Were the 80s any cleaner than whenever?

[Big Doopie]

Team orders must have played a part. Lemond's position was as Fignon's lieutenant, so he'd have been unable to ride for himself alone.

lemond was also sick for most of that tour -- lost a lot of minutes in the second week (MTT, etc...). He came on stronger in the third week.

 

[ChrisE]

The 90's onward doping program was a combination of PED's. It wasn't just EPO, just like it isn't just oxygen vector drugs or blood doping today.

I would bet if EPO came before steroids we would be talking about how steroids changed the game.

 

[Hugh Januss]

The 90's onward doping program was a combination of PED's. It wasn't just EPO, just like it isn't just oxygen vector drugs or blood doping today.

I would bet if EPO came before steroids we would be talking about how steroids changed the game.

And I would take that bet, yes the other PEDs help but the game changer was EPO and blood boosting drugs and techniques. Nothing else has made nearly as much difference, end of story.

 

[Polish]

And I would take that bet, yes the other PEDs help but the game changer was EPO and blood boosting drugs and techniques. Nothing else has made nearly as much difference, end of story.

And of course you have no data to back up your hyperbole.

No data of any "Game Changer"
No data of any "End of Story"

 

[Big Doopie]

And of course you have no data to back up your hyperbole.

um...actually there is tons and tons of detailed accounts and studies that have been discussed ad nauseum.

however, there is little -- if any -- data to show that steroids in cycling would make anywhere close to the difference blood doping can achieve. By all indications there is no comparison. and due to the complete lack of evidence supporting his statement, it is actually up to ChrisE to show data -- otherwise he is just pi$$ing in the wind trying to create a web forum thunderstorm.

 

[Hugh Januss]

And of course you have no data to back up your hyperbole.

No data of any "Game Changer"
No data of any "End of Story"

And of course you are talking out of your............

 

[Velodude]

And I would take that bet, yes the other PEDs help but the game changer was EPO and blood boosting drugs and techniques. Nothing else has made nearly as much difference, end of story.

Willy Voet, 1998 Festina soigneur and part time team pharmacy transporter, said that the pre EPO drugs (steroids, amphetamines, etc) made the best out of a rider. EPO made a new rider.

Before writing his book ("Breaking the Chain" (2001)) Voet publicly claimed you could not win the TdF without resorting to drugs.

Response from L.E. Armstrong (née Gunderson) to the effect: "If he writes about me I will sue him"

 

[Polish]

Willy Voet, 1998 Festina soigneur and part time team pharmacy transporter, said that the pre EPO drugs (steroids, amphetamines, etc) made the best out of a rider. EPO made a new rider.
"

I would argue that EPO, like steroids, amphetamines, ether, etc -do NOT make a new rider either.

Maybe when Gene Doping comes into play decades or more from now, we can begin to talk about "making new riders" and the "game changing".

And even then that will not be the "end of story"

Same as it ever was, same as it ever was.
Same as it ever was, SAME AS IT EVER WAS.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I would argue that EPO, like steroids, amphetamines, ether, etc -do NOT make a new rider either.

Maybe when Gene Doping comes into play decades or more from now, we can begin to talk about "making new riders" and the "game changing".

And even then that will not be the "end of story"

Same as it ever was, same as it ever was.
Same as it ever was, SAME AS IT EVER WAS.

Yes but you would continue arguing long after everyone else had agreed that water is wet.

 

[Velodude]

I would argue that EPO, like steroids, amphetamines, ether, etc -do NOT make a new rider either.

Maybe when Gene Doping comes into play decades or more from now, we can begin to talk about "making new riders" and the "game changing".

And even then that will not be the "end of story"

Same as it ever was, same as it ever was.
Same as it ever was, SAME AS IT EVER WAS.

Polish, your infatuation of the man really muddies your waters.

A man who admits to being part of the doping culture for 30 years as an administerer and renounces the omerta by cleansing himself with his confession has a more credible opinion than a LA fanboy/girl like yourself.

In a radio interview David Walsh had this to say about Voet's comparative opinion on the blood boosting drugs:

http://competitorradio.competitor.com/?powerpress_pinw=149-podcast

Transcription

"And Willy Voet, the driver of that Festina car that was found with a cargo of drugs basically, by his own admission, had been doping riders for about 30 years.

Willy said the old drugs, like cortisone, that had been used in (Sean) Kelly's time what they did was to allow the man to achieve the best of himself.

