What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home :)

[Echoes]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Am I hallucinating or some here are defending the Slovak by claiming Cavendish should have braked ... in order to let Her Highness deviate from his line as he pleased because he's above the rule...

Naesen braked. Thereby he avoided a massive crash and consequently Groenewegen was not DQ'd ...

 

[King Boonen]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

crash is at least 50/50 as much Cav's fault as Sagan's

90% Cavendish
10% Sagan

How? Is it because of that conveniently cut video?

Probably. The one that makes it look like he only pulled the move once...

 

[King Boonen]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Am I hallucinating or some here are defending the Slovak by claiming Cavendish should have braked ... in order to let Her Highness deviate from his line as he pleased because he's above the rule...

Naesen braked. Thereby he avoided a massive crash and consequently Groenewegen was not DQ'd ...

Basically yes. It's the same logic you see time and time again on helmet camera video comments. A car/van/etc. driver does something stupid, recklessly endangering a cyclist, but somehow the cyclist is also partially to blame because they should have braked and got out of the way.

 

[tobydawq]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Am I hallucinating or some here are defending the Slovak by claiming Cavendish should have braked ... in order to let Her Highness deviate from his line as he pleased because he's above the rule...

Naesen braked. Thereby he avoided a massive crash and consequently Groenewegen was not DQ'd ...

Basically yes. It's the same logic you see time and time again on helmet camera video comments. A car/van/etc. driver does something stupid, recklessly endangering a cyclist, but somehow the cyclist is also partially to blame because they should have braked and got out of the way.

Last time I checked, Sagan didn't ride with wing mirrors...

 

[d-s3]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Last time I checked, Sagan didn't ride with wing mirrors...

For Echoes it does not really matter what happened. Sagan is anyway guilty.

 

[SeriousSam]

No. Based on the footage I've seen there's too much doubt as to whether Sagan intentionally elbowed Cavendish to make him crash.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Am I hallucinating or some here are defending the Slovak by claiming Cavendish should have braked ... in order to let Her Highness deviate from his line as he pleased because he's above the rule...

Naesen braked. Thereby he avoided a massive crash and consequently Groenewegen was not DQ'd ...

Basically yes. It's the same logic you see time and time again on helmet camera video comments. A car/van/etc. driver does something stupid, recklessly endangering a cyclist, but somehow the cyclist is also partially to blame because they should have braked and got out of the way.

Last time I checked, Sagan didn't ride with wing mirrors...

Yeah and a world class sprinter sitting at third wheel when the sprint kicks of and who decides to jump on someone that comes from behind him should never expect someone else to be on that wheel already...

 

[Echoes]

Had a look back at the infamous Steve Bauer Claude Criquielion sprint of the Ronse Worlds 1988. I thought Bauer did not lift the elbow but he did a little. I know that there's a trend to reinstate Steve Bauer in younger years but looking back at it the DQ was perfectly justified and I don't see how anyone could think otherwise. Not to say that Bauer was the devil though. He was a great cyclist but a bad move that day on a race that was so important, especially for us in Belgium, only a few kilometers from where Criq lived.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI4W2l2J7fg

 

[hrotha]

Sprinters don't need mirrors, they just need to not stray from their line.

 

[SKSemtex]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

SPORZA fans voted 23/77 against DQ.
http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/Tour/1.3016954

They all are incompetent and blind.
For me, it is the pretty convincing rate.

 

[The Principal Sheep]

Sagan was at fault and should have been penalised however I see no evidence of intent and the elbow was by reaction for protection. The disqualification is a step too far and devalues the event.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Sagan was at fault and should have been penalised however I see no evidence of intent and the elbow was by reaction for protection. The disqualification is a step too far and devalues the event.

This seems fair, the elbow didn't really bother me as I'd missed the stage and saw all the analysis after and how it was likely caused by Cav's Bars. My problem is that in the head on video I can see Sagan attempt to take Demare's wheel once, fail, and then try again. Both times he shifts right and both times there is a an elbow lift. The second time he does it he sticks Cav in the barriers. He was third wheel when the sprint kicked off so I find it very hard to believe he didn't know, or at least expect, another sprinter to be one Demare's wheel. The two attempts to get the wheel make me fairly sure he knew someone was there.

For me, the first attempt to get Demare's wheel is fine, fighting for wheels it what sprinters do, it's the second time that troubles me.

I probably wouldn't have DSQ'd him. Declassified, heavy points loss and a fine would be enough.

For what it's worth I also think people are missing out the important part of the line deviation rule:

2.3.036 Sprints
Riders shall be strictly forbidden to deviate from the lane they selected when launching into the sprint and, in so doing, endangering others.

