What constitutes cheating ???

[Justinr]

A couple of posts in the SKY forum has made me start this.

The comment was along the lines of "if its not on the WADA list then its not banned" and referred to Tramadol.

So instead of it derailing the SKY thread i thought it would be good for people to debate here. An example I can think of is Actovegin - not on the list as a banned product but the method is banned. AICAR and EPO are mentioned specifically. Similarly Oxycodone is banned as an opiod narcotic but Tramadol isn't.

And what about Xenon? What about altitude tents?


Mods - if this has been covered before please can you merge in - I did a quick search but couldn't see anything.

EDIT - on rereading I was thinking the title should read doping not cheating since that was what was on my mind, but cheating is probably a better description since in can include mechanical bike doping (and the fact that i couldn't work out how to change it).

 

[bobbins]

How about 'if it's not detectable then it isn't cheating'.

That used to be the mantra in the 90s. Cortisone / synachten etc.

 

[ebandit]

sticky

sticky bottles/ drafting cars.............obvious cheating
hard training at altitude.............obvious cheating
excessive team work.............obvious cheating
signing best riders.............obvious cheating
sports psychology.............obvious cheating
covering helmet air vents.............obvious cheating
skinsuits for road racing.............obvious cheating
bike motors.............obvious cheating
alien cross breeding.............obvious cheating

they're ALL doing it
Mark L

 

[Justinr]

sticky bottles/ drafting cars.............obvious cheating
hard training at altitude.............obvious cheating
excessive team work.............obvious cheating
signing best riders.............obvious cheating
sports psychology.............obvious cheating
covering helmet air vents.............obvious cheating
skinsuits for road racing.............obvious cheating
bike motors.............obvious cheating
alien cross breeding.............obvious cheating

they're ALL doing it
Mark L

Well the intention was to be slightly more serious and have a proper debate so we don't get comments like "never tested positive" or "they're all doing it". More along the lines of the Tramadol and Xenon debates we've seen flashed of.

 

[Catwhoorg]

"Legally" The WADA code defines what doping is.

(Tramadol is certainly not on the list, its arguable that xenon is covered, but that would be for a sports lawyer or two to actually argue in front of a tribunal).
Altitude training, or a tent is specifically NOT cheating.

The UCI specifies what is allowed as a race bike (ie no disk brakes for now, that will change soon) and this includes a minimum weight

The race organizers (and the UCI) define the rules of the race.

A team may or may not have an internal code above and beyond those.


Between those, that defines what is allowed and what is cheating. Though sometimes such as riding off the pave recently, its not well enforced.




Personally, I like the attitude of Taylor Phinney, and Steve Cummings, who personally go well above and beyond 'the rules'.

 

[veganrob]

If I am not mistaken, a product does not have to be on the banned list to be considered illegal. And, it does not necessarily have to be an analogue or derivateive to a producty that is on the banned list.
Someone could probably explain this better.

 

[Almeisan]

sticky bottles/ drafting cars.............obvious cheating

They cheat. Remember when some of you bashed football players for diving. Same thing. Gaming the system.

Every pro athlete cheats if you let him get away with it. The doping system obviously did in the past.

Question is that with more advanced 'medicine'/pharmaceuticals, there is now less opportunity or more opportunity to cheat?

 

[Catwhoorg]

If I am not mistaken, a product does not have to be on the banned list to be considered illegal. And, it does not necessarily have to be an analogue or derivateive to a producty that is on the banned list.
Someone could probably explain this better.

There a whole lot of 'catch all clauses' in the WADA code, that cover a variety of substances and methods. Its under one of these catch alls I would say that xenon is actually covered, but I am not a sports lawyer.

S2.5 is a good example:

Growth Hormone (GH), Insulin-like Growth Factor-1 (IGF-1), Fibroblast Growth Factors (FGFs), Hepatocyte Growth Factor (HGF), Mechano Growth Factors (MGFs), Platelet-Derived Growth Factor (PDGF), Vascular-Endothelial Growth Factor (VEGF)

as well as any other growth factor affecting muscle, tendon or ligament protein synthesis/degradation, vascularisation, energy utilization, regenerative capacity or fibre type switching;

and other substances with similar chemical structure or similar biological effect(s).

 

[Justinr]

If I am not mistaken, a product does not have to be on the banned list to be considered illegal. And, it does not necessarily have to be an analogue or derivateive to a producty that is on the banned list.
Someone could probably explain this better.

Thats true - example is Actovegin. Not a named banned substance BUT the method by which is works is (from what I can work out).

