WADA: Armstrong investigation to drop "bomb" shortly.

[buckwheat]

Of course it is, no argument there at all. The question becomes one of credibility of witness. There has already been evidential discrepancies between Andreu and the Lemonds in past civil cases. This would be used by the defence to cast doubt on any testimony given that is not backed up by corroborating evidence. 'Beyond reasonable doubt' is a high level of proof, this is not a balance of probability matter as in civil cases.

Despite the peurile fanboy comments to the contrary, I do not hero worship LA or any sportsperson, I merely admire their achievements. For me this isn't an issue of whether I think Armstrong has doped or not, it is an issue of whether it can be legally proved he has doped. That has not occurred and in my view it probably won't be. I have never posted a post at any time stating that my personal beliefs as to whether Armstrong rode clean or otherwise. What I have been consistent in, is challenging presuppositions based upon biased views of the issue and in many cases, wishful thinking.

Personally i don't care if you know Armstrong personally or not, or if you consider him to be a complete tosser. In fact you may well be right, but then again he may think the same about you. For me a persons personality is not part of the equation, sport is not a popularity contest and plenty of people considered Merckx and Hinault to be arrogant *** too.

I would almost never recommend to anyone that they read anything in the True Crime genre, because it's awful stuff.

For you, however, I would strongly urge you to read ANYHTHING on Investigating procedure, and evidence gathering.

Clearly, you don't have the faintest idea of what evidence actually is.

There is enough evidence in the Armstrong matter, that were this a murder investigation, this amount of evidence could put 10 different killers on death row.

Most murder convictions rely on almost entirely circumstantial evidence. If an investigator gets any direct evidence, the case is wrapped up fairly quickly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_evidence

The grand jury is in the process of getting a lot of direct evidence.

The only task remaining in the Armstrong investigation is the assembly of the direct evidence into a cohesive narrative with the mountain of circumstantial evidence, and the exposure of bigger fish than Armstrong.

 

[Oldman]

I would almost never recommend to anyone that they read anything in the True Crime genre, because it's awful stuff.

For you, however, I would strongly urge you to read ANYHTHING on Investigating procedure, and evidence gathering.

Clearly, you don't have the faintest idea of what evidence actually is.

There is enough evidence in the Armstrong matter, that were this a murder investigation, this amount of evidence could put 10 different killers on death row.

Most murder convictions rely on almost entirely circumstantial evidence. If an investigator gets any direct evidence, the case is wrapped up fairly quickly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_evidence

The grand jury is in the process of getting a lot of direct evidence.

The only task remaining in the Armstrong investigation is the assembly of the direct evidence into a cohesive narrative with the mountain of circumstantial evidence, and the exposure of bigger fish than Armstrong.

Spartacus is going to be really surprised when LA plea bargains out of a wire-fraud charge. He could still crow that he "wasn't proven to have doped" because he just facilitated the supply to his lesser talented teammates.

 

[scribe]

I can't ever remember an instance where a group of people say they saw so-and-so doing coke, and the authorities arresting and prosecuting that person. I don't even think this is the case for drug dealers. They usually need hard evidence, ie. caught with the goods or cash.

 

[buckwheat]

I can't ever remember an instance where a group of people say they saw so-and-so doing coke, and the authorities arresting and prosecuting that person. I don't even think this is the case for drug dealers. They usually need hard evidence, ie. caught with the goods or cash.

remember zzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Berzin]

Spartacus is going to be really surprised when LA plea bargains out of a wire-fraud charge. He could still crow that he "wasn't proven to have doped" because he just facilitated the supply to his lesser talented teammates.

Those "lesser talented teammates" you refer to are currently giving evidence of the systematic doping that occurred on the team, and that Armstrong was a user and not just a facilitator.

No way can he say different.

 

[DirtyWorks]

See Tommy Chong

When have the authorities been interested in recreational drug use on a small scale?

The Armstrong apologists just can't use the Fed's case against Tommy Chong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Chong Look under "legal troubles"

I wish they would use Tommy's case, because it would highlight the amount of mental gymnastics required to give Pharmstrong a free pass. It gives their "wasting taxpayer monies" all kinds of legitimacy. Once the Chong<->Armstrong association is made, all kinds of hilarity ensues.

I know many on this thread have strong views and seem pretty committed to the idea Pharmstrong's going down. Don't be surprised if Pharmstrong does not end up being prosecuted for felony violations. The Congressional politics of the Agency doing the investigation come into play when Pharmstrong's money will be used to fund Congressional campaigns.

 

[scribe]

How would you remember it?

When have the authorities been interested in recreational drug use on a small scale?



Someone I know grows weed and rides his bike around with it. He was in an altercation with a motorist which escalated, the police were called, and he was arrested for the small amount of weed, and pills he had, without a prescription, which WAS legitimate, btw.

