Was Bert pushed?

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May 31, 2011
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no what i'm saying is join the dots.

contador is attempting to win the tour even though he is likely to be stripped if he manages it.

a knock on effect of that is that teams will find it harder to get sponsorship and rider pay will be reduced.

a week into the tour we see an incident where a rider looks as if he has been thrown out the peloton. the angle he came out at plus the body movement of the rider next to him makes it look very much he was pushed.

and amazingly it just happens it is the rider that many people feel is putting the liveilhoods of riders at risk who flies out.

simoni was targeted in the peloton because he was putting riders jobs at risk. why couldn't it happen here?
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Franklin said:
Imagine that..

Ac: *Touches wrist* (could even be the Saxo in front), *swerves a bit*, *Hooks into bike*,* gets disentangled due to both riders pushing*
VK: *Feels pain in wrist*, *Looks aside*, *Feels someone meddling with his bike*, *shakes the guy of* *Swerves due to the disentanglement*

AC goes flying: two sides of the same story, still an accident.
Is this exactly how it happened, or are we making sh!t up again?
Franklin said:
And on the head ****... for real:
1. Nobody in the peloton mentions it, everyone accepts it :rolleyes:
2. From the video it's unclear if VK even hits AC with the headbutt. To many it looks like swerving when something gets untangled.

And #1 is the real clincher. AC surely screwed up, but it's not an assasination attempt by VK :rolleyes: Everything indicates it was a simple bike handling error by AC that caused this. It actually fits right in with an annoyed VK.
FWIW, I was never suggesting a headbutt specifically. Noone in the peloton mentions it, but that's noone out of say <10 that could have seen, not noone out of 160.
Franklin said:
For the "it can't be his saddle" crowd:

FFS.. did AC have time to consider what exactly happened except that suddenly he was stuck? It's extremely likely he wasn't paying attention in the first place. So if he gets stuck on the rear brake cable it's mighty close to the saddle(-stem). It's not an extreme stretch to say "I got stuck with my hoods at his saddle".
How hard is it to tell what your bars are doing? They're under your nose.
Franklin said:
For the "why didn't they all stop"

Noticed how little help people waiting are if you immediately get up? As long as you are within the cars waiting is pointless. I have seen quite a few times people waiting actually doing absolutely nothing but expend energy while desperately trying to overtake the victim who speeds buy at 60 behind the bumper of the DS. Keeping your domestiques fresh might be a better idea....
Don't know about usual practise in the peloton, but if your sole leader falls, don't you stop to help? What else are the non-climbers at Saxo there for?
 
May 26, 2009
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taiwan said:
Is this exactly how it happened, or are we making sh!t up again?
Considering my version matches what everyone involved says whereas yours is up there with the Kenedy conspiracies... So yes, I make up a lot less than you who is just making up stories as he sees fit. :cool:


FWIW, I was never suggesting a headbutt specifically. Noone in the peloton mentions it, but that's noone out of say <10 that could have seen, not noone out of 160.
Including his teammates :rolleyes:

Once again... who is making up stuff? It's undeniably you so what are you trying here?

How hard is it to tell what your bars are doing? They're under your nose.
You look at the rider in front of you, NOT at your bars. So if you are napping you might not see what happened, but feel that you are stuck *near the rear end of the rider in front of you*. By the time you are looking you might as well be flying.

Yes, these are a lot of mights, but they match the story... and they certainly fit the rule you do not watch your bars but in front of you.

Key of it is that it was AC's fault, which both fits AC's stance as VK's somewhat annoyed stance. There really is no need for conspiracy theories as this is a quite common cause for crashes... lack of concentration.

And no, AC doesn't suffer from bad skills. Nobody stays concentrated all the time (not even the Uniballer)... these things simply happen once in awhile.

Don't know about usual practise in the peloton, but if your sole leader falls, don't you stop to help?
Not unless he's in the caravan. Quite simply because it's nearly useless. As I said before, Cofidis waited for Taarmae... the result was Taarmae cruised back behind the DS car while his domestiques had to ride their lungs out to even get his wheel.