Line deviation is absolutely fine as long as it's safe. For me, Sagan's first deviation was safe, it's the second one that wasn't.

 

[Alexandre B.]

Boonen voted 'yes'.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Boonen voted 'yes'.

Me or actual Boonen? I've not voted.

 

[Alexandre B.]

Re: Re:

Boonen voted 'yes'.

Me or actual Boonen? I've not voted.

The actual one.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Boonen voted 'yes'.

Me or actual Boonen? I've not voted.

The actual one.

Sagan needs to focus on the Ronde record then

 

[DFA123]

Re:

Boonen voted 'yes'.

Kittel and Matthews seemed to think the decision had some merit as well.

 

[happytramp]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Sagan caused the accident but should not have been sent home. Sprinters do it all the time, including Cavendish.

 

[loge1884]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

In cases when you are drifting towards the barriers, yes you should look cause if someones there he's going to crash. It's not difficult to glance right for a split second before moving right, as was said you do the same in a car, Sagan is 100% responsible there's no other way of seeing it. Switching lanes in a sprint is dangerous and requires making sure of your action, in this case Sagan should have slowed up and waited for Cav to go through it's not Cavendish's fault Sagan is badly placed, he shouldn't have to break to let him through or worse crash.

sorry, comparing a bunch sprint situation with "normal day traffic" makes absolutely no sense at all ..... the sprinters are riding at max speed possible, within the limits of man and bike (would be comparable with dragster racing perhaps) ... there is no way you can look around and consider decisions - it's all about instinct, which you either have or you don't (that's also one reason why bunch sprints including non-sprinters, like in first week TdF stages, are that dangerous) .... if you look around too much, you'll loose your balance and by that way cause accidents ...

there are three things very dangerous in cycling: descents, cars/motorbikes running over you and bunch sprints .... the only way you could make bunch sprints a little safer would be to mark lanes in say the last 300m and everyone (or his teammate) crossing any lane would be disqualified .... however I am not sure if the roads are broad enough to have say at least 4 - 5 lanes

 

[DFA123]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

In cases when you are drifting towards the barriers, yes you should look cause if someones there he's going to crash. It's not difficult to glance right for a split second before moving right, as was said you do the same in a car, Sagan is 100% responsible there's no other way of seeing it. Switching lanes in a sprint is dangerous and requires making sure of your action, in this case Sagan should have slowed up and waited for Cav to go through it's not Cavendish's fault Sagan is badly placed, he shouldn't have to break to let him through or worse crash.

sorry, comparing a bunch sprint situation with "normal day traffic" makes absolutely no sense at all ..... the sprinters are riding at max speed possible, within the limits of man and bike (would be comparable with dragster racing perhaps) ... there is no way you can look around and consider decisions - it's all about instinct, which you either have or you don't (that's also one reason why bunch sprints including non-sprinters, like in first week TdF stages, are that dangerous) .... if you look around too much, you'll loose your balance and by that way cause accidents ...

there are three things very dangerous in cycling: descents, cars/motorbikes running over you and bunch sprints .... the only way you could make bunch sprints a little safer would be to mark lanes in say the last 300m and everyone (or his teammate) crossing any lane would be disqualified .... however I am not sure if the roads are broad enough to have say at least 4 - 5 lanes

That's not true. Sending riders home who sprint dangerously and cause crashes will also make sprints safer. If the only punishment is getting relegated on a stage, then sprinters will always take the chance to change line and block are barge into another rider, because the punishment is nowhere near enough of a deterrent compared with the potential rewards.

If riders are sent home from GTS for deviating dangerously and using their elbows aggressively, then they'll stop doing it. There may be a short transition period where a lot of riders are getting sent home, but eventually it will become the new normal.

 

[Dr. Watson]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

In cases when you are drifting towards the barriers, yes you should look cause if someones there he's going to crash. It's not difficult to glance right for a split second before moving right, as was said you do the same in a car, Sagan is 100% responsible there's no other way of seeing it. Switching lanes in a sprint is dangerous and requires making sure of your action, in this case Sagan should have slowed up and waited for Cav to go through it's not Cavendish's fault Sagan is badly placed, he shouldn't have to break to let him through or worse crash.

sorry, comparing a bunch sprint situation with "normal day traffic" makes absolutely no sense at all ..... the sprinters are riding at max speed possible, within the limits of man and bike (would be comparable with dragster racing perhaps) ... there is no way you can look around and consider decisions - it's all about instinct, which you either have or you don't (that's also one reason why bunch sprints including non-sprinters, like in first week TdF stages, are that dangerous) .... if you look around too much, you'll loose your balance and by that way cause accidents ...

there are three things very dangerous in cycling: descents, cars/motorbikes running over you and bunch sprints .... the only way you could make bunch sprints a little safer would be to mark lanes in say the last 300m and everyone (or his teammate) crossing any lane would be disqualified .... however I am not sure if the roads are broad enough to have say at least 4 - 5 lanes

That's not true. Sending riders home who sprint dangerously and cause crashes will also make sprints safer. If the only punishment is getting relegated on a stage, then sprinters will always take the chance to change line and block are barge into another rider, because the punishment is nowhere near enough of a deterrent compared with the potential rewards.