Then he said the blood boosting drugs came along and they created a new man and that difference was significant."

 

[Polish]

Polish, your infatuation of the man really muddies your waters.

A man who admits to being part of the doping culture for 30 years as an administerer and renounces the omerta by cleansing himself with his confession has a more credible opinion than a LA fanboy/girl like yourself.

In a radio interview David Walsh had this to say about Voet's comparative opinion on the blood boosting drugs:

Oh, this is a "Lance" thing.
I thought we were talking about doping in the 80's versus other times.
You know Velodude, I think you may have too much Lance on the brain

But now that you mention Lance, I think you may find it interesting that Lance's career spanned the EPO Era and the Post-EPO Era.

From 1999 to 2005....
Before EPO (1999-2001) and after EPO (2002-2005)
Won with EPO. Won without.
One Two Three Four Five Six Seven TdF's in a Row.

Guess what? EPO did not make a difference.
Did not miss a beat.
Won with EPO. Won without.
Can you even tell the difference?
Did the "game change"?
Nope and nope.

"Oh, but EPO changes a rider waawaa"
The facts and the data prove the opposite.
Lance is a great case study.
One Two Three Four Five Six Seven.

 

[Velodude]

Oh, this is a "Lance" thing.
I thought we were talking about doping in the 80's versus other times.
You know Velodude, I think you may have too much Lance on the brain

But now that you mention Lance, I think you may find it interesting that Lance's career spanned the EPO Era and the Post-EPO Era.

From 1999 to 2005....
Before EPO (1999-2001) and after EPO (2002-2005)
Won with EPO. Won without.
One Two Three Four Five Six Seven TdF's in a Row.

Guess what? EPO did not make a difference.
Did not miss a beat.
Won with EPO. Won without.
Can you even tell the difference?
Did the "game change"?
Nope and nope.

"Oh, but EPO changes a rider waawaa"
The facts and the data prove the opposite.
Lance is a great case study.
One Two Three Four Five Six Seven.

Polish, you are still using the wrong (Julian or Gregorian) Calendar.

EPO was FDA approved in 1988. It hit the peloton circa 1990. IOC placed it on the banned list (without a test) in 1990.

Lancie tried to introduce it as a team groupie drug into the Motorola team in 1995 (per Stephen Swart).

UCI introduced the 50% hct health test in about 1996 to be seen to combat EPO.

Lancie won his first TdF in 1999 (in record race time) when EPO was rampant in the peloton (refer to LA's 1999 failed B sample scientific tests in 2005).

Lancie allegedly failed an EPO test in the Tour de Suisse 2001. UCI became enriched as a result of that failed test

PS: The EPO era covered Lance's TdF failures 1993-1996, successes 1999-2005 and his cycling for cancer 2009-2010. EPO is still being used after the urine and blood tests were introduced as an undetectable ancillary and adjuster to autologous blood extraction and infusion doping.

 

[ChrisE]

um...actually there is tons and tons of detailed accounts and studies that have been discussed ad nauseum.

however, there is little -- if any -- data to show that steroids in cycling would make anywhere close to the difference blood doping can achieve. By all indications there is no comparison. and due to the complete lack of evidence supporting his statement, it is actually up to ChrisE to show data -- otherwise he is just pi$$ing in the wind trying to create a web forum thunderstorm.

Cool. I have done google searches such as "controlled test steroids EPO endurance sports" and the like, and can't seem to find any of these "detailed accounts and studies" you speak of. I use google; maybe you have a new search engine that creates things for you instead of you having to pull BS out of your rectom. I know this swats at one of the sacred cows in here, of which discussions I have had have led to my banning, so I will stop here until you set me straight with factual data instead of what Greg Lemond says or what explains LA's rise from pack fodder. I do look forward to evidence supporting your statement. Good luck.

My point is, and maybe I should have used "IMO" instead of "I bet" so you wouldn't bring up the strawman of "detailed accounts" (fyi that does not include what race radio says), is that since no such study exists and since EPO was used on top of the other drugs that were already in use, it is impossible to be certainly sure of either my opinion or yours. Maybe EPO, by itself, is not a game changer. That is impossible to tell unless you come up with the goods you claim exists.

You know, if I drink set out to drink an 18 pack, around beer 17 or so I start to get farked up. Now, is that because of the 16 I drank before it accumulating or was the 17th the "game changer" that made me drunk?