What else are the non-climbers at Saxo there for?
Pacing near the mountains? Finding good form? Getting bottles? almost everything is better than doing something useless.
 
T_S_A_R said:
i doubt bertie is very popular in the peloton just now.

if he wins then is stripped it will be a disaster for the sport and the end result will be less sponsorship which threatens riders' livelihoods.

it's the other side of the omerta coin. don't say anything but don't stupidly damage the sport, that's why all the riders hate ricco.
I don't think he's the leper that you'd like to make him out to be. I've read at least 3 quotes from prominent riders saying they think he's innocent and attesting to the respect he has among his peers.
 
T_S_A_R said:
no what i'm saying is join the dots.

contador is attempting to win the tour even though he is likely to be stripped if he manages it.

a knock on effect of that is that teams will find it harder to get sponsorship and rider pay will be reduced.

a week into the tour we see an incident where a rider looks as if he has been thrown out the peloton. the angle he came out at plus the body movement of the rider next to him makes it look very much he was pushed.

and amazingly it just happens it is the rider that many people feel is putting the liveilhoods of riders at risk who flies out.

simoni was targeted in the peloton because he was putting riders jobs at risk. why couldn't it happen here?
Gibo wouldn't have tolerated anyone "targeting" him. He'd likely find them individually and punch them all out, such was the surliness of this little climber. You obviously mean Simeoni and he was someone with little notoriety or "juice" in the sport, just a lowly domestique. The comparison is not a valid one.
 
May 31, 2011
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Angliru said:
I don't think he's the leper that you'd like to make him out to be. I've read at least 3 quotes from prominent riders saying they think he's innocent and attesting to the respect he has among his peers.
and you believe them? they are saying what is good for business.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Franklin said:
Considering my version matches what everyone involved says whereas yours is up there with the Kenedy conspiracies... So yes, I make up a lot less than you who is just making up stories as he sees fit. :cool:
Including his teammates :rolleyes:
Once again... who is making up stuff? It's undeniably you so what are you trying here?
I've said what my suspicion is and why. Quote where I've described a series of events which I didn't see.
Franklin said:
You look at the rider in front of you, NOT at your bars. So if you are napping you might not see what happened, but feel that you are stuck *near the rear end of the rider in front of you*. By the time you are looking you might as well be flying.
Yes, these are a lot of mights, but they match the story... and they certainly fit the rule you do not watch your bars but in front of you.
Key of it is that it was AC's fault, which both fits AC's stance as VK's somewhat annoyed stance. There really is no need for conspiracy theories as this is a quite common cause for crashes... lack of concentration.
And no, AC doesn't suffer from bad skills. Nobody stays concentrated all the time (not even the Uniballer)... these things simply happen once in awhile.
You can see your bars. If they get caught on something, you can look down without even moving your head. If they touch something, why would your bike fly off the road before you can even look, which seems to be what you're suggesting?
Franklin said:
Not unless he's in the caravan. Quite simply because it's nearly useless. As I said before, Cofidis waited for Taarmae... the result was Taarmae cruised back behind the DS car while his domestiques had to ride their lungs out to even get his wheel.
So you've cited a time when a team waited for it's leader. That's what I thought.
Franklin said:
Pacing near the mountains? Finding good form? Getting bottles? almost everything is better than doing something useless.
These are fine (well, finding form?), so is keeping the leader out of the wind, but I think it's pretty standard to also protect your leader in the bunch and pace him back up if he crashes.
 
May 26, 2009
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taiwan said:
I've said what my suspicion is and why. Quote where I've described a series of events which I didn't see.
Your whole suspicion is up there with the kenedy's, yet the report by the actual participants is supposedly false... You are amusing ;)

You can see your bars. If they get caught on something, you can look down without even moving your head. If they touch something, why would your bike fly off the road before you can even look, which seems to be what you're suggesting?
Considering how fast he was catapulted and how he was hanging on for dear life I'd say there is plenty of reason why he might not have had the time to cooly analize what happened :rolleyes:

Anecdotically: I have been in crashes where I really don't know what happened. I have shouted at others many many times *OY!* *EY!* *AY!*. I tend to think it was all an accident.. maybe you suggest my colleague racers were out to get me? :)

They were right as on occasion I was shouted at as well, usually because I was not paying attention or had to swerve for someone else.

