ergmonkey said:
It's not so often this happens, but we agree 100% here. Nobody just takes PED's and suddenly becomes the best in the world after not being a contender, nor does anyone take PED's and become a totally different type of athlete. They just gain a couple of percentage points in their performances.
Now, that said, will somebody explain to me why so many forum users are so sure that Bjarne Riis was "just a donkey," while other doped Tour winners are still referred to as talents?
what PEDs exactly? they are not the same.
what do you mean by "a couple of percentage points"? you do realize that at the pro level even a fraction of one percentage point can make a huge difference. epo is reputed to give you a 15-25% advantage over your previous self. do the math.
what defines a rider that is a donkey? it would seem to be subjective.
the grand tours test recovery more than anything else. a strong one day rider who doesn't recover well could suddenly become a strong one day rider every day for three weeks...without a single bad day. sound familiar?
as for riis, people disagree. however, here are some facts in 1989-90 he was almost without a job until fignon saved him. by 1993 -- in the most epo-ridden tour to that date he finishes 5th. between 1996 and 1997 the uci institutes the 50% rule. in 1996 riis totally dominates the tour. in 1997 he finishes 10th -- a shadow of the previous rider.
epo helps a rider with a natural 37 hct much more than one with a natural 46...again, do the math.
was riis a donkey? again, subjective. to me, no, he made it to the pros (without epo). however, he was borderline out of work. and then he won the tour. go figure.
but i 100% agree -- why are some riders still considered talented when we know they are dopers? there is no way of knowing. and that is why epo and blood doping destroys the sport for the fan. there is absolutely no sense of true hierarchy. is contador the guy who destroys everyone in a tour itt, or is he the guy (more like a natural climber) who gets destroyed (as he did this year)? in the last 20 years there have been a lot of heavy riders who have started climbing unbelievably. and there have been many climbers who have done amazingly well in itts. that never used to happen. because there was a natural hierarchy.