What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home :)

[SKSemtex]

So we have two almost equal groups. Which one prevails?

 

[SKSemtex]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

It looks like pool does not work. Sorry. It looks like I am idiot not able to open the thread with pool. .

EDIT: Somehow I fixed it.

 

[fauniera]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Poll not working. Pool nowhere to be seen, unfortunately.

 

[SKSemtex]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Can some mod fix it for me? Please.

 

[Netserk]

It all comes down to how one reads the elbow: was it an intentional act of violence? Was it just a reflex? Was it to stabilize Sagan after the impact with Cav? Did he hit him with the elbow or not?

If the first, then it is fair to send him home. Otherwise, not.

 

[8472]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Sagan should be disqualified, banned for life and jailed 2 years for assault causing bodily harm. No seriously, stupid decision, no matter which way you look at it, crash is at least 50/50 as much Cav's fault as Sagan's, and if Sagan is DQ, Cav and Demare should also have been DQ, and this sets precedent for other sprints to come where we'll see up to 10+ sprinters being DQed by end of tour if they follow the same protocol for all riders.

 

[SKSemtex]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

SPORZA has it like 70/30 against DQ.

http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/Tour/1.3016954

 

[fauniera]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

crash is at least 50/50 as much Cav's fault as Sagan's

90% Cavendish
10% Sagan

 

[Blanco]

Relegated maybe, DQ hell no!

 

[Brullnux]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

crash is at least 50/50 as much Cav's fault as Sagan's

90% Cavendish
10% Sagan

How? Is it because of that conveniently cut video?

 

[ihosama]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

..if Sagan is DQ, Cav and Demare should also have been DQ...

This.
Had they decided to set a precendent of "clean sprints" they would have penalized half that group. At a minimum Cav, Demare, Greipel, Sagan. In alphabetical order.

Was that the case, there would be lots of buthurts. But no controversy.

crash is at least 50/50 as much Cav's fault as Sagan's

90% Cavendish
10% Sagan

How? Is it because of that conveniently cut video?

Mostly because Cav chose to not break, when he could. The only thing Sagan could do, once he realized Cav was coming to the barriers from behind, was to increase speed so they can both pass. He could not turn and could not break once in the situation.

 

[Ramon Koran]

Voted yes, cutting off a rider going faster than you in a sprint is extremely dangerous, all he would have needed to do is look over his shoulder before drifting right, look at cav before he takes demarre's wheel he checks that no one is behind him that's how you sprint. Hopefully Sagan learns his lesson from this and is more aware in sprints in the future, unfortunately his comments about him not seeing he did anything wrong suggest otherwise.

 

[Brullnux]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

..if Sagan is DQ, Cav and Demare should also have been DQ...

This.
Had they decided to set a precendent of "clean sprints" they would have penalized half that group. At a minimum Cav, Demare, Greipel, Sagan. In alphabetical order.

Was that the case, there would be lots of buthurts. But no controversy.

crash is at least 50/50 as much Cav's fault as Sagan's

90% Cavendish
10% Sagan

How? Is it because of that conveniently cut video?

Mostly because Cav chose to not break, when he could. The only thing Sagan could do, once he realized Cav was coming to the barriers from behind, was to increase speed so they can both pass. He could not turn and could not break once in the situation.

Or perhaps Sagan should not have deviated off his line and recklessly endangered Cavendish and others. The dq was probably too far but it was completely Sagan's fault. It is not the duty of the rider getting cut across to brake: if you are driving on a motorway and someone cuts in front of you and you crash, it is not your fault for not braking, but the other person's fault for cutting you up and not looking. Same goes here.

 

[hrotha]

Voted No. He should have been relegated, not kicked out - that can only be justified if you think he actually elbowed Cav into the barriers to make him crash, but that hasn't been established, not to my satisfaction at least.

Much of what has been said in defense of Sagan or to criticize the decision is ridiculous and laughable, of course, but that doesn't change the above.

 

[fauniera]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

all he would have needed to do is look over his shoulder before drifting right

Right, because riders are looking over their shoulder in the middle of the sprint all the time. Or have eyes on their backs.

Just look at the video from above, there is no way Sagan could have seen Cavendish.

Or perhaps Sagan should not have deviated off his line and recklessly endangered Cavendish and others. The dq was probably too far but it was completely Sagan's fault.

Did Sagan force Cavendish to not brake? Or was that Cavendish's decision?

 

[Ramon Koran]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

all he would have needed to do is look over his shoulder before drifting right

Right, because riders are looking over their shoulder in the middle of the sprint all the time. Or have eyes on their backs.

Just look at the video from above, there is no way Sagan could have seen Cavendish.

Or perhaps Sagan should not have deviated off his line and recklessly endangered Cavendish and others. The dq was probably too far but it was completely Sagan's fault.

Did Sagan force Cavendish to not brake? Or was that Cavendish's decision?

In cases when you are drifting towards the barriers, yes you should look cause if someones there he's going to crash. It's not difficult to glance right for a split second before moving right, as was said you do the same in a car, Sagan is 100% responsible there's no other way of seeing it. Switching lanes in a sprint is dangerous and requires making sure of your action, in this case Sagan should have slowed up and waited for Cav to go through it's not Cavendish's fault Sagan is badly placed, he shouldn't have to break to let him through or worse crash.

 

[jmdirt]

DQ=no
Relegation=yes

When I got on the www this AM I was hoping to read that the race jury had decided to keep PS in the race...

 

[Tyre Byter]

Not a Sagan fan but what an injustice!
There has to be something more to this decision..... and I'm suspecting it's Russian hackers

 

[ihosama]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Or perhaps Sagan should not have deviated off his line and recklessly endangered Cavendish and others. The dq was probably too far but it was completely Sagan's fault. ...

