What constitutes proof that a cyclist/team are doping?

[mattghg]

Hi Jociem.

You're a bully, aren't you? Didn't you get enough attention as a child or something?

 

[mattghg]

The facts are these questions have reasonable answers, you just don't accept the answers.

del1962, it seems that you have an imagination even 'wilder' than 'even the wildest imagination'

 

[alitogata]

This is not just for Sky but there's a lot of talk of "no proof" or no "definitive proof"...

So what is proof of doping? A positive test, rider testimony etc.?

We all hear it a lot that there's "no proof" but cycling is littered with cyclists who've been doping and stating their innocence and cleanliness all along.

What does it take to prove doping to the general public that a rider or team are doping?

I would add that "not testing positive" or "passing all the tests" certainly doesn't mean "not doping".

For me the proof if someone is doped are his/her performances. Then come the medical tests, then any or many witness's statements. ( because this is more rare to find).
When I see women f.e with almost men's time records, or men having performances that nobody have ever done before, suddenly, from nowhere, then I know that something is not right for sure. For me, what my eyes see and what the timers count.. is just enough because I there is a limit on what someone can do without drugs.

As for cycling, most of pros are doped, others more, others less, and for sure not all with the same drug.

Because if they weren't they wouldn't be able not only having such performances, but not even finish the (supposed) simplest of the pro races, exactly as even the best of amateurs can't, as well. Because pro races are made to offer show, and the athletes who compete to these races are "made up" accordingly.

 

[spalco]

If he's not doping what on earth caused wiggins'new found hatred of people sceptical of cycling Why has Wiggins moved on every level away fom an anti doping position since he found.out he could ride gts?

I don't have answers for any of the other questions, and it wouldn't break my heart at all if it turns out Team Sky's success is crap. But I think his actions in this regard is completely consistent with human nature. Hypothetically, if we assume Wiggins is and always was clean, I would expect him to talk exactly like he did - complaining about doping while he's a middling rider, being offended by being considered suspicious when he's on top. It's hypocrisy for sure, but that's just his character and not indicative of any specific behaviour imo.

 

[ElChingon]

With Barry, what could he do, sack him on Landis's word against Barry's?

Barry diggs Sky a deeper hole, he got out due to the reasoned decision but any current wrong doing or knowledge of will never surface because he's been white washed with RD. Investigaters had their rightfully used blinders on but much more could of been at least asked before they left him off the hook. Still think his training buddy who still races knows a thing or two from their long talks on those rides.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I don't have answers for any of the other questions, and it wouldn't break my heart at all if it turns out Team Sky's success is crap. But I think his actions in this regard is completely consistent with human nature. Hypothetically, if we assume Wiggins is and always was clean, I would expect him to talk exactly like he did - complaining about doping while he's a middling rider, being offended by being considered suspicious when he's on top. It's hypocrisy for sure, but that's just his character and not indicative of any specific behaviour imo.

Ssshh that sounds dangerously like common sense

 

[horsinabout]

The same as what constitutes all other forms of proof...

Evidence....well we have that with the fact that doping in elite level sport is unequivocal. Evidence should always be reliable and beyond reasonable doubt.

Motive....we have a motive as there are huge financial rewards, dreams and ego's and national support for sport at the moment. Thus cycling is capitalising on this and being supported.

Confession....we have confessions, but confession only usually materialise through a motive.

Medical Science...we have this as we know PEDs work to some extent and can form part of your evidence. Science can show when a performer has drugs in their system.

Sport science.....You can require greater transparency and scientific evidence on improved performance (objectivity)

Forensic analysis....more circumstantial and can take the form of a psychological profile that can include a motive, personality type, opportunity and so on.
On performance outcomes you can use objectivity, changes in power out put, speed, recorded times, change in body type and appearance, the appearance of known side effects of taking PED's, all beyond what any reasonable person would assume normal even following a hard training program and in the absence of the above trancparency in sports science..

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Ssshh that sounds dangerously like common sense

Which part sounds like common sense?

The bit about, "completely consistent with human nature".
Or, how they then said "Hypothetically"
And then went on to say "It's hypocrisy for sure..."

So, Brad is not lying, or ignoring the question to attack his detractors, he is just being a hypocrite. And that makes sense?

 

[Escarabajo]

Why did they give David Walsh carte blanche to surprise visit them?

Why would I care about this? or you think they are going to do transfusions in the buses when they arrive at the start. Do you think Walsh is going to crash the party at 1:00 am in the morning?

Why did they hire Edvald Boassen Hagen?

Why would I care about this? really why???? Who is Hagen? the new Bassons?

If Wiggins is such a lump who's been transformed into a Frankenstein GT rider by Sky, then how did he manage 4th in the TdF while riding for Garmin?

At Garmin he could have used other resources. He would not be the first rider to change doctors. In fact the one used at Sky works better than the one he used at Garmin.

 

[thehog]

I will submit thread as my thesis.

 

[blackcat]

negatives cannot be proven

non negatives neither can be proven

cluster f

 

[mastersracer]

I will submit thread as my thesis.

make sure to give credit to your 'coauthor'

 

[thehog]

make sure to give credit to your 'coauthor'

I will tell them about my good friend masterracer.

Who says smoking is good for you. No more damaging than orange juice. As long as have sideburns when you smoke.

He also says that there's been a 10% drop in power year on year since 2009 Tour de France.

I will get honors.

 

[thehog]

negatives cannot be proven

non negatives neither can be proven

cluster f

negitives can be proven.

 

[mastersracer]

I will tell them about my good friend masterracer.

Who says smoking is good for you. No more damaging than orange juice. As long as have sideburns when you smoke.

He also says that there's been a 10% drop in power year on year since 2009 Tour de France.

I will get honors.

the claim was one cigarette compared to a race in a smoggy city, but I know you're just horsing around with these comments - good one.

 

[The Hitch]

Why did they give David Walsh carte blanche to surprise visit them?

Why did Contador hold talks with Vaughters.

Why did they hire Edvald Boassen Hagen?

Why does any team hire any rider.

If Wiggins is such a lump who's been transformed into a Frankenstein GT rider by Sky, then how did he manage 4th in the TdF while riding for Garmin?

If Lance was such a lump who was transformed into a Frankenstein rider by US Postal, then how did he manage to win the world championships while riding for Motorola.

 

[thehog]

the claim was one cigarette compared to a race in a smoggy city, but I know you're just horsing around with these comments - good one.

I am horsing around. I don't often agree with you but I respect your opinion.

 

[Cyivel]

thehog, class act.