And so, doping one's self within tolerances of sporting controls, on foreign soil (unless otherwise proven) is likely the most damnable charges that might be interpreted with all this testimony.... What else is there that isn't just wild speculation?

 

[eleven]

Those "lesser talented teammates" you refer to are currently giving evidence of the systematic doping that occurred on the team, and that Armstrong was a user and not just a facilitator.

No way can he say different.

No one has any idea what those lesser teammates are giving evidence of - the only thing known for certain is that exactly 1 person on the broken-down bus has claimed it was stopped for doping. That one person isn't exactly an unassailable witness and those who have said it didn't happen outnumber him by many.

 

[Race Radio]

No one has any idea what those lesser teammates are giving evidence of - the only thing known for certain is that exactly 1 person on the broken-down bus has claimed it was stopped for doping. That one person isn't exactly an unassailable witness and those who have said it didn't happen outnumber him by many.

Keep Hope Alive!

 

[eleven]

Keep Hope Alive!

So, you have nothing factual to add to the discussion? Color me surprised.

I'm actually confident that the investigation will lead to charges and convictions against more than one person. Just not the person you're hoping for - nor the people around him.

 

[Tubeless]

So, you have nothing factual to add to the discussion? Color me surprised.

I'm actually confident that the investigation will lead to charges and convictions against more than one person. Just not the person you're hoping for - nor the people around him.

Ok - who then?

 

[Berzin]

Ok - who then?

Eleven is playing the troll game.

Don't even bother engaging this nonsense. It's so stupid I doubt even he believes what he says.

 

[Tubeless]

Eleven is playing the troll game.

Don't even bother engaging this nonsense. It's so stupid I doubt even he believes what he says.

In related news, I heard from a friend yesterday that one of the US Postal team doctors has retained a high-powered attorney (whom my friend knows). This would be a logical step for the investigation - get the doctor(s) who ought to know to talk about what happened under oath.

Do we know the name(s) of the US Postal team doctor(s) who're from the US?

 

[Race Radio]

So, you have nothing factual to add to the discussion? Color me surprised.

I'm actually confident that the investigation will lead to charges and convictions against more than one person. Just not the person you're hoping for - nor the people around him.

Do you really believe that Landis is the only one to talk? Really? Do you think those 4 teammates who confirmed to the WSJ that there was organized doping on the team said something different to the GJ?

Keep the myth alive.

 

[Race Radio]

In related news, I heard from a friend yesterday that one of the US Postal team doctors has retained a high-powered attorney (whom my friend knows). This would be a logical step for the investigation - get the doctor(s) who ought to know to talk about what happened under oath.

Do we know the name(s) of the US Postal team doctor(s) who're from the US?

There are two, Prentice Stephen and a Chiropractor who calls himself a doctor Jeff Spencer.

Jeff Spencer was the guy caught dumping bags of PED's and Syringes in France in 2000. He was with the team for years. After Armstrong retired he sued Jeff and eventually settled.

After he heard that Landis was spilling the beans one of the first persons he reached out to was Jeff. Just had to see how his old friend was doing. Rumor has it Jeff testified in front of the GJ a couple weeks ago.

 

[Tubeless]

There are two, Prentice Stephen and a Chiropractor who calls himself a doctor Jeff Spencer.

Jeff Spencer was the guy caught dumping bags of PED's and Syringes in France in 2000. He was with the team for years. After Armstrong retired he sued Jeff and eventually settled.

After he heard that Landis was spilling the beans one of the first persons he reached out to was Jeff. Just had to see how his old friend was doing. Rumor has it Jeff testified in front of the GJ a couple weeks ago.

Sounds like the person in question is Jeff Spencer.

This other Dr is this guy (Prentice Steffen)? This story sounds funny, reading it with the benefit of hindsight...

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2005/oct05/steffenstatement

Background:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/08/road/old-doping-accusations-lead-to-altercation_82154

He's employed by Garmin Transiotions at the moment:

http://www.slipstreamsports.com/garmin-slipstream-staff/prentice-steffen-md

 

[mwbyrd]

Derukeman, I dont think federal investigators are worried about doping in cycling. What they are concerned about (& so should be every right minded US citizen) is US taxpayers dollars being given as corporate sponsorship to purchase illegally acquired narcotics or for illegal practises (importation/supply).

Well, how about looking at it this way. I don't like my tax payer dollars being used to bail out companies (GM, Citicorp, Bank of America, paying for a ten year old war). The govt's help with these companies had no affect on me. Or how about the Banks taking Tax Payer money and still forclosing on houses (255K in the third quarter alone). Yeah, the bailouts really helped the tax paying american. OR better yet, how about the North Carolina tax payers that are STILL waiting on their state tax returns. Maybe the money would be better spent on helping these citizins out. If the govt. can't pay back it's citizens for taking too much money out of their checks, the Govt. is effectively STEALING from the citizens. Who is the criminal now?

