wasted talents

[ak-zaaf]

Oh man, for some reason I thought that was JF Bernard! That will teach me for not double checking my memory with actually looking at old photos!! My apologies all

np, i just thought you had a really f*cked up way of showing you don't like l'equipe

 

[Angliru]

Sylvain Chavanel?
Maybe excluding this last tour he has always rode his heart out, no way is he a wasted talent. And to be fair I never heard anyone claiming he was the next best thing, if anything Chavenel has exceeded expectations.

If I recall Chavanel was pointed in the wrong direction early in his career as a grand tour GC contender. After several years he finally found his niche and it definitely wasn't as a GC rider. It was shocking to most that he began excelling in the hard men classics. Seems he wasted away half of his career chasing the misbegotten dreams of his Cofidis and Bouygues Telecom (sp?) management. For that reason I wouldn't categorize him as a failure more so of a late bloomer that is still likely to reach even higher heights.

 

[Carl0880]

If I recall Chavanel was pointed in the wrong direction early in his career as a grand tour GC contender. After several years he finally found his niche and it definitely wasn't as a GC rider. It was shocking to most that he began excelling in the hard men classics. Seems he wasted away half of his career chasing the misbegotten dreams of his Cofidis and Bouygues Telecom (sp?) management. For that reason I wouldn't categorize him as a failure more so of a late bloomer that is still likely to reach even higher heights.

I Think this has been the curse of many French riders. Everyone wants the next French winner of the Tour and take many good riders and turn them into that Grand Tour Contender which they are not.

I think Virenque was one of the few that realized this quick enough. HE could compete for the yellow jersey, but he was better suited for the mountains so that became his main goal over his career.

 

[dienekes88]

I've never completely bought that whole thing about Ullrich's superhuman talent. For sure winning a Tour at age 23 is impressive but that wasn't the strongest field that year. When the biggest obstacle to winning the Tour is beating Ricky Virenque, life is pretty sweet. Armstrong constantly billed Ullrich as being more talented but there are pretty obvious competitive/mind game reasons for saying that.

You have to remember that Ricky Virenque was "charged" and not just a little bit so.

http://magliarosa.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/climbing_rate.jpg

On Alpe d'Huez, Ullrich in '97 was almost a match for Armstrong's TT ascent in 2004. Beyond that, his TT at the end of the '96 Tour was unbelievable.

I wish there were a catalog of all the VAMs of the really big performances... including Ullrich '97 Arcalis.

 

[dienekes88]

Yeah, still remember the guy climbing at 30-50 rpm for hours and hours. I remember that next year (99) guy was riding in the autobus (heck he almost won the lanter rouge that year after finishing 4th in 98) when a spectator called him a doper or something, guy was ****ed and he chased the spectator up a col.

My choices:

-Hincapie..what a waste of one day race talent
-Ulrich: he never ever reached his 97 form

He was a monster talent, as I mention in a different post, but he did do other things... 2x World TT Champ, 1x Vuelta, 2x Tour de Suisse, Olympic Gold in the RR, Olympic Silver in the TT, Hew Cyclassics... Nothing to sneeze at but definitely not the cannibal everyone thought he would become.

-Armstrong: TDF and thats it..he could have done 5 Tours and something else..

Well, there were a couple Dauphines in there, Tour de Suisse, World Road Championship, Clasica San Sebastian, Fleche Wallonne, 4th in the '98 Vuelta, 4 or 5 podiums at Amstel and LBL... I think the Tour Du Pont used to be considered more important too.

-Petrov
-Pantani: If only the doctor could have tuned him up to a 49.9% hc instead of 50.1% chances are he would still be alive (before you start flaming rememember this thread is if could have should have would have silliness)
-Hamilton
-Heras

3 Vueltas (+ 1 Vuelta win removed) ain't enough?

-Perez Cuapio
-Rujano
-VDB
-Boonen

Eh... Boonen's career ain't over yet. I think he let the fame get to his head. Hopefully this year is a wake up call. Either that or something happened that we don't know about...

-Mercado
-Beloki
-Scanlon
-Thorsten Hieckmann: Junior world champ IIRC
-Alexei Markov: 4:25 pursuit rider at age 17..4th place in Atlanta 96, mot much after that

 

[No_Balls]

WTF - happened 1: Jan Ullrich. Even though some huge shadows hangs over Telekom from 1996 (Zabel won everything in sight, Mr 60%, Bölts somehow were transformed into a climber) and i dont think this man from Rostock wasnt a part of it, you sense that he didn´t lived up to the expectations that arised after Le Tour -97. In my book, as far as his invincibility concern, he lost that when he bonked big time at Les Deux Alpes in 1998. That was too early in his career and damaged the picture of Ullrich that we painted.

