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What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home :)

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Easy question. Should they have sent him home?

  • no

    Votes: 102 88.7%
  • yes

    Votes: 13 11.3%

  • Total voters
    115
Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Cance > TheRest said:
DFA123 said:
ClassicomanoLuigi said:
Then they should send Demare home as well or at least some sort of relegation but they didnt do anything about him so that seems one sided
Yeah, that is one unspoken reason why a lot of the pros disagreed with the Sagan expulsion -
because Demare did a really devious and treacherous cut-off move to the left - that would have clipped Bouhanni's front wheel and caused a mass crash, if Bouhanni had not braked. Way worse move than Sagan in terms of dangerous sprinting, but Demare not relegated, somewhat hypocritical by the jury
The difference as I saw it was that Demare was accelerating a lot quicker past Bouhanni in the middle of the road. It was on the limit of sportsmanlike, but wasn't especially dangerous in itself as Bouhanni was going backwards and knew he had lost the sprint by then anyway. Which is nowhere near as dangerous as riding a diagonal line to block a faster up and coming rider against the barriers - which is what Sagan did; twice.
That's not really the point. Démare's move was dangerous regardless of whether he was at faster speed than Bouhanni. If Nacer had not decided to brake, Démare would have made him crash.

Also Démare's swing to the left was more radical (and more diagonal if you will) than the slight and gradual deviation to the right that Sagan rode.

As I see it there is only one thing to criticize Sagan for: his slight deviation to the right. And if that is enough to DQ him, then surely Démare should also have been heavily penalized. And so should all sprinters in virtually every sprint.
I disagree, but it's certainly open to interpretation. The commisaires must feel the same though to have reached their conclusions. The outcome of the actions surely has an effect as well. It's pretty hard to say Demare's actions were more dangerous than Sagan's; when it is Cavendish who is out of the Tour with a broken shoulder, not Bouhanni.
 
Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

DFA123 said:
Cance > TheRest said:
DFA123 said:
ClassicomanoLuigi said:
Then they should send Demare home as well or at least some sort of relegation but they didnt do anything about him so that seems one sided
Yeah, that is one unspoken reason why a lot of the pros disagreed with the Sagan expulsion -
because Demare did a really devious and treacherous cut-off move to the left - that would have clipped Bouhanni's front wheel and caused a mass crash, if Bouhanni had not braked. Way worse move than Sagan in terms of dangerous sprinting, but Demare not relegated, somewhat hypocritical by the jury
The difference as I saw it was that Demare was accelerating a lot quicker past Bouhanni in the middle of the road. It was on the limit of sportsmanlike, but wasn't especially dangerous in itself as Bouhanni was going backwards and knew he had lost the sprint by then anyway. Which is nowhere near as dangerous as riding a diagonal line to block a faster up and coming rider against the barriers - which is what Sagan did; twice.
That's not really the point. Démare's move was dangerous regardless of whether he was at faster speed than Bouhanni. If Nacer had not decided to brake, Démare would have made him crash.

Also Démare's swing to the left was more radical (and more diagonal if you will) than the slight and gradual deviation to the right that Sagan rode.

As I see it there is only one thing to criticize Sagan for: his slight deviation to the right. And if that is enough to DQ him, then surely Démare should also have been heavily penalized. And so should all sprinters in virtually every sprint.
I disagree, but it's certainly open to interpretation. The commisaires must feel the same though to have reached their conclusions. The outcome of the actions surely has an effect as well. It's pretty hard to say Demare's actions were more dangerous than Sagan's; when it is Cavendish who is out of the Tour with a broken shoulder, not Bouhanni.
Because Bouhanni braked. Cav did not. The outcome (crash or no crash) would likely have been the same if the two "victims" had acted in a similar manner ;)
 
Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

ClassicomanoLuigi said:
Then they should send Demare home as well or at least some sort of relegation but they didnt do anything about him so that seems one sided
Yeah, that is one unspoken reason why a lot of the pros disagreed with the Sagan expulsion -
because Demare did a really devious and treacherous cut-off move to the left - that would have clipped Bouhanni's front wheel and caused a mass crash, if Bouhanni had not braked. Way worse move than Sagan in terms of dangerous sprinting, but Demare not relegated, somewhat hypocritical by the jury