A peloton can be like the sea... calm at one moment, wild moments later.

So you've cited a time when a team waited for it's leader. That's what I thought.These are fine (well, finding form?), so is keeping the leader out of the wind, but I think it's pretty standard to also protect your leader in the bunch and pace him back up if he crashes.
It is standard procedure... If he is behind the caravan. Otherwise it's really a hit and miss affair.

Do you even believe Riis would:

1. jeopardize a TdF win?
2. tolerate insubordination of his riders?

Probably AC said: 'I'll be fine, I can get back without help" which amazingly enough he managed to do just fine. :D

Once again it's a logic thing... the conspiracy behind his team not helping or him being pushed are a lot less likely than the obvious explanations. And in the case of his team not helping it makes pretty good sense.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Franklin said:
Your whole suspicion is up there with the kenedy's, yet the report by the actual participants is supposedly false... You are amusing ;)
I'm sticking to what has been said. You're taking what has been said and making up a scenario which fits with it. Unless you were there, STFU about how it might have happened and lets look at the media reports. I haven't even put forward a scenario of my own for the crash: show me. I've just pointed to the suspicious aspects of the reports.
Franklin said:
Considering how fast he was catapulted and how he was hanging on for dear life I'd say there is plenty of reason why he might not have had the time to cooly analize what happened :rolleyes:
That's exaggerating. From the video he rolls off the road and only falls over when he bumps into a spectator. The crash itself didn't seem major: he was back on the bike quickly.
Franklin said:
Anecdotically: I have been in crashes where I really don't know what happened. I have shouted at others many many times *OY!* *EY!* *AY!*. I tend to think it was all an accident.. maybe you suggest my colleague racers were out to get me? :)
They were right as on occasion I was shouted at as well, usually because I was not paying attention or had to swerve for someone else. A peloton can be like the sea... calm at one moment, wild moments later.
Sorry, are you talking about the crash in question? Otherwise 'storytime' isn't that much help. Patronising.
Franklin said:
It is standard procedure... If he is behind the caravan. Otherwise it's really a hit and miss affair.
Do you even believe Riis would:
1. jeopardize a TdF win?
2. tolerate insubordination of his riders?
Probably AC said: 'I'll be fine, I can get back without help" which amazingly enough he managed to do just fine. :D
Once again it's a logic thing... the conspiracy behind his team not helping or him being pushed are a lot less likely than the obvious explanations. And in the case of his team not helping it makes pretty good sense.
I wasn't speculating about why there were no domestiques there for him and I don't have an explanation - it wasn't the aspect I wanted to discuss really, I just found that odd. I'll maybe keep an eye out to see how many leaders on teams with noone else to ride for are left alone for 5 minutes after a crash, in or out of the cars. Also I'm not a philosopher, but I think logic deals in black and white, not the likelihood of one scenario over another in your own opinion. And did Contador actually say that or did you imagine it - again?
 
May 18, 2011
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I think that Katusha spiked Kolobnevs food, so they could get him to pay the fine to the team and use that to buy of saxo's domestiques for not helping Conti and buy of any rider who might have seen what clearly was a fullout push which was supposed to get the top tour contender out so Karpets can be 12th instead of 13th...
 
Mar 10, 2009
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YoRUsh said:
I think that Katusha spiked Kolobnevs food, so they could get him to pay the fine to the team and use that to buy of saxo's domestiques for not helping Conti and buy of any rider who might have seen what clearly was a fullout push which was supposed to get the top tour contender out so Karpets can be 12th instead of 13th...
Now that's plausible ;)
 
Mar 17, 2009
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T_S_A_R said:
simoni was targeted in the peloton because he was putting riders jobs at risk. why couldn't it happen here?
Simeoni was targeted by ONE rider who was in legal action with him at the time. The others were merely unsupportive.

If there was the slightest chance this was the result of malicious actions don't you think Riis would be screaming bloody murder?
 