After that, and i admit it, he lost me. I would rather expecting him to falter then the opposite. So much does a mountain stage for your image. I like Ullrich though, but after -98 i didn´t anymore believed in him doing what i first thought when i saw him: winning 10 Tours. I should also add that a certain suspicious american spoiled Ze Party for the germans.


WTF - happened 2: Evgenij Berzin: Pretend that you are a young russian with little to none experience of Grand Tours and you are giving Miguel Indurain and Marco Pantani a run for their money, which ends up with the final Maglia Rosa in what is a damn hard Giro back in 1994. A few years later you are the laughing stock of the whole Peloton with the book-makers predicting when you is going to falter rather then if. Wouldn´t you ask yourself of being at this list? Sure you´ll do.

Abraham Olano. I don´t think we got out the best of this guy. Yet he seemed like the guy who always had his little hiccup in the mountains. I wasn´t surprised when the guy flew past Ullrich at the god damn Angliru for the first time in La Vuelta 1999 defending his yellow shirt, because that was how good Olano could be on his day. Nor was i surprised when he lost like 10 minutes the day after. This is the kind of guy who could have much more lenght of his Palmarés then he actually has (which is awesome in its own ways).

Richard Virenque. If you have seven mountains jersey under your belt but a chance of winning Le Tour come second to none depending to you´r lacking a strategic sense then i seriously don´t know if he is fitting in this list. Richard Virenque would always please the french housewiwes with making spectacular moves instead of winning dito, but the guy had talent and a sadly reminder of when this is used in a "wrong" way.

Laurent Jalabert. Ok, before the flame wars begin i would say this is only for Le Tour. If any french guy could have won this, it was Jaja. If he had concentrated at it and built the season around it. This was however not his cup of tea since Jaja were an allrounder (and i love him for that). But the french public realised this and turned his back leaning more towards Virenque mostly because Virenque...well, he had the looks and did some spectacular moves.

Santiago Blanco. Once a successor to Indurain. Now even hard to google the name (you´ll end up at Facebook if you try).

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

My apologies all

Ugh. I probably should have not been so smarmy and just put his name up there under the photo.

The other guy I posted a picture of was Bob Cook. Great American talent who won the Mt. Evans hill climb year after year, and many other races until getting cancer and dying at the age of 23, right as he was about to head to Europe with Lemond.

The Mt. Evans race is now named after him.

Joe has some real inside names there. Interesting reading.

 

[Nick C.]

Did Jaja crack on the Les Arcs stage in 96 which pretty much ended matters for him as a TDF contender?

 

[No_Balls]

Did Jaja crack on the Les Arcs stage in 96 which pretty much ended matters for him as a TDF contender?

Pretty much. He lost 13 minutes that god-forgiving stage (dropped already at Col de La Madeleine the first climb of the Tour) which saw the Hog in a ravine, Zülle chrash two times, Indurain suffer. Epic stage. He abandoned two stages later.

One year before he was virtually MJ during the stage to Mende.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

That's still one of the most dramatic days of cycling I've ever seen. The weather went from hot, to treacherous, to wet, to breezy, to decent by the end of that long, brutal day.

In the previous Tours Indurain had used a "USPS train" technique with his team taking him to 5km or so from the finish and launching him. But with the long day, the weather, and the advent of rampant EPO use, there was attack after attack, and eventually Indurain was isolated with some 12km to go when first Rominger attacked to try seriously to break him, then LeBlanc went, and lndurain wouldn't chase. Then Rominger again, Riis with Ullrich in tow, Virenque, Berzin, Dufaux. The pressure was put on, and they dropped him. I never thought I'd see it, but Induran was done. When he crossed the finish line he was minutes back, and rode straight to the team car and looked completely, totally finished. That was the end of his career. In one dramatic day, it was over.

 

[No_Balls]

That's still one of the most dramatic days of cycling I've ever seen. The weather went from hot, to treacherous, to wet, to breezy, to decent by the end of that long, brutal day.