Jury made several mistakes here.
They made a fast decision. Relegation. OK.
After the complaint of DD they changed to DQ. (they broke they own rules - nothing new in cycling of course ) - main reason dangerous air elbow.
Bora complaint is denied insisting on they rule, that jury verdict is definite, even knowing that they elbow hitting version is pure nonsense.
If the main reason for disqualification is sudden line deviation than there are min. two more riders that have to be additionally relegated
 
Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Cance > TheRest said:
Because Bouhanni braked. Cav did not. The outcome (crash or no crash) would likely have been the same if the two "victims" had acted in a similar manner ;)
But it was a lot easier for Bouhanni to back off. He was going much slower than Demare and he was in the middle of the road. Cavendish, on the other hand, was going faster than Sagan, and suddenly found himself pinned against the barriers. Which is why Sagan's actions were so dangerous; then he made it even worse by flicking an elbow.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Sagan certainly should have been relegated. When Cav and Demare started their pass of Sagan, Sagan was on the left side of the road close to the left barrier but as Cav and Demare went around Sagan, Sagan deviated from the left side all the way to the right, forcing Demare and Cab further and further right, eventually crushing Cav into the right barrier. There is no question Satan deviated his line and was a danger to everyone on the road. The question is did he intentionally hit Cav? The flicking of the elbow suggests the possibility, plus the allegations by riders that Sagan caused the other crash at 1km as well add in his decent encounter with Greipel and it appears Sagan is out of control and a danger to everyone.

If this was just one isolated incident I would understand just a relegation but it appears to be part of a pattern of dangerous out of control behavior by Sagan at this tour.
 
Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

DFA123 said:
Cance > TheRest said:
Because Bouhanni braked. Cav did not. The outcome (crash or no crash) would likely have been the same if the two "victims" had acted in a similar manner ;)
But it was a lot easier for Bouhanni to back off. He was going much slower than Demare and he was in the middle of the road. Cavendish, on the other hand, was going faster than Sagan, and suddenly found himself pinned against the barriers. Which is why Sagan's actions were so dangerous; then he made it even worse by flicking an elbow.
So I assume if you are about to lose balance and crash, you will not try to counterbalance the potential fall? How is that 'making it worse'? The elbow did not cause the crash - I thought that was universally established at this point
 
Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Cance > TheRest said:
DFA123 said:
Cance > TheRest said:
Because Bouhanni braked. Cav did not. The outcome (crash or no crash) would likely have been the same if the two "victims" had acted in a similar manner ;)
But it was a lot easier for Bouhanni to back off. He was going much slower than Demare and he was in the middle of the road. Cavendish, on the other hand, was going faster than Sagan, and suddenly found himself pinned against the barriers. Which is why Sagan's actions were so dangerous; then he made it even worse by flicking an elbow.
So I assume if you are about to lose balance and crash, you will not try to counterbalance the potential fall? How is that 'making it worse'? The elbow did not cause the crash - I thought that was universally established at this point
Nothing has been 'universally established'; it's clearly open to interpretation. Cavendish seems to think the elbow was an issue; and he's the guy who was on the receiving end of it. Whether or not it was the cause of the crash, i'm pretty sure it didn't help his case with the comissaires.
 
Apr 12, 2017
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Re:

Chomsky said:
Sagan certainly should have been relegated. When Cav and Demare started their pass of Sagan, Sagan was on the left side of the road close to the left barrier but as Cav and Demare went around Sagan, Sagan deviated from the left side all the way to the right, forcing Demare and Cab further and further right, eventually crushing Cav into the right barrier. There is no question Satan deviated his line and was a danger to everyone on the road. The question is did he intentionally hit Cav? The flicking of the elbow suggests the possibility, plus the allegations by riders that Sagan caused the other crash at 1km as well add in his decent encounter with Greipel and it appears Sagan is out of control and a danger to everyone.

If this was just one isolated incident I would understand just a relegation but it appears to be part of a pattern of dangerous out of control behavior by Sagan at this tour.