Thats where the Xenon debate is interesting. I think the rules state that "artificially increasing" blood Oxygen transport (or something like that) and then specifies some methods / products ("including but not limited to" type of language). Altitude training presumably isn't considered artificial because it is real life for some people but it does increase the blood / oxygen side and is considered natural. As does sleeping in a Oxygen tent, etc. - that too is considered ok, but in my view is not a natural thing. Much like inhaling Xenon gas.

Its a minefield and I'm sure many teams are pushing the boundaries.

 

[Catwhoorg]

M1 is the section there

M1. MANIPULATION OF BLOOD AND BLOOD COMPONENTS
The following are prohibited:
1. The administration or reintroduction of any quantity of autologous, allogenic (homologous) or heterologous blood or red blood cell products of any origin into the circulatory system.
2. Artificially enhancing the uptake, transport or delivery of oxygen, including, but not limited to, perfluorochemicals, efaproxiral (RSR13) and modified haemoglobin products (e.g. haemoglobin-based blood substitutes, microencapsulated haemoglobin products), excluding supplemental oxygen.
3. Any form of intravascular manipulation of the blood or blood components by physical or chemical means.


In the Q&A or the commentary for several years, altitude tents have been specifically used as an example of something that is OK.

 

[deviant]

Tramadol isnt a true opiate which may explain why Oxy is on the list but Tramadol isnt, Tramadol is a synthetic.

With regard to cheating i would think this is fairly simple.

If a drug, item of equipment, method of riding, short cuts, drafting etc are against any rules or laws....be they UCI rules, WADA rules, a particular country's llegislation/laws etc etc....then it is cheating.

If something is not against the rules, not illegal and not on a banned list then its fair game.

 

[veganrob]

I am sure that every team has an expert whose job is to find ways to get around the rules of doping. And the fact that those rules can be very vague creates lots of cracks in which to hide.
I don't think there are team wide doping practices like there were in the past, but this is where the new scientists come in. Pushing the unclear line in the sand so to speak. New stuff is being created every day.
I believe there are certain riders and doctors that are still doing the old stuff, EPO, BB's, HGH etc but with the ABP being such a joke, it is basically a please do not speed. Well too fast anyway. But there clearly are some teams and riders under the radar with protection.

 

[Justinr]

M1 is the section there

M1. MANIPULATION OF BLOOD AND BLOOD COMPONENTS
The following are prohibited:
1. The administration or reintroduction of any quantity of autologous, allogenic (homologous) or heterologous blood or red blood cell products of any origin into the circulatory system.
2. Artificially enhancing the uptake, transport or delivery of oxygen, including, but not limited to, perfluorochemicals, efaproxiral (RSR13) and modified haemoglobin products (e.g. haemoglobin-based blood substitutes, microencapsulated haemoglobin products), excluding supplemental oxygen.
3. Any form of intravascular manipulation of the blood or blood components by physical or chemical means.


In the Q&A or the commentary for several years, altitude tents have been specifically used as an example of something that is OK.

Yep thats the one - section 2 would cover Actovegin in my view, and potentially Xenon as well.

 

[proffate]

This isn't really a matter of debate. Read the WADA code.

ARTICLE 1: DEFINITION OF DOPING
Doping is defined as the occurrence of one or more of the
anti-doping rule violations set forth in Article 2.1 through
Article 2.8 of the Code

 

[Justinr]

This isn't really a matter of debate. Read the WADA code.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. I understand that they're saying doping is a breach of any of the rules contained in the code. I don't think we're debating that, I think we're looking at what might be a grey area, or am I wrong. For instance Xenon seems to be a bit of a grey area to some but not others.

 

[Escarabajo]

M1 is the section there

M1. MANIPULATION OF BLOOD AND BLOOD COMPONENTS
The following are prohibited:
1. The administration or reintroduction of any quantity of autologous, allogenic (homologous) or heterologous blood or red blood cell products of any origin into the circulatory system.
2. Artificially enhancing the uptake, transport or delivery of oxygen, including, but not limited to, perfluorochemicals, efaproxiral (RSR13) and modified haemoglobin products (e.g. haemoglobin-based blood substitutes, microencapsulated haemoglobin products), excluding supplemental oxygen.
3. Any form of intravascular manipulation of the blood or blood components by physical or chemical means.


In the Q&A or the commentary for several years, altitude tents have been specifically used as an example of something that is OK.

+1.

It is obvious that the method or substance don't have to be in the Banned list in order to be called doping, otherwise they would not be able to charge anybody with the Biopassport.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Cheating is still a hard word to use. It's hard to equivocate riding on the sidewalk/footpath and dropping a BB, but they both violate a rule governing the sport. (Further, as the footpath rule seems to be, "its not cheating if everyone does it.")

A rule of thumb I've seen described before is that it is in the wrong side of the grey area if you hide it, lie about it, or avoid questions about it.

