebs and eleswhere. To Pro Cyclists.


Now if we want to bring Lance into the picture, it gets more sensational!

1) Lance vs Novitzky in a Court of Law.....If/when Lance gets indicted and faces Novitzky in Court - who will win? Silly question I just hope Lance gets indicted on SEVEN counts, so he can DEFEAT them one after another, all in a row, ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE SIX SEVEN!

2) Lance vs Novitzky in the Court of Public Opinion[/b]....Has Novitzsky ever heard of fanboys? Barry Bonds did not have too many of them lol. Novitzky faced just a bit of backlash with Balco - but nothing compared to what he will face when he goes up against Lance. Novitzky is spitting into the wind.

You don't think Novitzky is afraid of these pus$y's?

 

[buckwheat]

Lance isn't going to do any time for doping violations. Federal judges sentence really BAD people to jail. Bike doping in a foreign country? Make me laugh!

Lance probably won't do time even if found guilty of perjury. Look at Tammy Thomas.

Lance might do some time if found guilty of defrauding the USA. Big, huge statute of limitations problems there, in addition to difficulty of making a fraud case. That one is very difficult to predict from the outside.

The Lance haters should take a chill pill on the jail thing. Ratchet up the hate on something else. Jail is serious stuff--bike racing . . . Not so much.

Please, from an expert perspective; what about the apologists?

 

[JRTinMA]

Question is - does any of that matter?

I don't see LA doing any jail time - unless for perjury. But once it is in the public that he was at the centre of deliberate and sophisticated doping regime his legacy will be in tatters.

For someone as narcissistic and egotistical as Armstrong that is a heavy punishment.

Very few know (or care) who Graham is, lots know Armstrong - he will not like being the posterboy of doping in the US.

It doesn't matter at all, the question is will LA be Clemens/Bonds or A-Rod/Big Papi? If he continues down the road that he has in the past by attacking everybody he will be the former. If he shuts up and cuts a deal he will be the latter. He can't possibly be stupid enough to not see what happened to all the one who perjured themselves, its not possible. He will let others take the rap though, I don't doubt that for a minute.

 

[MarkvW]

The Apologists?

Is it 11? Bonds and Clemens have not been sentenced/convicted. I agree with you 100%, you are one of the best contributors on here but I also stand by my assertion that LA will never see a day behind bars. I know he was a doper and deserves to be brought down but I still say he walks away beaten but still standing. If that makes me a fanboy for a reasoned argument then so be it. LA has a similar story to Graham and Graham was up for 30 years and he practically put dope in athletes bodies. I see a judge looking at a couple of lives that came from nothing and made themselves famous based on a lie. He got 1 year house arrest because the judge saw him as a decent man gone wrong, and he didn't even have a charity. Time will tell.

Please, from an expert perspective; what about the apologists?

That's easy! Ridicule the apologists!

 

[Animal]

Doping in Pro Cycling IS "bigger than Balco" of course. WADA is correct duh.
Doping in Cycling is Major League, doping is Baseball is bush league in comparision.

And I am not even including the defunct operations like Puerto or the Austrian Labs or the EPO usage last century. Right now, Clen and HGH and Steroids are being sold on the interwebs and eleswhere. To Pro Cyclists.


Now if we want to bring Lance into the picture, it gets more sensational!

1) Lance vs Novitzky in a Court of Law.....If/when Lance gets indicted and faces Novitzky in Court - who will win? Silly question I just hope Lance gets indicted on SEVEN counts, so he can DEFEAT them one after another, all in a row, ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE SIX SEVEN!

2) Lance vs Novitzky in the Court of Public Opinion....Has Novitzsky ever heard of fanboys? Barry Bonds did not have too many of them lol. Novitzky faced just a bit of backlash with Balco - but nothing compared to what he will face when he goes up against Lance. Novitzky is spitting into the wind.

Ridiculous.

 

[Race Radio]

[/B]

Next question is; when he "settles" (gives up information in exchange for avoiding penalties) who do you think he'll give them that's compelling enough to save himself? He can't throw money at this problem, other than the boatload he's spending to defend against an investigation where he hasn't been charged (speaking of dropping a "bomb"-he's got to be feeling an itch in an uncomfortable spot).

Financially Armstrong is about to hit an inflection point that could be very painful. He lives big, and expensive. The Jet, the houses, the baby mommas. Add to this the Fabricator at $30,000 per month and $100,000 a month in legal fees. It all adds up.

As his popularity drops his demand as a speaker falls. Existing sponsors are not renewing. Large sponsors like RadioShack are in the final year of their agreement and will be gone in a year. Add to this Armstrong has been an aggressive investor for years and like many aggressive investors he got hit hard the last few years.

Money was the motivation behind the comeback. Money will be the driver of the settlement. Take a hit, say you doped, and toss Weisel under the bus. Sell the jet, a house or two, and do infomercials for ShamWow and sell bracelets on QVC.

 

[JRTinMA]

Lance isn't going to do any time for doping violations. Federal judges sentence really BAD people to jail. Bike doping in a foreign country? Make me laugh!

Lance probably won't do time even if found guilty of perjury. Look at Tammy Thomas.

Lance might do some time if found guilty of defrauding the USA. Big, huge statute of limitations problems there, in addition to difficulty of making a fraud case. That one is very difficult to predict from the outside.

The Lance haters should take a chill pill on the jail thing. Ratchet up the hate on something else. Jail is serious stuff--bike racing . . . Not so much.

I do bra, I always do... Say what you want about her but she would be good in a street fight as well.

http://www.bicycle.net/2008/us-cyclist-tammy-thomas-faces-charges-in-the-first-balco-doping-trial