In the previous Tours Indurain had used a "USPS train" technique with his team taking him to 5km or so from the finish and launching him. But with the long day, the weather, and the advent of rampant EPO use, there was attack after attack, and eventually Indurain was isolated with some 12km to go when first Rominger attacked to try seriously to break him, then LeBlanc went, and lndurain wouldn't chase. Then Rominger again, Riis with Ullrich in tow, Virenque, Berzin, Dufaux. The pressure was put on, and they dropped him. I never thought I'd see it, but Induran was done. When he crossed the finish line he was minutes back, and rode straight to the team car and looked completely, totally finished. That was the end of his career. In one dramatic day, it was over.

You summed it up great. If anything sticks in my memory, this was the day.

However, Indurain were dropped before Romingers attack thanks to Aitor Garmendias furious pace, team mate to Zülle who even he bonked. LeBlanc and Dufaux attacked earlier. Banesto was really weak during that Tour and Indurain had only Chava (R.I.P) with him over Cormet de Roseland, the last climb before the finish at Les Arcs. Add to the fact that this happened only within 3 kilometers from the finish.

It is always epic when one day (or stage) could be looked upon as an end of a career. Makes mythical proportions. Too young to have seen this happened to other great cyclists, never saw it happen with Armstrong. So this is a dramatic stage for me.

Here is a clip from the final events of this dramatic stage. There are five clips avaible from this day so if you are searching at this site you´ll find the other four, with start from the bottom of the last climb before the uphill-finish.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2o3wx_tdf-1996-chamberyles-arcs-55_sport

 

[Steampunk]

Building on the earlier discussion of the French establishing impossible expectations for homegrown talent, two names I hope we don't add to this list in the future:

Maxime Bouet
Brice Feillu

Both young riders with a lot of potential.

 

[indurain666]

You summed it up great. If anything sticks in my memory, this was the day.

However, Indurain were dropped before Romingers attack thanks to Aitor Garmendias furious pace, team mate to Zülle who even he bonked. LeBlanc and Dufaux attacked earlier. Banesto was really weak during that Tour and Indurain had only Chava (R.I.P) with him over Cormet de Roseland, the last climb before the finish at Les Arcs. Add to the fact that this happened only within 3 kilometers from the finish.

It is always epic when one day (or stage) could be looked upon as an end of a career. Makes mythical proportions. Too young to have seen this happened to other great cyclists, never saw it happen with Armstrong. So this is a dramatic stage for me.

Here is a clip from the final events of this dramatic stage. There are five clips avaible from this day so if you are searching at this site you´ll find the other four, with start from the bottom of the last climb before the uphill-finish.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2o3wx_tdf-1996-chamberyles-arcs-55_sport

As an Indurain fan, I really hated that day, but I can't forget it either. Extremely wet and cold first week..really strange Tour..

 

[indurain666]

You have to remember that Ricky Virenque was "charged" and not just a little bit so.

http://magliarosa.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/climbing_rate.jpg

On Alpe d'Huez, Ullrich in '97 was almost a match for Armstrong's TT ascent in 2004. Beyond that, his TT at the end of the '96 Tour was unbelievable.

I wish there were a catalog of all the VAMs of the really big performances... including Ullrich '97 Arcalis.

IMO his performance was better than Armstrongs:

1) Climbed at the end of a 200 km stage (not big mountains though)

2) His time was measured at 14.5 instead of Lance's 37:04 over 13.8 kilometres.

I agree with you, would love to see VAMs, its a shame people don't keep track of ascent times over the years (only ventoux and alpe)

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

You summed it up great. If anything sticks in my memory, this was the day.

However, Indurain were dropped before Romingers attack...[/url]

Thanks for the link, and corrections NoBalls. I was going on memory, and remembered Mig being isolated when Rominger tried to attack. I just guessed in piecing the events together. I do know though that what happened to Mig that day I got correct. It was a very brutal day, the route, the weather, the constant attacks, and very dramatic the way he lost.

Here is a link to all five clips, if anyone wants to watch. Not very high quality, but worth watching for historical reference.

The day reminded me in an ironic way, if when Lemond cracked on the road to Val Loran in 1991. Link to Tour summary in English here. And here's a link to the Val Loran stage in Spanish.

We'll see Lance completely crack next year in similar style.

 

[joe_papp]

Ugh. I probably should have not been so smarmy and just put his name up there under the photo.

The other guy I posted a picture of was Bob Cook. Great American talent who won the Mt. Evans hill climb year after year, and many other races until getting cancer and dying at the age of 23, right as he was about to head to Europe with Lemond.

The Mt. Evans race is now named after him.

Joe has some real inside names there. Interesting reading.