 

[Velodude]

Cool. I have done google searches such as "controlled test steroids EPO endurance sports" and the like, and can't seem to find any of these "detailed accounts and studies" you speak of. I use google; maybe you have a new search engine that creates things for you instead of you having to pull BS out of your rectom. I know this swats at one of the sacred cows in here, of which discussions I have had have led to my banning, so I will stop here until you set me straight with factual data instead of what Greg Lemond says or what explains LA's rise from pack fodder. I do look forward to evidence supporting your statement. Good luck.

My point is, and maybe I should have used "IMO" instead of "I bet" so you wouldn't bring up the strawman of "detailed accounts" (fyi that does not include what race radio says), is that since no such study exists and since EPO was used on top of the other drugs that were already in use, it is impossible to be certainly sure of either my opinion or yours. Maybe EPO, by itself, is not a game changer. That is impossible to tell unless you come up with the goods you claim exists.

You know, if I drink set out to drink an 18 pack, around beer 17 or so I start to get farked up. Now, is that because of the 16 I drank before it accumulating or was the 17th the "game changer" that made me drunk?

Appears to be a lot of study papers on Google Scholar

 

[ChrisE]

Appears to be a lot of study papers on Google Scholar

Sorry velodude I searched but I cannot find a controlled experiment concerning EPO vs steroids or other PEDs, or some study showing effects of interaction of many PEDs.

 

[Velodude]

Sorry velodude I searched but I cannot find a controlled experiment concerning EPO vs steroids or other PEDs, or some study showing effects of interaction of many PEDs.

I would consider a diligent search of Google Scholar with this search string(or Pub Med) should turn up an informed opinion that blood hct boosting drugs trump pre 1990 doping drugs of choice.

Problem is there is usually a registration cost and it is not my argument,

 

[ChrisE]

I would consider a diligent search of Google Scholar with this search string(or Pub Med) should turn up an informed opinion that blood hct boosting drugs trump pre 1990 doping drugs of choice.

Problem is there is usually a registration cost and it is not my argument,

How are those opinions "informed" without testing data? They are not, so they are just opinions.

 

[Big Doopie]

Cool. I have done google searches such as "controlled test steroids EPO endurance sports" and the like, and can't seem to find any of these "detailed accounts and studies" you speak of.

lol.

how willfully ignorant do you have to be. but knowing your m.o., it is obvious that you chose to misinterpret. chrisE as ever wanting desperately to be controversial and say something that no one else says...yawn.

the accounts and studies of the huge advantage of epo (without steroids) are numerous and have been discussed here ad nauseum. there is a study that shows epo benefits 15%-25% increase in power (what we have seen 1990s-2000s) and a 50% increase in "time to exhaustion" (which would be the big one for three week tours that used to be decided by the rider who could recover best in the third week). then there are the numerous personal accounts of its benefits.

while i do not doubt that steroids helps, there is zero evidence that on its own it has anywhere near the effect of blood doping.

sorry to burst your intended bubble of controversy.

i rarely respond to your silliness, chrisE, because it is always so clearly an attempt to flame. consider this my last response to you on this matter as you return to the land of "ignore".

 

[rata de sentina]

Sorry velodude I searched but I cannot find a controlled experiment concerning EPO vs steroids or other PEDs, or some study showing effects of interaction of many PEDs.

That's because people don't make a habit of comparing apples and oranges in scientific studies. There are plenty of studies showing the nature of the performance benefits of steroids similarly there are plenty of studies showing the nature of the performance benefits of epo. You have been around the clinic for long enough to know this and so the logical conclusion is that you've reverted to type.

 

[Polish]

lol.

the accounts and studies of the huge advantage of epo (without steroids) are numerous and have been discussed here ad nauseum. there is a study that shows epo benefits 15%-25% increase in power (what we have seen 1990s-2000s) and a 50% increase in "time to exhaustion" (which would be the big one for three week tours that used to be decided by the rider who could recover best in the third week). then there are the numerous personal accounts of its benefits.
".

"15%-25% increase in power" compared to what?

Certainly not compared to a roided up MMA Fighter on crank.....
Certainly not compared to an HGH'd and roided Rugby player.....

And the 15-25% increase in power did not help others when it came to beating Lance.
Lance crushed dozens and dozens and dozens of riders on EPO.
BTW, the data seems to indicate that Lance was not on EPO all the time lol.

And the "numerous personal accounts of its benefits."
Big deal.