As far as I'm concerned, US Postal paid for a sponsorship and received Millions and Millions of dollars of advertising exposure. Whether Lance or anyone on his team doped, who cares. US Postal got what they wanted and received ZERO bad press during US Postal's run.

And all of this stuff happened in 2005 and before. It's history and should be treated as such. What is the govt. going to get out this? Nothing but a larger bill for the tax paying govt.

 

[Race Radio]

Public Strategies Talking Points

How large does Armstrong crime have to be for you to be OK with the Feds investigating it?

 

[Race Radio]

Sounds like the person in question is Jeff Spencer.

This other Dr is this guy (Prentice Steffen)? This story sounds funny, reading it with the benefit of hindsight...

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2005/oct05/steffenstatement

Background:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/08/road/old-doping-accusations-lead-to-altercation_82154

He's employed by Garmin Transiotions at the moment:

http://www.slipstreamsports.com/garmin-slipstream-staff/prentice-steffen-md

Yes, I would think it was Jeff. Prentice was fired from USPS as soon as Johann came on board because it was clear he would not run the right kind of program. Prentice is a cool guy. very quite, soft spoken. He was forced to issue that retraction, he did not even write it.

If you want a good example of the Omerta look to Marty Jemison. Marty sucker punched Prentice at the Tour of Utah two years ago because Prentice dared tell the truth about Marty pressuring him for drugs when he was on Postal.

 

[flicker]

How large does Armstrong crime have to be for you to be OK with the Feds investigating it?

I would say buy Novitsky and Armstrong matching jets, give each of the investIgators 500 grand each and call it a draw. That would be 1 100th what the witch hunt will cost JOHN Q. TAXPAYER.

 

[hektoren]

How large does Armstrong crime have to be for you to be OK with the Feds investigating it?

If it's Lance we're talking about? Jaywalking would qualify.

 

[Oldman]

Well, how about looking at it this way. I don't like my tax payer dollars being used to bail out companies (GM, Citicorp, Bank of America, paying for a ten year old war). The govt's help with these companies had no affect on me. Or how about the Banks taking Tax Payer money and still forclosing on houses (255K in the third quarter alone). Yeah, the bailouts really helped the tax paying american. OR better yet, how about the North Carolina tax payers that are STILL waiting on their state tax returns. Maybe the money would be better spent on helping these citizins out. If the govt. can't pay back it's citizens for taking too much money out of their checks, the Govt. is effectively STEALING from the citizens. Who is the criminal now?

As far as I'm concerned, US Postal paid for a sponsorship and received Millions and Millions of dollars of advertising exposure. Whether Lance or anyone on his team doped, who cares. US Postal got what they wanted and received ZERO bad press during US Postal's run.

And all of this stuff happened in 2005 and before. It's history and should be treated as such. What is the govt. going to get out this? Nothing but a larger bill for the tax paying govt.

Before I respond to this Eleven posted a response that could make sense if it weren't for the last part:

So, you have nothing factual to add to the discussion? Color me surprised.

I'm actually confident that the investigation will lead to charges and convictions against more than one person. Just not the person you're hoping for - nor the people around him.

Now as for your response and griping about the guvmint burning your hard earned dollars. I've paid taxes for along time and alot of them. I hate to see my money wasted and think you haven't a clue what Novitsky and Co are looking for.
It's about protecting the huge US Pharmaceutical industry, internet fraud and the underground economy. You may not like it but when you or a friend are choking on some "offshore" Viagra don't come whining to the same Government because they didn't protect you from yourself.

 

[NashbarShorts]

...After he heard that Landis was spilling the beans one of the first persons he reached out to was Jeff. Just had to see how his old friend was doing. Rumor has it Jeff testified in front of the GJ a couple weeks ago.

So RR, what you are saying is that Armstrong contacted Spencer, paid him off and got him lawyered up, and now Spencer has lied in front of the GJ??

Damn, that is very disappointing to hear.

 

[scribe]

So RR, what you are saying is that Armstrong contacted Spencer, paid him off and got him lawyered up, and now Spencer has lied in front of the GJ??

Damn, that is very disappointing to hear.

I think he was derisively commenting that Armstrong burnt that bridge, and it turned out he was standing on it whilst in flames.

 

[Race Radio]

So RR, what you are saying is that Armstrong contacted Spencer, paid him off and got him lawyered up, and now Spencer has lied in front of the GJ??

Damn, that is very disappointing to hear.

No. Not at all. Don't know what Jeff's position is, I only know he was one of the first people Armstrong reached out to. He was supposed to be at the Tour this year but I never saw him.