Out of control? come on, incident with Greipel was nothing, some other sprinter was coming to Sagan from left and so he slightly balanced on the right next to Greipel nothing more to it and crash at 1 km was not Sagans fault either
 
Re:

Chomsky said:
Sagan certainly should have been relegated. When Cav and Demare started their pass of Sagan, Sagan was on the left side of the road close to the left barrier but as Cav and Demare went around Sagan, Sagan deviated from the left side all the way to the right, forcing Demare and Cab further and further right, eventually crushing Cav into the right barrier. There is no question Satan deviated his line and was a danger to everyone on the road. The question is did he intentionally hit Cav? The flicking of the elbow suggests the possibility, plus the allegations by riders that Sagan caused the other crash at 1km as well add in his decent encounter with Greipel and it appears Sagan is out of control and a danger to everyone.

If this was just one isolated incident I would understand just a relegation but it appears to be part of a pattern of dangerous out of control behavior by Sagan at this tour.

I know it was dangerous but that's a bit much isn't it? :D
 
Mar 15, 2016
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Re: Re:

happytramp said:
Chomsky said:
Sagan certainly should have been relegated. When Cav and Demare started their pass of Sagan, Sagan was on the left side of the road close to the left barrier but as Cav and Demare went around Sagan, Sagan deviated from the left side all the way to the right, forcing Demare and Cab further and further right, eventually crushing Cav into the right barrier. There is no question Satan deviated his line and was a danger to everyone on the road. The question is did he intentionally hit Cav? The flicking of the elbow suggests the possibility, plus the allegations by riders that Sagan caused the other crash at 1km as well add in his decent encounter with Greipel and it appears Sagan is out of control and a danger to everyone.

If this was just one isolated incident I would understand just a relegation but it appears to be part of a pattern of dangerous out of control behavior by Sagan at this tour.

I know it was dangerous but that's a bit much isn't it? :D

Satan :lol:

Demare's swipe wasn't any more dangerous than Sagan's move, but it isn't wasn't any less either.
 
Re:

Echoes said:
Had a look back at the infamous Steve Bauer Claude Criquielion sprint of the Ronse Worlds 1988. I thought Bauer did not lift the elbow but he did a little. I know that there's a trend to reinstate Steve Bauer in younger years but looking back at it the DQ was perfectly justified and I don't see how anyone could think otherwise. Not to say that Bauer was the devil though. He was a great cyclist but a bad move that day on a race that was so important, especially for us in Belgium, only a few kilometers from where Criq lived.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI4W2l2J7fg
The rules are not the same for what it takes to DQ a rider in a stage race and a one-day race.
 
Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

ClassicomanoLuigi said:
Then they should send Demare home as well or at least some sort of relegation but they didnt do anything about him so that seems one sided
Yeah, that is one unspoken reason why a lot of the pros disagreed with the Sagan expulsion -
because Demare did a really devious and treacherous cut-off move to the left - that would have clipped Bouhanni's front wheel and caused a mass crash, if Bouhanni had not braked. Way worse move than Sagan in terms of dangerous sprinting, but Demare not relegated, somewhat hypocritical by the jury

Demare actually did clip Bouhanni's front wheel. It was fortunate that he didn't crash.
 
Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

SKSemtex said:
SPORZA fans voted 23/77 against DQ.
http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/Tour/1.3016954

They all are incompetent and blind.
For me, it is the pretty convincing rate.
Convincing of what?

Our world would be a wonderful place if majority was always right. A problem? Just let the people vote and we have the best solution. :cool:

Unfortunately, most of people are actually incompetent and blind, regardless if they are cycling fans, voters in elections etc.
 
Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Cance > TheRest said:
Because Bouhanni braked. Cav did not. The outcome (crash or no crash) would likely have been the same if the two "victims" had acted in a similar manner ;)
Exactly.

I think former sprinter Gord Fraser said it best:

Gord Fraser said:
It's clear that when when Demare launched he'd be the one to beat and Sagan was simply desperate to hitch on. Cav had already gambled up barrier side and had momentum but that half bike length he left behind Demare was all the peripheral space Sagan went for. I'm sure PS had zero clue Cav was even there until they made contact and did well to stay upright.