May 26, 2009
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taiwan said:
I'm sticking to what has been said. You're taking what has been said and making up a scenario which fits with it. Unless you were there, STFU about how it might have happened and lets look at the media reports. I haven't even put forward a scenario of my own for the crash: show me. I've just pointed to the suspicious aspects of the reports.
Are you serious?

You: It's a conspiracy!
Others: No, no, the riders themselves say it's ok.
You: I don't buy it!
Me: Well, considering what they said, it really fits with a likely scenario, whereas conspiracy scenarios are really out there.
You: Stop making things up (that do not fit with the conspiracy line)

I post a likely scenario that is fits both what we see, what the riders said and what is rather common (napping riders). Sure it is extrapolation of current data, but it sure is less extrapolation than just repeating that it is suspicious, simply because it really isn't suspicious at all.

What you blatantly gloss over are the facts that:
- No rider came forward
- Riis doesn't come forward.

That's exaggerating. From the video he rolls off the road and only falls over when he bumps into a spectator. The crash itself didn't seem major: he was back on the bike quickly.
He is unclipped and hunched over his bars shooting out with at least 45 kph into a row of onlookers(speed of Peloton, conservatively estimated).

You REALLY think he has the time to analyze it right then and there? You are simply waving away anything that does not fit with your conspiracy.
Sorry, are you talking about the crash in question? Otherwise 'storytime' isn't that much help. Patronising.
Soooo... giving an example of real life similar occurences is invalid^^

Surely not because it doesn't fit with your threories? :rolleyes:

And patronising? WTF? I'm telling an anecdote.. that can be off topic, irrelevant, exaggerated. But patronising? Did you look in the mirror when you typed that? :D

I wasn't speculating about why there were no domestiques there for him and I don't have an explanation - it wasn't the aspect I wanted to discuss really, I just found that odd.
And I explained it. Which once again you refuse to accept as it doesn't fit your worldview.

I'll maybe keep an eye out to see how many leaders on teams with noone else to ride for are left alone for 5 minutes after a crash, in or out of the cars.
You do that. I'll give you one: Vladimir Karpetz. in one of the earlier stages. If you want to see a protected rider; look at Taaramae (and laugh how the domestiques have zero value).

Also I'm not a philosopher, but I think logic deals in black and white, not the likelihood of one scenario over another in your own opinion. And did Contador actually say that or did you imagine it - again?
You are funny. So if I hit a colleague, it's not logical that the onlooking colleagues act on me? It's not black and white, so surely it has nothing to do with logic :D

But hey, you go with the idea that Riis hates AC and sets up his team against him, or that Riis is the worst DS ever. If that works for you, go with it. :D
 
Jun 16, 2009
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taiwan said:
I'm sticking to what has been said. You're taking what has been said and making up a scenario which fits with it. Unless you were there, STFU about how it might have happened and lets look at the media reports. I haven't even put forward a scenario of my own for the crash: show me. I've just pointed to the suspicious aspects of the reports.
Wow, I mean - just - wow.

An entirely plausible explanation is put forward that matches up well with what the supposed victim, the supposed assailent, the boss of the supposed victim, and the witness all have said actually happened but thats not good enough for you because it doesn't match up with your conspiracy theories?

on what? semantics of one word here or there from people for whom English isn't even their second language?

What are your thoughts on the claim that the France 2/3 car was paid to hit Flecha to help a French rider win the stage?
(Notice that the car comes forward but pauses as TV rolls off the front and then it darts forward as Flecha is coming up) :D
 
On an world wide web that has provided some very strong competition over the years, this is, without doubt, the ****test thread I've ever read on a forum.