Did those EPO dopers also use speed or steroids during their racing?
If not, how can they compare the benefits?

 

[Zweistein]

"15%-25% increase in power" compared to what?

Certainly not compared to a roided up MMA Fighter on crank.....
Certainly not compared to an HGH'd and roided Rugby player.....

And the 15-25% increase in power did not help others when it came to beating Lance.
Lance crushed dozens and dozens and dozens of riders on EPO.
BTW, the data seems to indicate that Lance was not on EPO all the time lol.

And the "numerous personal accounts of its benefits."
Big deal.

Did those EPO dopers also use speed or steroids during their racing?
If not, how can they compare the benefits?

Everybody else probably didn't have the bravado that Lance had in doping. I haven't heard from anyone who wasn't a ex postal/discovery rider about bribing officials to sweep under positives. Hamilton, Hera, and Floyd were busted after leaving the team. Lance's opponents Ullrich, Mayo, Pantani, Botero, and Rasmusus all tested positive for something. It would appear that they were unable to sweep stuff under the rug like Lance had.

 

[Polish]

Everybody else probably didn't have the bravado that Lance had in doping. I haven't heard from anyone who wasn't a ex postal/discovery rider about bribing officials to sweep under positives. Hamilton, Hera, and Floyd were busted after leaving the team. Lance's opponents Ullrich, Mayo, Pantani, Botero, and Rasmusus all tested positive for something. It would appear that they were unable to sweep stuff under the rug like Lance had.

Lance had his positives swept under the rug....
Then Lance had the evidence of this "sweeping" swept under the rug too...
And if the Feds can't prove it?
You guessed it - because Lance had the Fed Investigation swept under the rug.

That is one lumpy carpet lol.

Luckily, it is impossible to sweep "awesome" under the rug.

 

[slcbiker]

lol.

how willfully ignorant do you have to be. but knowing your m.o., it is obvious that you chose to misinterpret. chrisE as ever wanting desperately to be controversial and say something that no one else says...yawn.

the accounts and studies of the huge advantage of epo (without steroids) are numerous and have been discussed here ad nauseum. there is a study that shows epo benefits 15%-25% increase in power (what we have seen 1990s-2000s) and a 50% increase in "time to exhaustion" (which would be the big one for three week tours that used to be decided by the rider who could recover best in the third week). then there are the numerous personal accounts of its benefits.

while i do not doubt that steroids helps, there is zero evidence that on its own it has anywhere near the effect of blood doping.

sorry to burst your intended bubble of controversy.

i rarely respond to your silliness, chrisE, because it is always so clearly an attempt to flame. consider this my last response to you on this matter as you return to the land of "ignore".

I'm generally in agreement that EPO was a new game, but not sure where you're getting an idea that EPO boosts power. Endurance sure, power endurance sure, but pure power? Doubtful. It doesn't increase muscle mass or recruitment or alter the ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch fibers. Steroids are almost certainly more effective for boosting power.

 

[Velodude]

I'm generally in agreement that EPO was a new game, but not sure where you're getting an idea that EPO boosts power. Endurance sure, power endurance sure, but pure power? Doubtful. It doesn't increase muscle mass or recruitment or alter the ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch fibers. Steroids are almost certainly more effective for boosting power.

EPO would boost aerobic power if more oxygen was made available to the working muscles. This would benefit GC riders, climbers, TTers and hard working domestiques.

Anaerobic (without oxygen) power should not be benefited only to the extent that stage sprinters may be less fatigued to "do their thing".

However, track sprinter, Marion Jones, was using EPO as a drug of choice. EPO has also a recovery benefit of increasing the flow of nutrients and oxygen to the muscles during the recovery period.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

EPO would boost aerobic power if more oxygen was made available to the working muscles. This would benefit GC riders, climbers, TTers and hard working domestiques.

Anaerobic (without oxygen) power should not be benefited only to the extent that stage sprinters may be less fatigued to "do their thing".

However, track sprinter, Marion Jones, was using EPO as a drug of choice. EPO has also a recovery benefit of increasing the flow of nutrients and oxygen to the muscles during the recovery period.

Can't actually site anything specific (Dr Mas is going to lose his sh*t over that), but I was talking to Ashenden in regards to refining the EPO test pre-Sydney games and his contention was that it increased cyclists' power 10-15%.

Imagine that! 10% more power? And better O2 carrying potential, and better recovery! Wow, that's some evil sh*t....