Lesson? When you go up the narrow barrier side be prepared for the door to close. Gaviria won taking this risk in the Giro. Sometimes you hit jackpot despite the odds. Unfortunately for Cav it was craps. No foul and certainly no DQ merited. I'd say Demare chopping over Bouhani's front wheel was a more conscious and risky move but still within sprinting limitations.
 
Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

DFA123 said:
ClassicomanoLuigi said:
Then they should send Demare home as well or at least some sort of relegation but they didnt do anything about him so that seems one sided
Yeah, that is one unspoken reason why a lot of the pros disagreed with the Sagan expulsion -
because Demare did a really devious and treacherous cut-off move to the left - that would have clipped Bouhanni's front wheel and caused a mass crash, if Bouhanni had not braked. Way worse move than Sagan in terms of dangerous sprinting, but Demare not relegated, somewhat hypocritical by the jury
The difference as I saw it was that Demare was accelerating a lot quicker past Bouhanni in the middle of the road. It was on the limit of sportsmanlike, but wasn't especially dangerous in itself as Bouhanni was going backwards and knew he had lost the sprint by then anyway. Which is nowhere near as dangerous as riding a diagonal line to block a faster up and coming rider against the barriers - which is what Sagan did; twice.

Demare actually hit Bouhanni's front wheel with his rear wheel in taking his diagonal line across the road. How the race officials did not even take note of that is a crime, the second one that they committed that day.
 
Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

Anderis said:
SKSemtex said:
SPORZA fans voted 23/77 against DQ.
http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/Tour/1.3016954

They all are incompetent and blind.
For me, it is the pretty convincing rate.
Convincing of what?

Our world would be a wonderful place if majority was always right. A problem? Just let the people vote and we have the best solution. :cool:

Unfortunately, most of people are actually incompetent and blind, regardless if they are cycling fans, voters in elections etc.

Thanks GOD we have you.

I took the Sporza vote just because it is not in English so I do not think too many irrational, biased slovak Sagan fans (like me) took the part. :D
 
Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

LOL. I have just heard the "hottest" explanation of the changing verdict from relegation to DQ :D
Sport Betting Mafia. :lol: that made a lot of money with Sagan out of race. and out of green yersey competition
 
Re: What about little pool regarding Sagan beeing sent home

SKSemtex said:
LOL. I have just heard the "hottest" explanation of the changing verdict from relegation to DQ :D
Sport Betting Mafia. :lol: that made a lot of money with Sagan out of race. and out of green yersey competition
That's nuts its obvious that Demare caused the mayhem but hes french so they pinned it on Sagan.
 
Feb 21, 2017
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The podcast on CN here http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/the...been-ejected-from-the-tour-de-france-podcast/ has some pretty good breakdown opinions. I voted no simply because the evidence doesn't seem to be there for a DQ, though the original judgement would have sent the right message. As has been pointed out by others, Demare's move was much more conspicuous and potentially dangerous, so when all the guilty parties aren't granted the same (lack of) leniency the outcome reeks of politics.
 
Voted no for two reasons.

1: I don't believe Sagan thought/knew Cav was there until they touched.
2: the elbow was IMO just an instinctive counter balance to the touch. Then a "give me space" action. It did not cause Cav to crash.

It was partially on PS because he shut the door, but it was not intentional. Sprinting is dangerous, crashes happen. The initial decision probably was correct.
 

KGB

Apr 16, 2015
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Re:

Chomsky said:
Sagan certainly should have been relegated. When Cav and Demare started their pass of Sagan, Sagan was on the left side of the road close to the left barrier but as Cav and Demare went around Sagan, Sagan deviated from the left side all the way to the right, forcing Demare and Cab further and further right, eventually crushing Cav into the right barrier. There is no question Satan deviated his line and was a danger to everyone on the road. The question is did he intentionally hit Cav? The flicking of the elbow suggests the possibility, plus the allegations by riders that Sagan caused the other crash at 1km as well add in his decent encounter with Greipel and it appears Sagan is out of control and a danger to everyone.

If this was just one isolated incident I would understand just a relegation but it appears to be part of a pattern of dangerous out of control behavior by Sagan at this tour.
Nope.Greipel apologize to Sagan saying that.Try to search for updates?