I would be willing to accept that reasoning had Demare, Cav and Gorilla been penalized also. Demare for initiating all the chaos and cutting Bouhani. Gorilla for adding to it. Cav for intentionally (he could have prevented the crash, like Bouhani did) going into a collision situation. Sagan for not being careful enough when he took Demare wheel.

So we have 3 riders with obvious intentional actions => No penalty.
One rider with being "careless" for not watching his back => Harshest penalty that can be levied.

Now, I am willing to buy that the jury simply did not see the slow-mo footage and was later unable to amend the decision for procedural reasons. But then it highlights the whole penalization system being broken by design, as I wrote elsewhere.

Also, a car analogy is misplanced. For a start, it is a race on a closed circuit and not normal traffic. Second, cars have mandatory mirrors.

Not a Sagan fan but what an injustice!
There has to be something more to this decision..... and I'm suspecting it's Russian hackers

Rule #1 in SNAFU situations:
Do not look for conspiracy where incompetence will do.

EDIT: grammar

 

[carton]

Just a terrible job by the race jury. Truly epic stuff. Started off with the IMHO wrong but understandable and politically expedient thing to do, and just went worse from there, overestimating the public pressure to do something, and stutteringly fumbling it up into an absolute shocker. The ludicrous conceit and laughable inconsistency of eliminating him from the race was no only a travesty but went against the interests of all parties, not least the riders themselves, who want just want a consistent application of the rules.

On polls, BTW.

 

[latino]

Both are at fault, and intention can't be proved on the footage alone, it's too ambiguous.
Show that footage to 100 people, some will say DQ, others will say no DQ.
On that fact alone, the DQ is far too harsh without clear proof of intention to endanger another cyclist.
I vote "no".

 

[huangho]

Re:

Voted yes, cutting off a rider going faster than you in a sprint is extremely dangerous, all he would have needed to do is look over his shoulder before drifting right, look at cav before he takes demarre's wheel he checks that no one is behind him that's how you sprint. Hopefully Sagan learns his lesson from this and is more aware in sprints in the future, unfortunately his comments about him not seeing he did anything wrong suggest otherwise.

Yes, I'll love to sprint looking back first instead of looking what's happening in front of me... When the sprint is launched there is no way you can look back, if you do that you can make a huge mess, because you are watching your front wheel and matching your speed to the bike next to you, because there are only inches separating you from mayhem...

That being said, I agree that peto should have been punished, but Demare must have been punished as well, he was in front and he crosses the whole group trying to block all of them, an accident magneto if you ask me.

Cav wanted to follow Demare's wheel but there was no space to follow because Sagan was in front and there were less than a meter between him and the barrier, but that is easy to say when you have a slow motion repeat on camera, if you are at 60 km/h you don't see a meter, you see a huge gap opening in front of your eyes. Do you remember Giro's stage 13 sprint from Gaviria?? He sorted the barriers by mere inches, today we remember that sprint as one of the best sprints ever seen on Giro!!

If you feel your legs and you see a tiny place to go, you just go!! You can't think, you can only go for it, that was what happened to Cav, so there is nothing to blame on him.

So, sending him home was unfair and excesive, -80pts and relegation was enough, but the Tour wanted to make a statement: no agressive sprints from now on!!

 

[canarydan23]

You can argue that the DQ was harsh quite justifiably but the people trying to make out the incident was a 50/50 or somehow more Cavendish's fault are really showing themselves up.

 

[SKSemtex]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Waw 10/90 . It looks like those groups are not that equal afterall. .
When I saw the first video from sprint, I said "f###". This time you really f###ed up Peter. But the more evidenence, pictures and videos is coming out, the more it looks like he is completly inocent.
Cav has big balls in the sprints (and the head too )but no balls to say that jury *** up this time big.
After what he said about jury decision I doubt Peter is his friend anymore and he deserves all the blame he is getting now.

 

[KGB]

Re: Re:

Voted yes, cutting off a rider going faster than you in a sprint is extremely dangerous, all he would have needed to do is look over his shoulder before drifting right, look at cav before he takes demarre's wheel he checks that no one is behind him that's how you sprint. Hopefully Sagan learns his lesson from this and is more aware in sprints in the future, unfortunately his comments about him not seeing he did anything wrong suggest otherwise.

Yes, I'll love to sprint looking back first instead of looking what's happening in front of me... When the sprint is launched there is no way you can look back, if you do that you can make a huge mess, because you are watching your front wheel and matching your speed to the bike next to you, because there are only inches separating you from mayhem...

That being said, I agree that peto should have been punished, but Demare must have been punished as well, he was in front and he crosses the whole group trying to block all of them, an accident magneto if you ask me.

Cav wanted to follow Demare's wheel but there was no space to follow because Sagan was in front and there were less than a meter between him and the barrier, but that is easy to say when you have a slow motion repeat on camera, if you are at 60 km/h you don't see a meter, you see a huge gap opening in front of your eyes. Do you remember Giro's stage 13 sprint from Gaviria?? He sorted the barriers by mere inches, today we remember that sprint as one of the best sprints ever seen on Giro!!

If you feel your legs and you see a tiny place to go, you just go!! You can't think, you can only go for it, that was what happened to Cav, so there is nothing to blame on him.

So, sending him home was unfair and excesive, -80pts and relegation was enough, but the Tour wanted to make a statement: no agressive sprints from now on!!

Another thing was Cav.spoted and hit with his front wheel canal hole on the road and thats why he stop pedaling and lay on Sagan which was probably good thing because otherwise he would hit Sagan's bars and took him down as well(That's why he is not upset with Sagan?!).