If riders are sent home from GTS for deviating dangerously and using their elbows aggressively, then they'll stop doing it. There may be a short transition period where a lot of riders are getting sent home, but eventually it will become the new normal.

Then they should send Demare home as well or at least some sort of relegation but they didnt do anything about him so that seems one sided

 

[trucido]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Then they should send Demare home as well or at least some sort of relegation but they didnt do anything about him so that seems one sided

Yeah, that is one unspoken reason why a lot of the pros disagreed with the Sagan expulsion -
because Demare did a really devious and treacherous cut-off move to the left - that would have clipped Bouhanni's front wheel and caused a mass crash, if Bouhanni had not braked. Way worse move than Sagan in terms of dangerous sprinting, but Demare not relegated, somewhat hypocritical by the jury

If Demare also got DQ'ed, then at least the precedent is fair.

Any argument that keeps Demare in the race and DQs Sagan is nonsense.

 

[DFA123]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Then they should send Demare home as well or at least some sort of relegation but they didnt do anything about him so that seems one sided

Yeah, that is one unspoken reason why a lot of the pros disagreed with the Sagan expulsion -
because Demare did a really devious and treacherous cut-off move to the left - that would have clipped Bouhanni's front wheel and caused a mass crash, if Bouhanni had not braked. Way worse move than Sagan in terms of dangerous sprinting, but Demare not relegated, somewhat hypocritical by the jury

The difference as I saw it was that Demare was accelerating a lot quicker past Bouhanni in the middle of the road. It was on the limit of sportsmanlike, but wasn't especially dangerous in itself as Bouhanni was going backwards and knew he had lost the sprint by then anyway. Which is nowhere near as dangerous as riding a diagonal line to block a faster up and coming rider against the barriers - which is what Sagan did; twice.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Then they should send Demare home as well or at least some sort of relegation but they didnt do anything about him so that seems one sided

Yeah, that is one unspoken reason why a lot of the pros disagreed with the Sagan expulsion -
because Demare did a really devious and treacherous cut-off move to the left - that would have clipped Bouhanni's front wheel and caused a mass crash, if Bouhanni had not braked. Way worse move than Sagan in terms of dangerous sprinting, but Demare not relegated, somewhat hypocritical by the jury

The difference as I saw it was that Demare was accelerating a lot quicker past Bouhanni in the middle of the road. It was on the limit of sportsmanlike, but wasn't especially dangerous in itself as Bouhanni was going backwards and knew he had lost the sprint by then anyway. Which is nowhere near as dangerous as riding a diagonal line to block a faster up and coming rider against the barriers - which is what Sagan did; twice.

This. Demare's timing was off, he should have held on a little longer and left Bouhanni more room, but Bouhanni was spent and rapidly going backwards. In this situation Demare should have priority, he just should have been more careful.

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Then they should send Demare home as well or at least some sort of relegation but they didnt do anything about him so that seems one sided

Yeah, that is one unspoken reason why a lot of the pros disagreed with the Sagan expulsion -
because Demare did a really devious and treacherous cut-off move to the left - that would have clipped Bouhanni's front wheel and caused a mass crash, if Bouhanni had not braked. Way worse move than Sagan in terms of dangerous sprinting, but Demare not relegated, somewhat hypocritical by the jury

The difference as I saw it was that Demare was accelerating a lot quicker past Bouhanni in the middle of the road. It was on the limit of sportsmanlike, but wasn't especially dangerous in itself as Bouhanni was going backwards and knew he had lost the sprint by then anyway. Which is nowhere near as dangerous as riding a diagonal line to block a faster up and coming rider against the barriers - which is what Sagan did; twice.

That's not really the point. Démare's move was dangerous regardless of whether he was at faster speed than Bouhanni. If Nacer had not decided to brake, Démare would have made him crash.

Also Démare's swing to the left was more radical (and more diagonal if you will) than the slight and gradual deviation to the right that Sagan rode.

As I see it there is only one thing to criticize Sagan for: his slight deviation to the right. And if that is enough to DQ him, then surely Démare should also have been heavily penalized. And so should all sprinters in virtually every sprint.