Thanks man, but props to you for bringing Bob Cook back to life for a bit. Before my time, at least with respect to actual race experience, but someone who I read about a lot and respected.

Paul Abrahams is another possible wasted talent. I'll never forget the crash I saw him take in the crit during junior nationals one year. He was trying to bridge to the break in the 17-18 race and just shredded himself. I believe he had a dark skin complexion, so when he stood up after the fall, the road rash was this icky white/pink. What ever happened to him... And the kid who qualified for the Olympics in 1992 instead of Chann McRae? Was it Tim Peddie?

Just thought of another waste of talent: Robbie Dapice. He won Junior Nationals in 1995 in Texas but along the way suffered a heatstroke that fried his brain. He was never the same rider again after that...

 

[speedyT]

Gilles Delion quit the sport when his director told him that he had to jump on the program to compete. However, another tremendous talent was Jeff Evanshine.

 

[Oldman]

there have been a lot of riders who made a very promising start, but got lost along the way for various reasons.

the obvious names are riviere, ullrich, vandenbroucke... maybe berzin


what riders do you think could have gotten a massive palmares if it didn't go wrong somewhere down the line?

There was a guy picked for the US Olympic team to serve LA for the Atlanta games. He was a amateur/neo pro for Motorola and did this: 2nd/US Natz TT, 4th in debut US Pro RR while defending for LA, in one of his first pro races in Europe (parcours went near Mont St. Michelle and was Lemond's first pro win) got in a long break with 3 other riders including Udo Bolts and Jan Ullrich. That race finished in a town circuit with the escapees having under a minute lead. Predictably the pro peloton turned up the heat and brought 3 of the riders back, including Ullrich. The remaining guy put time into the field and won.
He was under contract to Motorola went it imploded and had few options but race in Europe under a European team, complete with the protocols that came with that commitment. Anyone remember his name?

 

[ferryman]

For what it is worth in my world, Robert Millar, Olanao and J F Bernard. Each one with the same lack of confidence in the talent that they had.

 

[Race Radio]

There was a guy picked for the US Olympic team to serve LA for the Atlanta games. He was a amateur/neo pro for Motorola and did this: 2nd/US Natz TT, 4th in debut US Pro RR while defending for LA, in one of his first pro races in Europe (parcours went near Mont St. Michelle and was Lemond's first pro win) got in a long break with 3 other riders including Udo Bolts and Jan Ullrich. That race finished in a town circuit with the escapees having under a minute lead. Predictably the pro peloton turned up the heat and brought 3 of the riders back, including Ullrich. The remaining guy put time into the field and won.
He was under contract to Motorola went it imploded and had few options but race in Europe under a European team, complete with the protocols that came with that commitment. Anyone remember his name?

......Chopper?

 

[hfer07]

I'm going to throw two names:

-Andreas Kloden
-Bobby Jullich

 

[Oldman]

......Chopper?

Yes. Best pure wattage output possible-clean. He could live on roadkill and tequila. He also knew a little about integrity and the value of a good home life. When the discussion is of Levi, LA and some other 'muricans it is not in the same vein. Total class.

 

[Oldman]

......Chopper?

PS: he's generally an intelligent, happy individual. The Talent wasn't wasted, just reapplied. The sarcasm muscle is more developed, I'd expect.

 

[issoisso]

My turn to post one, I guess.

This one boggles the mind. It's been my pet peeve for years. What happened to this guy?

Imagine a guy shows up at the junior worlds and rides both the TT and the road race.
Imagine he's the strongest in the road race and only just loses a two-up sprint against Cunego. Then he narrowly places second in the TT behind Cancellara.

Imagine he has no other results. Ever. I cannot find the slightest trace of this guy before or after that other than a brief glimpse of his name in the startlist for the 2002 Giro delle Regioni.

Ruslan Kaimoumov

 

[issoisso]

My turn to post one, I guess.

This one boggles the mind. It's been my pet peeve for years. What happened to this guy?

Imagine a guy shows up at the junior worlds and rides both the TT and the road race.
Imagine he's the strongest in the road race, drops everyone except Cunego who leeches off his wheel, puts a minute into the pack with no help from anyone, and only just loses the road race to Cunego who dropped him on the technical downhill (Cunego was racing "at home". he knew the downhill.). In the TT he was second behind Cancellara.

Imagine he has no other results. Ever. I cannot find the slightest trace of this guy before or after that, other than a brief glimpse of his name in the startlist for the 2002 Giro delle Regioni.

Ruslan Kaimoumov