Even that definition gets tricky. If the Russian federation uses Xenon and is proud of it, the performance benefit is still the same as a ProTour team trying it out behind closed doors, when the latter is notably skeezier.

___

As far as the WADA list goes, vs. therapy/techniques goes, in my mind, the difference lies in an intervention inducing an adaptation, or being the adaptation. Altitude training is an intervention that stimulates an adaptation (producing epo). Doping is skipping the work and getting the final product ("put in in my veins"). Sleep is an intervention, and the body goes through adaptation (HGH production, among others). Doping is getting HGH through a needle. Massage is an intervention inducing an adaptation. Sports Physcologists are an intervention. The list goes on.

Then asthma medication, or thyroid comes in. I believe an athlete should have access so they don't keep from dying, sure. But should we normalize a person's disadvantages? I don't think so. My legs weigh more than cheetah blades, lets normalize that disadvantage...

Its a definition that works most of the time (depending on your perspective) Painkillers are an artificial block to pain. Taping up an ankle... is okay because its physics and not physiology? Medical instead of biomedical?

Still, a good starting point, I think

 

[doperhopper]

There a whole lot of 'catch all clauses' in the WADA code, that cover a variety of substances and methods. Its under one of these catch alls I would say that xenon is actually covered, but I am not a sports lawyer.

S2.5 is a good example:

Growth Hormone (GH), Insulin-like Growth Factor-1 (IGF-1), Fibroblast Growth Factors (FGFs), Hepatocyte Growth Factor (HGF), Mechano Growth Factors (MGFs), Platelet-Derived Growth Factor (PDGF), Vascular-Endothelial Growth Factor (VEGF)

as well as any other growth factor affecting muscle, tendon or ligament protein synthesis/degradation, vascularisation, energy utilization, regenerative capacity or fibre type switching;

and other substances with similar chemical structure or similar biological effect(s).

How about introducing a list of ALLOWED substances? And if you want to add your favourite one, ask the authorities to test/add it. Harsh, but maybe more effective (at least for the "new stuff").

 

[MarkvW]

Cheating's Been Around a Long Time

http://deadspin.com/1-747-year-old-wrestling-match-was-fixed-1564443256?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

 

[yespatterns]

Best part: "...without any delay or inventive argument." That sort of clause would destroy cycling.

 

[hektoren]

Q: What constitutes cheating? Definition.
A: (In sports) Getting an unfair advantage by bending the rules.
A: (In relationships) Getting a physical buzz from another person than your significant other.

 

[V3R1T4S]

Thats true - example is Actovegin. Not a named banned substance BUT the method by which is works is (from what I can work out).

Thats where the Xenon debate is interesting. I think the rules state that "artificially increasing" blood Oxygen transport (or something like that) and then specifies some methods / products ("including but not limited to" type of language). Altitude training presumably isn't considered artificial because it is real life for some people but it does increase the blood / oxygen side and is considered natural. As does sleeping in a Oxygen tent, etc. - that too is considered ok, but in my view is not a natural thing. Much like inhaling Xenon gas.

Its a minefield and I'm sure many teams are pushing the boundaries.

Is air conditioning natural? Saunas? Heat training can be just as beneficial as altitude.

The difference in my mind is that altitude, whether real or induced, is a stress that the body has to undergo then recover and adapt from. It usually decreases training intensity and recovery. This is unlike inhaling Xenon (or EPO, for example), which seems to be a "free lunch". Just my POV.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

The definition of "cheating" by doping has to be a term of art in the context of the sport of cycling. Therefore common or other conventional definitions of the word don't necessarily apply. For example edge sorting would be cheating in the poker context.

IMHO the definition is - "taking any banned substance, using any banned method, using any banned masking agent or failing to comply with any whereabouts rule, where the purpose of the behaviour was to gain a performance enhancing benefit in cycling competition.

It is presumed that any cyclist who did any one of the above did so for a performance enhancing benefit in competition, unless that cyclist can prove to a reasonable degree of certainty, s/he did not do so to gain a performance enhancing benefit and took all reasonable precautions to avoid the commission of the behaviour in question."

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Regarding Actovegin it is a protein-free extract obtained from filtered calf blood and has an insulin-like effect of increased glucose utilization. It also increases oxygen uptake and the utilization of oxygen.

WADA does not ban Actovegin itself or any substances that have an "insulin-like effect of glucose utilization." Generally speaking anything that one takes into the body has an effect on glucose so they cannot ban it that way.

So it seems to me until they specifically name it as a banned substance it is still OK.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Lance Armstrong admitted having to look up the word "cheat." That does not speak well of anyone who has to ask the question "What constitutes cheating?."