Some people really need to do something more useful with their free time.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Franklin said:
I post a likely scenario
Yes, how does that help when neither of us know what happened? I could construct a scenario to fit what I think too, but I don't
Franklin said:
Sure it is extrapolation of current data, but it sure is less extrapolation than just repeating that it is suspicious
Untrue. I'm not inventing occurances to fill in the unknown parts of the story, which would be extrapolation. I'm just judging and labelling the situation suspicious. Disagree with the judgement, but don't say I'm presenting events which we don't know to have happened.
Franklin said:
What you blatantly gloss over are the facts that:
- No rider came forward
- Riis doesn't come forward.
Noted.
Franklin said:
He is unclipped and hunched over his bars shooting out with at least 45 kph into a row of onlookers(speed of Peloton, conservatively estimated).
which is toned down from "he was catapulted and he was hanging on for dear life".
Franklin said:
You REALLY think he has the time to analyze it right then and there? You are simply waving away anything that does not fit with your conspiracy.
Franklin said:
Imagine that..
Ac: *Touches wrist* (could even be the Saxo in front), *swerves a bit*, *Hooks into bike*,* gets disentangled due to both riders pushing*
VK: *Feels pain in wrist*, *Looks aside*, *Feels someone meddling with his bike*, *shakes the guy of* *Swerves due to the disentanglement*
Even if as in your imagined scenario he catches his bars and then disengages hes got time to notice (not analyse) what he got caught on, yes.
Franklin said:
Soooo... giving an example of real life similar occurences is invalid^^
Surely not because it doesn't fit with your threories? :rolleyes:
And patronising? WTF? I'm telling an anecdote.. that can be off topic, irrelevant, exaggerated. But patronising? Did you look in the mirror when you typed that? :D
Yes. No. Yes. No. Yes. No.
Franklin said:
And I explained it. Which once again you refuse to accept as it doesn't fit your worldview...
You do that. I'll give you one: Vladimir Karpetz. in one of the earlier stages. If you want to see a protected rider; look at Taaramae (and laugh how the domestiques have zero value).
Am I likely to accept your handy explanation off the bat? I'll verify it myself, thanks. Karpets importance in Katusha does not equal Bert's in Saxo Bank anyhow, if he was left to chase back alone as you say.
Franklin said:
You are funny. So if I hit a colleague, it's not logical that the onlooking colleagues act on me? It's not black and white, so surely it has nothing to do with logic :D But hey, you go with the idea that Riis hates AC and sets up his team against him, or that Riis is the worst DS ever. If that works for you, go with it. :D
As I said I'm not a philosopher and I get the impression that you aren't either, so let's not use words like "logic". I think in this instance you mean "reasonable". For the record I never said any of those things about Riis. But I am "going with it", if you're finished.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Martin318is said:
An entirely plausible explanation is put forward that matches up well with what the supposed victim, the supposed assailent, the boss of the supposed victim, and the witness all have said actually happened but thats not good enough for you because it doesn't match up with your conspiracy theories?
on what? semantics of one word here or there from people for whom English isn't even their second language?
Karpets first statement is not Bert/Riis/Karpets later statement is not quite possible. And I don't think Riis' english is that weak.
 
May 26, 2009
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taiwan said:
. But I am "going with it", if you're finished.
I advise you to ask the mods to change your first post into: Bert was pushed!

Have a very good TdF, but watch out for the guy across the street, I really think he's out to get you. :cool:
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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It's true Bert was pushed - my secret sources tell me that the order to take out Contador came from ................ Pat McQuaid.

Someone overheard him saying "I want this Contador business pushed under the carpet".
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
It's true Bert was pushed - my secret sources tell me that the order to take out Contador came from ................ Pat McQuaid.

Someone overheard him saying "I want this Contador business pushed under the carpet".
Ran that through a translator into Russian, and then back into English. This what it came up with:

"I want to give the business of pushing Contador under to the Karpet"

Maybe Taiwan's not so crazy after all...
 
May 14, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
It's true Bert was pushed - my secret sources tell me that the order to take out Contador came from ................ Pat McQuaid.

Someone overheard him saying "I want this Contador business pushed under the carpet".
Now that's funny. :D
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Dr. Maserati said:
It's true Bert was pushed - my secret sources tell me that the order to take out Contador came from ................ Pat McQuaid.

Someone overheard him saying "I want this Contador business pushed under the carpet".
JMBeaushrimp said:
Ran that through a translator into Russian, and then back into English. This what it came up with:

"I want to give the business of pushing Contador under to the Karpet"

Maybe Taiwan's not so crazy after all...
very funny.
 

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